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Jahi McMath gets feeding and breathing tubes
AP via CBS News ^ | January 8, 2014

Posted on 01/09/2014 6:39:24 AM PST by goodwithagun

A 13-year-old California girl who was declared brain dead after suffering complications from sleep apnea surgery has been given the feeding and breathing tubes that her family had been trying to obtain for weeks. Christopher Dolan, the attorney for the girl's family, said doctors inserted the gastric tube and tracheostomy tube Wednesday at the undisclosed facility where Jahi McMath was taken Jan. 5. The procedure was a success, Dolan said, and Jahi is getting the treatment that her family believes she should have gotten 28 days ago, when doctors at Children's Hospital Oakland first declared her brain dead.

(Excerpt) Read more at cbsnews.com ...


TOPICS: Health/Medicine; Science
KEYWORDS: jahi; jahimcmath; mcmath
Is this ethical?
1 posted on 01/09/2014 6:39:24 AM PST by goodwithagun
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To: goodwithagun

If her hearts still beating it is!


2 posted on 01/09/2014 6:41:10 AM PST by MeshugeMikey ( a Safe..and Sane....2014 To All!)
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To: MeshugeMikey

Her heart is beating because of the mechanics.


3 posted on 01/09/2014 6:46:12 AM PST by Sacajaweau
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To: goodwithagun
The girl's fate is in the hands of her parents and the Lord. I pray for a pro-life miracle to send a message.

Where the hospital lost me is how they responded to her being "brain dead". At that point the parents should've been allowed to take her home, whether or not further treatment was an option.

4 posted on 01/09/2014 6:46:14 AM PST by grania
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To: MeshugeMikey

But her heart isn’t beating.


5 posted on 01/09/2014 6:47:21 AM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people's than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: grania

All the family had to do was fill out paperwork and find a facility. Up until recently they did neither. There are too many legal risks with just letting the family wheel her out of the facility, especially since the hospital is legally responsible for the body.


6 posted on 01/09/2014 6:50:28 AM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people's than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: goodwithagun
the hospital is legally responsible for the body

I hate that a breathing child of god is referred to as "a body". Jamie has a name. This is where I have trouble with the law and protocol. The parents should not be forced to have the child be either in a hospital or funeral home even if they can't or choose not to get more care. If the hospital has given up hope, Jamie should be with her parents.

7 posted on 01/09/2014 6:59:45 AM PST by grania
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To: goodwithagun

From the perspective of the family’s lawyer, it’s more advantageous to have a client - the prospective plaintiff in a medical malpractice suit - being kept artificially alive for an indefinite period than a dead one. In the case of death, the monetary score for the family - and attorney at 30% minimum - is limited by the $250,000 cap. But since they can cite a lifetime of expenses related to keeping her on the machines if not allowed to die, they can sue for billions.

Win-win for the lawyer. He gets to point to a pathetic picture of a Jahi hooked to machines and beat the pain and suffering cap. And, of course, the national name recognition doesn’t hurt for future business.


8 posted on 01/09/2014 7:01:35 AM PST by DPMD
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To: grania

She had a name and it was Jahi not Jamie. She is truly a child of God and is with him now. She has been for several weeks. She is not breathing. Her heart is not beating. I cannot refer to a decomposing shell as a child. That is an insult to humans.


9 posted on 01/09/2014 7:03:47 AM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people's than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: DPMD

That’s what I’m thinking, since I’ve read that the family illegally gave her food and encouraged her to talk, both against post-op instructions. Are they trying to destroy evidence?


10 posted on 01/09/2014 7:05:59 AM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people's than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: Sacajaweau

isnt that what Pacemakers do!?


11 posted on 01/09/2014 7:18:40 AM PST by MeshugeMikey ( a Safe..and Sane....2014 To All!)
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To: MeshugeMikey
No...a pacemaker is a sensory device and gives you an electric shock (same as paddles) to reset the rhythm of your heart.

In this case, think of the heart as a siphon in a circulatory (closed) system. It pumps with the flow. Totally mechanical.

12 posted on 01/09/2014 7:28:15 AM PST by Sacajaweau
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To: Sacajaweau

ah , Thank you.


13 posted on 01/09/2014 7:29:14 AM PST by MeshugeMikey ( a Safe..and Sane....2014 To All!)
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To: goodwithagun
Just think of when you had your molars pulled. The doc said don't do this cuz you don't want to pull the clots out of the sockets. Mom said lie down and we did.

You're quite right....As cruel as it may seem, I believe the parents should have been kicked out of her room.

I'm waiting for a card from Obama AND a "we'll pick up the tab" coupon.

14 posted on 01/09/2014 7:32:53 AM PST by Sacajaweau
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To: MeshugeMikey

One of my friends is about 80 years old. He had one of the first pacemakers. He was maybe 40...They gave him 10 years. It was replaced with updated models a couple times.


15 posted on 01/09/2014 7:34:39 AM PST by Sacajaweau
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To: goodwithagun

It is almost certainly pointless.


16 posted on 01/09/2014 7:36:07 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

“It is almost certainly pointless.”

God can do anything - even raise up dry bones.

EZEKIEL 37:1-10

1 The hand of the Lord was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”

I said, “Sovereign Lord, you alone know.”

4 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath[a] enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’”

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

9 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.


17 posted on 01/09/2014 7:49:55 AM PST by stars & stripes forever (Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord.)
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To: stars & stripes forever

Righto.

If this girl recovers at all, we probably need to re-examine our criteria for designating brain death.

But from the accounts I’ve read, short of a miracle it is very unlikely. With true brain death, body deterioration is ongoing.

I find it odd that prolifers will insist, accurately, that a separate human life begins at conception, based on science. Then turn around and reject the input of science as to what constitutes brain death and therefore the end of life.

It is always possible that brain death is improperly diagnosed, but that’s an argument for better diagnosis, not for return to the old and discredited definition of death as the heart having stopped.


18 posted on 01/09/2014 8:05:37 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan
No matter what happens...and we know that she is dead....that expert pediatrician will say...it was the hospitals fault because they took away food...etc ect.

You have to look into the book that he wrote...It seems that he almost believes that there's no such thing as death. He's just trying to sell his book....and maybe make a few bucks....like a lotta bucks. I can assure you, he's not a freebie.

19 posted on 01/09/2014 8:10:57 AM PST by Sacajaweau
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To: Sherman Logan

Recovers to what state??


20 posted on 01/09/2014 8:12:02 AM PST by Sacajaweau
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To: Sacajaweau

I’m not medical, but my understanding is that if she is truly brain dead her body WILL continue to deteriorate.

If she improves at all, or is even able to be kept at her present condition, she wasn’t really brain dead after all.

But I could certainly be wrong about that.


21 posted on 01/09/2014 8:17:38 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

you’re right. that’s why I’m saying everyone is trying to make a buck..and sell a book....including mom


22 posted on 01/09/2014 8:26:50 AM PST by Sacajaweau
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To: grania
The parents should not be forced to have the child be either in a hospital or funeral home even if they can't or choose not to get more care. If the hospital has given up hope, Jamie should be with her parents.

Where do you keep getting this notion on thread after thread that the parents are fightining to take their child home? They're not. They're fighting for her to continue receiving professional long-term medical care --despite the overwhelming conclusion by every doctor that has examined her that Jahi McMath is in fact dead. Has been dead, is currently dead and is now decomposing.

23 posted on 01/09/2014 8:33:54 AM PST by Drew68
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To: Drew68

What I’m saying is that the proper response from the hospital would be to say that the parents were free to bring Jahi home as they could do no more to help her. Then take her off life support.


24 posted on 01/09/2014 8:57:42 AM PST by grania
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To: goodwithagun
This is interesting (a little graphic):

SUPPLEMENTAL DECLARATION OF DR. HEIDI FLORI OPPOSING PETITIONER'S REQUEST FOR COURT ORDER...

Here's a doctor's blog: Jahi McMath FAQ

25 posted on 01/09/2014 9:38:22 AM PST by Drew68
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To: Sacajaweau

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Of course her heart is beating. You really shouldn’t attempt to speak with authority about a subject of which you are ignorant.

She would indeed be dead if her heart was not physically beating, unless she was given a heart transplant or some mechanical assist device (such as what Dick Cheney had before his transplant). The cardiac conduction system can be functional in profoundly brain-injured people. The fact that her heart is still beating may be an indicator that there is some hope.
There would be no point in having her on a ventilator if her heart was not beating. There is no point giving artificial respirations to oxygenate the blood unless that blood is able to flow whre it needs to go. This requires a beating heart.


26 posted on 01/09/2014 9:52:59 AM PST by Atomic Vomit (http://www.cafepress.com/aroostookbeauty/358829)
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To: goodwithagun

Her heart is beating. There would be no point in having her on a ventilator if her heart was not beating.

Her heart is beating. To make her die, you would have to remove her from the ventilator. She might die quickly, then again she might begin breathing on her own - I have seen this happen.


27 posted on 01/09/2014 10:12:29 AM PST by Atomic Vomit (http://www.cafepress.com/aroostookbeauty/358829)
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To: Atomic Vomit

A machine is beating her heart for her. A ventilator is supplying oxygen to the blood, which is being mechanically pumped. Unfortunately because the brain is no longer functioning, the other organs aren’t being “told” what to do by the brain. Eventually the organs will decay like her brain. Let’s not forget that the skin is an organ.


28 posted on 01/09/2014 10:20:28 AM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people's than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: goodwithagun

Show me where it has been stated by a reputable source that “a machine is beating her heart for her”.
You don’t know what you are talking about.


29 posted on 01/09/2014 10:56:32 AM PST by Atomic Vomit (http://www.cafepress.com/aroostookbeauty/358829)
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To: goodwithagun

A ventilator pushes oxygen into the lungs at certain prescribed rates and pressures. The lungs(as long as they are perfused by a beating heart) perform the actual gas exchange of oxygen/CO2. A ventilator only does the mechanical act of moving air in and out. The body does the rest.


30 posted on 01/09/2014 11:00:51 AM PST by Atomic Vomit (http://www.cafepress.com/aroostookbeauty/358829)
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To: Atomic Vomit

You might want to research what brain death means for other organs.


31 posted on 01/09/2014 11:01:58 AM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people's than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: goodwithagun

I know what brain death means. I also have quite a good understanding about how the human body works. I have a very good understanding of the mechanics behind most of the equipment found in an intensive care unit and the appropriate use thereof.

What I don’t know is the location of the human soul. Only God knows that.


32 posted on 01/09/2014 11:11:26 AM PST by Atomic Vomit (http://www.cafepress.com/aroostookbeauty/358829)
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To: Atomic Vomit

http://www.donorrecovery.org/learn/understanding-brain-death/


33 posted on 01/09/2014 12:18:45 PM PST by Sacajaweau
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To: Sacajaweau

I know a fair amount about brain death already thanks. Organ donation too. I happen to have seen the organ donation ghouls at work pushing for early withdrawal of life-support for those who were NOT brain dead by attempting to influence grieving families.
That is truly disgusting.
So, still think her heart isn’t beating? Some machine mechanically pumping it for her?(that truly would be a waste of time and money).

Where is the human soul located? Do doctors know? Scientists maybe?

I sure don’t know. Do you?


34 posted on 01/09/2014 12:38:16 PM PST by Atomic Vomit (http://www.cafepress.com/aroostookbeauty/358829)
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To: grania

Let me repeat the other poster: THEY ARE NOT FIGHTING TO BRING HER HOME. Also, they don’t want her off life support they want her ON it. If your argument is that they want her home to die then there is no argument. You’re making something up.


35 posted on 01/09/2014 1:07:01 PM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people's than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: Atomic Vomit

Well you must be an expert then. I know one when I see one making anonymous posts on the Internet. Go to go now, it’s time for my bikini shoot for the Sports Illustrated cover.


36 posted on 01/09/2014 1:09:57 PM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people's than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: goodwithagun

Not an expert, not claiming to be one. I have some knowledge and experience that’s all.

So, can you tell me more about the machine that’s pumping her heart? Or would that make you late for your close-up?


37 posted on 01/09/2014 1:34:18 PM PST by Atomic Vomit (http://www.cafepress.com/aroostookbeauty/358829)
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To: Atomic Vomit

If you have knowledge you would not be making those statements. Goodnight.


38 posted on 01/09/2014 4:59:57 PM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people's than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: goodwithagun

I believe this young girl is, sadly, “brain dead,” just as doctors have determined her to be. I hope I’m wrong; I hope for a miracle.

But, the family is not to blame for this tragedy. The hospital is responsible.


39 posted on 01/09/2014 9:17:03 PM PST by Tired of Taxes
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To: Tired of Taxes

We have no indication yet that the hospital is at fault.


40 posted on 01/10/2014 3:08:59 AM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people's than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: Drew68

The longer this goes on, the more I will believe her parents just want $$$. If she lived and was severely injured by the surgeries, they would get more money than if she died. also, they are still fooling the public and raising money from donations. The lawyer should be disbarred, if that is possible.


41 posted on 01/10/2014 5:42:27 AM PST by PghBaldy (12/14 - 930am -rampage begins... 12/15 - 1030am - Obama's advance team scouts photo-op locations.)
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To: PghBaldy

The lawyer will not even say what kind of facility, let alone which one, she is in. Probably because no one would take her. She’s probably in the backroom of a barbershop in Oakland.


42 posted on 01/10/2014 5:54:19 AM PST by PghBaldy (12/14 - 930am -rampage begins... 12/15 - 1030am - Obama's advance team scouts photo-op locations.)
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To: goodwithagun

I noticed that some here are willing to blame the family without any evidence, but unwilling to hold the hospital responsible.

A 13-year-old passed away after a low-risk, elective surgery while she was recovering in the hospital. The hospital is responsible.


43 posted on 01/10/2014 10:43:54 AM PST by Tired of Taxes
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To: Tired of Taxes

We don’t know who is responsible until all of the facts are released. In fact, this might be one of those terrible tragedies in which nobody is responsible.

This is not a low risk surgery. Her tonsils and adenoids were removed, and her uvula was reduced or removed as well. Basically the docs made her airway larger to help alleviate sleep apnea, a condition that could have been cured with weight loss. Her obesity added to the risk.


44 posted on 01/10/2014 10:59:56 AM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people's than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: goodwithagun
Her tonsils and adenoids were removed, and her uvula was reduced or removed as well. Basically the docs made her airway larger to help alleviate sleep apnea, a condition that could have been cured with weight loss.

Yes, and as I pointed out on other threads, the surgery she had (known as UPPP) has a high risk of complications but a mortality rate of only 0.2%.

Her obesity added to the risk.

If that is the case, then the surgeon should not have performed the surgery. Any way we look at it, the hospital will be held responsible.

BTW, there was another case at the same hospital that involved a younger girl undergoing only a tonsillectomy and ending up in a similar state, except that she has some brain activity. In that case, the hospital settled with the family.

45 posted on 01/10/2014 1:14:22 PM PST by Tired of Taxes
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To: Tired of Taxes

I’m not saying that the hospital is innocent. I am saying that we have to consider all possibilities until the facts are known. All we have is an obese mom who wanted a quick fix for her obese daughter, marching around wearing a t-shirt with her dead daughter’s picture on it. Based on my observations of the family, it is not a stretch to think that they might be culpable. If the hospital is at fault, I hope the family sues.


46 posted on 01/10/2014 4:53:15 PM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people's than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: goodwithagun

The mother brought her daughter to a pediatrician who referred her to an ear, nose, and throat specialist (a surgeon). If a patient is deemed a candidate at all for a particular type of surgery, of course a surgeon will tell the patient that surgery is the best option.

I’ve had to deal with many surgeons. We lost my father to what turned out to be an unnecessary cancer-related surgery. (One surgeon insisted it was necessary. Afterward others said it probably wasn’t.)

I am lucky to have found surgeons I trust completely.

I don’t know why anyone dislikes the mother so much. I don’t know the woman, but my heart goes out to her and the rest of the family. I have been in the desperate position of trying to “save” a family member when something happened that shouldn’t have happened at a hospital.


47 posted on 01/10/2014 10:05:35 PM PST by Tired of Taxes
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To: Tired of Taxes

There are risks for every surgery, and there were probably a lot of paper work and signatures pre-surgery.

The medical profession is not sainted. Docs push for surgeries to try out the latest techniques, and I believe a doc used my grandmother as a guinea pig decades ago. In the very least they will prescribe meds with dangerous and fatal side effects for issues that can be cured with simple lifestyle changes. I’m no fan of some of the profession’s tactics. That stated, the med business is under a lot of fire. Some docs must treat Medicaid and Medicare patients, even though the lose money doing so. My aunt, who is a nurse and runs my uncle’s very successful med office, said that they are reimbursed less today than they were 15 years ago. Refuse these patients, get a law suit. My uncle recently was hit with a malpractice suit as well. Ten thousand because his partner MIGHT have messed up a vasectomy three years ago. Juries treat malpractice insurance like the lottery. For the record, I’m a big alternative medicine fan.

In my urban community I see people like Jahi’s family all the time. Memorial t-shirts are part of their everyday wardrobes. We have a family that marches in front of the police station every year on the anniversary of a drug deal gone wrong death. The police could never get enough information from the “no snitchin’” witnesses. The family knows who killed their loved one, everybody knows that the family knows. But in true urbanite fashion they must wear shirts, carry signs, and demand justice because the police are too racist to solve the case. Jahi’s family reminds me of this.

We both have personal experiences that have shaded our views of this situation. We’re human, that’s what we do.


48 posted on 01/11/2014 4:18:56 AM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people's than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: goodwithagun
The family’s attorney Christopher Dolan political contributions:

2012

2010

2008

Picture of his office lobby. Why do those signs look familiar?


49 posted on 01/11/2014 5:26:25 AM PST by MD Expat in PA
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To: goodwithagun
We both have personal experiences that have shaded our views of this situation. We’re human, that’s what we do.

Agreed. That's true for everyone. In my case, I'm remembering what happened to not only my father but another close relative - how the hospital staff caused their deaths while they were in the care of a hospital. Of course the surgeon and the hospital staff weren't willing to take the blame. They kept blaming other things.

There are risks for every surgery, and there were probably a lot of paper work and signatures pre-surgery.

Without a doubt. But, even with all of that paperwork, the hospital (and/or surgeon) will have to pay if any culpability at all is found. And, any way we slice it, there will be culpability found. According to what I read years ago, contrary to popular opinion, most malpractice claims are denied and lawsuits never go anywhere. Plus, lawyers don't want to handle cases that are too complicated (as in my father's case). IOW, there are far more mistakes being made in hospitals than there are lawsuits.

But, when a 13yo - who wasn't terminally ill going into the hospital - dies after an elective surgery while in the care of hospital staff, the hospital and/or surgeon is going to pay. And they know it. They'll probably offer a settlement.

I agree with you, btw, about the medical establishment. (I had no choice but to go to extremes with conventional medicine and surgeries myself.)

Like you, I have a close relative who's a good physician. And, actually, my whole family exists here in this country because one ancestor came here and established himself as a well-respected doctor - in the old days, when doctors made home visits. When I was ill, eventually I found a good team of doctors and surgeons, all of whom I consider my heroes. So, I do respect doctors and surgeons and nurses. But, as in every profession, a few should not be practicing at all, and even the best make mistakes sometimes.

50 posted on 01/11/2014 9:55:32 AM PST by Tired of Taxes
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