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Germany started the Great War, but the Left canít bear to say so
UK Daily Telegraph ^ | January 6, 2014 | Boris Johnson

Posted on 01/08/2014 6:10:44 AM PST by C19fan

One of the reasons I am a Conservative is that, in the end, I just can’t stand the intellectual dishonesty of the Left. In my late teens I found I had come to hate the way Lefties always seemed to be trying to cover up embarrassing facts about human nature, or to refuse to express simple truths – and I disliked the pious way in which they took offence, and tried to shoosh you into silence, if you blurted such a truth. Let me give you a current example of this type of proposition. It is a sad but undeniable fact that the First World War – in all its murderous horror – was overwhelmingly the result of German expansionism and aggression. That is a truism that has recently been restated by Max Hastings, in an excellent book, and that has been echoed by Michael Gove, the Education Secretary. I believe that analysis to be basically correct, and that it is all the more important, in this centenary year, that we remember it.

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: History
KEYWORDS: archduke; assassination; austria; france; franzferdinant; germany; sarajevo; thegreatwar; unitedkingdom; war; whinywhiningwhiners
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As a FYI, Mr. Johnson is the Tory Mayor of London and heir apparent to current PM Cameron.
1 posted on 01/08/2014 6:10:44 AM PST by C19fan
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To: C19fan

Germany?

Did this person ever read a history book on that war?


2 posted on 01/08/2014 6:13:05 AM PST by VanDeKoik
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To: C19fan
AND ... born in 1964, his teen years were approx 1980 - 1985

The Reagan years

3 posted on 01/08/2014 6:14:19 AM PST by knarf (I say things that are true .. I have no proof .. but they're true.)
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To: VanDeKoik

“Don’t mention the war.”


4 posted on 01/08/2014 6:14:27 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: C19fan
It is a sad but undeniable fact that the First World War – in all its murderous horror – was overwhelmingly the result of German expansionism and aggression.

I'm always suspicious of anyone who uses the phrase "undeniable fact". Because that's a clever little way of saying "no debate will be permitted."

5 posted on 01/08/2014 6:16:23 AM PST by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: C19fan
This year is the 100th anniversary of WWI and 150 years since the Civil war. 60 years ago we were in WWII then Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq... War has not solved anything so why do they try to blame someone on starting war and ignore finding solutions to stop wars?
6 posted on 01/08/2014 6:18:07 AM PST by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: C19fan

In the Dark Ages of the Middle Ages, people were ignorant because of lack of education.

In the coming Dark Ages, people will be ignorant because of education.


7 posted on 01/08/2014 6:18:33 AM PST by txrefugee
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To: C19fan
The war started because Germany invaded Belgium and Austria-Hungary (AH) invaded Serbia.

As Boris says: those powers - the 'Axis' powers - didn't go to war because of the assassination of the Arch-Duke. They went to war because they believed that they were going to gain control of Europe.

The Austro-Hungarian empire seized on the death of the ArchDuke as a pretext, and gave an almost impossible ultimatum to Serbia.

Serbia promptly accepted 90% of their terms. They accepted all the terms that they could possibly accept and still maintain sovereign control over their own army. Austro-Hungary had saved face - there was no sense in which the Axis powers were backed into a corner.

However peace simply wouldn't do. The Axis powers wanted war because they believed - not unreasonably - that they were going to win it. They had a very precise, war-winning plan - the Schlieffen plan - and they meant to use it.

WW1 was a war of territorial aggrandizement launched by the German Confederation and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. They could have had peace, but they wanted war.

We are often told that WW1 began because of a comparatively trivial assassination - but this is not true. World War One was a horribly sincere war of oppression.

Hope this is helpful.

8 posted on 01/08/2014 6:19:01 AM PST by agere_contra (I once saw a movie where only the police and military had guns. It was called 'Schindler's List'.)
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To: C19fan

Just sent it to my brother who is a docent at the WW1 museum.


9 posted on 01/08/2014 6:19:17 AM PST by Mercat
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To: C19fan
It is a sad but undeniable fact that the First World War – in all its murderous horror – was overwhelmingly the result of German expansionism and aggression.

Of course, Britain, France, Russia, Italy and Japan--the good guys--had no desire to expand their empires. None whatsoever.

10 posted on 01/08/2014 6:25:21 AM PST by Fiji Hill
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To: C19fan

Read this book: http://www.amazon.com/The-Guns-August-Pulitzer-Prize-Winning/dp/0345476093/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1389191245&sr=8-1&keywords=the+guns+of+august


11 posted on 01/08/2014 6:27:09 AM PST by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: VanDeKoik
Germany?
Did this person ever read a history book on that war?

You mean, like the Treaty of Versialles?

I went to Austria some years ago, BEAUTIFUL country. At an attempt of humor, our guide, a very sweet dingbat said: "We keep trying to convince the world that Hitler was German and Beethoven was Austrian. Hahaha."

I didn't that was funny at all.

12 posted on 01/08/2014 6:30:47 AM PST by cloudmountain (.)
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To: C19fan

How dare the Germans resist the peaceful British Empire.


13 posted on 01/08/2014 6:34:10 AM PST by Born to Conserve
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To: agere_contra
The Axis powers wanted war because they believed - not unreasonably - that they were going to win it.

The Axis powers were the adherents of the Three-Power Pact--the "Axis Pact"--of 1940.

14 posted on 01/08/2014 6:34:22 AM PST by Fiji Hill
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To: mountainlion

War has not solved anything so why do they try to blame someone on starting war and ignore finding solutions to stop wars?


Wars are like poverty. They come with human nature. The best way to stop wars is to be so powerful that nobody dares start one. But even then, it is no guarantee.

Sometimes bullies want your lunch money. You can give it to them or you can bust a cap in their head, sending a message to other bullies.


15 posted on 01/08/2014 6:38:55 AM PST by cuban leaf
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To: cuban leaf
Five of the belligerents had a Grand-Mother named Queen Victoria.
16 posted on 01/08/2014 6:40:35 AM PST by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: Fiji Hill

World War One began when Germany invaded Belgium and Austria-Hungary invaded Serbia.

Nobody forced them to invade these countries. They invaded them because they expected to seize control of large parts of Europe.

It’s interesting that - even as their Uhlans were raping and burning their way across Belgium - the German propaganda machine relied on much the same rhetoric that you’ve chosen to use.


17 posted on 01/08/2014 6:40:57 AM PST by agere_contra (I once saw a movie where only the police and military had guns. It was called 'Schindler's List'.)
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To: Fiji Hill; agere_contra
The Axis powers were the adherents of the Three-Power Pact--the "Axis Pact"--of 1940.

Right you are. In the Great War, Germany and its allies were called the Central Powers.

18 posted on 01/08/2014 6:43:48 AM PST by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: C19fan

Darryl Bates: What started it?

Col. Andy Tanner: I don’t know. Two toughest kids on the block, I guess. Sooner or later, they’re gonna fight.


19 posted on 01/08/2014 6:44:23 AM PST by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both.)
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To: Born to Conserve
How dare the Germans resist the peaceful British Empire.

The Germans were the aggressors in World War One.

World War One began when Germany invaded Belgium and Austria-Hungary invaded Serbia.

Germany invaded Belgium - not only taking over a sovereign country (and committing vile atrocities against the populace) but also taking control of Antwerp and the Scheldt.

Britain guaranteed Belgian neutrality not only to curb Prussian and French territorial ambitions but to protect the Scheldt - a deep water port close to Britain that could be used to launch an invasion.

The German Confederation reneged on the Treaty of London when they invaded Belgium and brutalized its people. That vicious land-grab (along with the Austro-Hungarian attack on Serbia) was the real start of WW1.

20 posted on 01/08/2014 6:45:49 AM PST by agere_contra (I once saw a movie where only the police and military had guns. It was called 'Schindler's List'.)
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To: dfwgator

“I did it once but I think I got away with it.”


21 posted on 01/08/2014 6:49:21 AM PST by BudgieRamone (Everybody loves a bonk on the head.)
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To: agere_contra
True as far as you go. But you left out some details like “mobilization” and the problems associated with it. The Tsar and Kaiser Bill wanted to back out but were told they couldn't stop what was started. Actually they could have but they didn't have the balls to make the generals stop.
As far as grudges and wanting pay back lets not forget the French were itching to avenge an earlier defeat (Franco-Prussian War).
Of course the Germans thought they were going to win. You don’t go into war thinking you will lose.
You are correct about the Serbs giving them most of what they wanted but it was the Austrians who pushed for war.
Russia wouldn't mind getting a chunk of Turkey.
The truth is that many countries were itching for war for many years. The Germans happened to pull the trigger of a loaded gun that many countries were itching to pull.
22 posted on 01/08/2014 6:52:22 AM PST by prof.h.mandingo (Buck v. Bell (1927) An idea whose time has come (for extreme liberalism))
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To: C19fan

Much like this thread, the posters at that publication are not commenting on the premis of the article, which is the left are a wimpy, lying, truth avoiding bunch of idiots.


23 posted on 01/08/2014 6:52:34 AM PST by subterfuge (CBS NBC ABC FOX AP-- all no different than Pravda.)
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To: BudgieRamone

Basil: Is there something wrong?
Elder Herr: Will you stop talking about the war?
Basil: Me! You started it!
Elder Herr: We did not start it!
Basil: Yes you did — you invaded Poland.


24 posted on 01/08/2014 6:54:07 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: massgopguy

And your point is? If you go back in history, ALL the belligerants, and you and me, had ancestor parents named Adam and Eve.


25 posted on 01/08/2014 6:54:39 AM PST by A Formerly Proud Canadian (I once was blind, but now I see...)
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To: Fiji Hill

So the Left DOESN’T shy away from truth and put their personal spin on things? That is the point of the article in case you missed it.


26 posted on 01/08/2014 6:56:32 AM PST by subterfuge (CBS NBC ABC FOX AP-- all no different than Pravda.)
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To: C19fan
I think that this guy needs to go back and read The Guns of August.
27 posted on 01/08/2014 6:59:09 AM PST by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: agere_contra

Right you are, other than the Germans, Austro-Hungarians, Bulgarians and Ottomans formed the ‘Quadruple Alliance’ (German: Verbund) commonly known as the ‘Central Powers’. The ‘Axis’ was the term used for the alliance of Germany, Italy and Japa in WWII.


28 posted on 01/08/2014 7:01:15 AM PST by A Formerly Proud Canadian (I once was blind, but now I see...)
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To: dfwgator

Over Macho Grande?


29 posted on 01/08/2014 7:05:10 AM PST by lefty-lie-spy (Stay metal. For the Horde \m/("_")\m/ - via iPhone from Tokyo.)
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To: prof.h.mandingo
The Germans happened to pull pulled the trigger of a loaded gun that many countries were itching to pull.

Please note my correction. The Germans didn't 'happen' to pull the trigger. The gun didn't go off in their hand.

World War One began because the Germans invaded Belgium and the Austro-Hungarian Empire invaded Serbia.

The Germans fired the guns of August. They chose to begin what became World War One. Only they - and Austro-Hungary - are to blame.

30 posted on 01/08/2014 7:06:25 AM PST by agere_contra (I once saw a movie where only the police and military had guns. It was called 'Schindler's List'.)
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To: C19fan

I was born in 1940 and some of my first memories are of hearing my parents talk about and cry about WW2. I remember when the pictures of the Jews who were rescued appeared in the newspaper. Even though the Germans are different now I know that I have not forgiven them completely for WW2.


31 posted on 01/08/2014 7:06:29 AM PST by Ditter
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To: agere_contra
It’s interesting that - even as their Uhlans were raping and burning their way across Belgium - the German propaganda machine relied on much the same rhetoric that you’ve chosen to use..

Go back and read my post. How, on earth, can it be interpreted to justify raping and burning? Talk about spin!

32 posted on 01/08/2014 7:08:01 AM PST by Fiji Hill
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To: A Formerly Proud Canadian

Yes, you’re quite right. Central Powers, my bad.


33 posted on 01/08/2014 7:08:19 AM PST by agere_contra (I once saw a movie where only the police and military had guns. It was called 'Schindler's List'.)
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To: agere_contra
We are often told that WW1 began because of a comparatively trivial assassination - but this is not true. World War One was a horribly sincere war of oppression.
Hope this is helpful.

It's helpful. It's a good start. I'm inclined to call World War I a war of opportunism rather than oppression, but your point is entirely valid: imperialist powers went on a rampage of greed and slaughter without a moment's thought for possible consequences. All of Europe's imperialist powers leapt to join the festivities of destruction and death, and all suffered grievously.

Several curious facts:

1.) America ended the European slaughter.
2.) Post-imperial ideological Europe leapt into renewed mass slaughter in short order, and Japan went on an imperial rampage of theft and mass murder throughout half of Asia.
3.) Again, America ended the European and Asian slaughter.

Oh, by the way, whatever became of that America?

34 posted on 01/08/2014 7:09:26 AM PST by Standing Wolf (No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.)
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To: agere_contra

Germany were just the first movers in a war that had all but started.

Russia was in E. Prussia within 2 weeks of Germany entering Belgium. A simple rain delay in the west would have made them the “agressors” if you think about it.

I personally see neither side as innocent. they all worked for war and postured to let the other guy take the fall so their flimsy aims didn’t become the reason it all went to heck.


35 posted on 01/08/2014 7:12:52 AM PST by VanDeKoik
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To: C19fan
I am sure glad that I wasn't born around the turn of century where I could have been drafted by Woodrow Wilson to join the French in those trenches.

WWI mess was a reason why Americans were so isolationist when Hitler and Japan were on the march prior to Dec 1941.

36 posted on 01/08/2014 7:16:43 AM PST by sickoflibs (Obama : 'If you like your Doctor you can keep him, PERIOD! Don't believe the GOPs warnings')
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To: sickoflibs

England too in the mid-1930s, they almost ran Churchill out of Parliament for daring to suggest that Hitler was a bad guy.


37 posted on 01/08/2014 7:18:28 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: Fiji Hill
The Germans used exactly your rhetoric as their lancers were criss-crossing Belgium, committing rape, murder and arson.

They blamed the Allies for their evil expansionist Empires - even while they - the Germans - were committing horrible barbarities and expanding their Empire.

This species of rhetoric - blaming the enemy for what you yourself are doing - is called "projection".

Note that I didn't say that your post justified raping and burning. I said that your post mirrored what the Germans were saying as they were raping and burning.

The Germans loudly declared the moral turpitude of their enemies even as they - the Germans - committed bloody massacres in Western Europe.

It is undeniably true that even today - on this very thread! - people are still excusing the real sins of Germany, on account of the theoretical sins of their enemies.

38 posted on 01/08/2014 7:21:16 AM PST by agere_contra (I once saw a movie where only the police and military had guns. It was called 'Schindler's List'.)
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To: C19fan
It was Germany that pushed Austria to make war on Serbia. It was Germany that declared war on Russia, on August 1 1914. It was Germany that decided it was necessary to invade Luxembourg, and it was Germany that deployed the Schlieffen plan (devised in 1905, incidentally) and sent her troops smashing through neutral Belgium and into France.

The statement, which I think is the extent of the particulars supporting the claim of Germany's war guilt, is full of historical inaccuracies. Germany did not push Austria to make war on Serbia. Germany only declared war on Russia after Russia mobilized and declined to demobilize, mobilization in those days being terribly threatening because of the state of technology closely associated with railroad timetables etc.. The invasion of Luxembourg hardly caused World War I, it was an event in the war after it commenced. The von Schlieffen plan was a war plan, just like the war plans maintained today in our Pentagon and in the staff offices of virtually every army in the world. So what?

This argument about responsibility for the start of World War I has now been going on for century and will continue no doubt with more bad historical analysis.


39 posted on 01/08/2014 7:22:31 AM PST by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: C19fan

Gavrilo Princip. ‘Just thought the name should be mentioned.


40 posted on 01/08/2014 7:27:11 AM PST by onedoug
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To: agere_contra

I think your synopsis is a little too simple. I think that Russia deserves a good deal of blame.


41 posted on 01/08/2014 7:27:17 AM PST by bagman
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To: Standing Wolf
imperialist powers went on a rampage of greed and slaughter without a moment's thought for possible consequences.

Yes, Germany and Austro-Hungary went on a rampage of greed and slaughter without a moment's thought for possible consequences.

All of Europe's imperialist powers leapt to join the festivities of destruction and death, and all suffered grievously.

No they didn't. They leapt to self-defense.

In Western Europe Germany was barely held at the Marne. Civilization itself was under threat.

42 posted on 01/08/2014 7:29:39 AM PST by agere_contra (I once saw a movie where only the police and military had guns. It was called 'Schindler's List'.)
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To: dfwgator

Thank you for the much needed laugh this morning. I can just hear John Cleese’s exasperated voice.


43 posted on 01/08/2014 7:30:13 AM PST by BudgieRamone (Everybody loves a bonk on the head.)
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To: dfwgator
RE :”England too in the mid-1930s, they almost ran Churchill out of Parliament for daring to suggest that Hitler was a bad guy.”

In spite of the pointless debate here on who started it (100 years ago) there were no real good guys in that war, Germany surrendered when German citizens turned against the war, which Wilson's 14 points helped stimulate.

After surrender France and England threw away the 14 points and proceeded to humiliate and cripple Germany for pure revenge which was proven to be very short sighted.

A classic anti-war movie is Paths of Glory which gives a taste as to how little French and German lives were considered worth in WWI.

44 posted on 01/08/2014 7:30:51 AM PST by sickoflibs (Obama : 'If you like your Doctor you can keep him, PERIOD! Don't believe the GOPs warnings')
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To: mountainlion

I don’t know about that. The civil war certainly accomplished something. You don’t see slaves picking cotton on plantations in Mississippi and Alabama anymore, do you? That wasn’t going to happen without war. WWI and WWII combined to end imperialism and European militarism. Korea? The people of modern S. Korea are probably pretty thankful that this war was fought. Otherwise, they’d be ruled by a petty communist dictator who executes relatives (and likely others) for opposing his whims. Vietnam? Well, we lost, but the idea is the same; if we had been able to prevail, we could have saved millions of South Vietnamese from communist rule. Afghanistan and Iraq? The jury’s still out, but so far, Al Qaeda has not been able to produce a large-scale terrorist attack on US soil.

War may not be pleasant, and I agree it should be avoided whenever possible. However, sometimes war is unavoidable. Would you rather have had Hitler dominating Europe? Would you rather still have slaves on plantations? Would you rather still have the Soviets threatening to overrun Western Europe? All of these required war or the credible threat of war to prevent.

The simple truth is that there are people who are ready and willing to fight wars to acheive their goals. Typically these goals are ones that we find undesirable, such as preservation of slavery, domination of other countries, or promotion of poisonous and damaging ideologies. If we’re willing to surrender to such people, we can have peace, but at a high cost. Refusing to fight against these people doesn’t make them go away. Being friendly with them doesn’t make them give up their goals. The only way to truly deal with them, other than giving them everything they want, is to fight.


45 posted on 01/08/2014 7:33:36 AM PST by stremba
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To: VanDeKoik
Germany were just the first movers in a war that had all but started.

Germany (and Austro-Hungary) started a war that wouldn't otherwise have started.

This isn't some theory of continental drift. There were clear aggressors in World War One, just as clear and as stark as the aggressors in World War Two.

46 posted on 01/08/2014 7:35:20 AM PST by agere_contra (I once saw a movie where only the police and military had guns. It was called 'Schindler's List'.)
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To: sickoflibs

Germany surrendered and signed the Armistice only when the Allied blockade had starved the country into submission.

Helped of course by the fact that the Germans had sharply denuded their agricultural sector by taking men off to the fronts.


47 posted on 01/08/2014 7:38:22 AM PST by agere_contra (I once saw a movie where only the police and military had guns. It was called 'Schindler's List'.)
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To: stremba

Excellent post!


48 posted on 01/08/2014 7:39:44 AM PST by agere_contra (I once saw a movie where only the police and military had guns. It was called 'Schindler's List'.)
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To: VanDeKoik

Russia was in E. Prussia AFTER Germany declared war on Russia. You can’t really call a nation an agressor if another nation declares war on them and they invade the nation that made the initial declaration, can you?


49 posted on 01/08/2014 7:40:14 AM PST by stremba
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To: agere_contra

Ok, 1.5 hours on thread. I had better get back to work.

Later guys.


50 posted on 01/08/2014 7:41:10 AM PST by agere_contra (I once saw a movie where only the police and military had guns. It was called 'Schindler's List'.)
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