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Why I Cannot Support CCW Permits
Market Ticker ^ | 01/16/2014 | Karl Denniger

Posted on 01/16/2014 10:42:36 AM PST by Rusty0604

According to Filippidis and his wife, Kally, they noticed an unmarked patrol car tailing them while traveling for Christmas and a family wedding in Woodridge, N.J. He claims the police car stayed with them for ten minutes.

“We weren’t speeding. In fact, lots of other cars were whizzing past,” Filippidis told the Tampa Tribune.

Eventually, the car’s emergency lights came on and he pulled the car over. The officer was reportedly with the Transportation Authority Police, “Maryland’s version of the New York-New Jersey Port Authority,” according to the report.

It appears he was pulled over because of either an automated or manual random license-plate look-up by the cops, and when they did so his license was coded, as they all are, to show that he had a CCW permit.

There's nothing unlawful about having a CCW permit nor does it generate probable cause for a traffic stop. That doesn't matter in this case, because it did generate a traffic stop. And then the cop ultimately, when the driver says he doesn't have it with him and his wife (asked separately) doesn't know where it is, turns that stop into a full and complete search of the vehicle and everything in it.

The end result? No arrest or citation, but 90 minutes of being detained and searched.

(Excerpt) Read more at market-ticker.org ...


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: banglist; denninger; donutwatch; guncontrol; johnfilippidis; policeoversteps; ticker
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1 posted on 01/16/2014 10:42:36 AM PST by Rusty0604
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To: Rusty0604

I agree.

I never applied for ‘permission’ to carry.

It would just put me on another list.

And if I have to ask permission, then my right has already been enfringed upon.


2 posted on 01/16/2014 10:47:34 AM PST by maine yankee (I got my Governor at 'Marden's')
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To: Rusty0604

Good article. It is a grave mistake to let any law enforcement officer search your car, your home, or any of your belongings without a paper (viewable) signed search warrant. People need to be seriously disabused of the notion that you’re going to be a nice, good citizen and let the police search you, thinking, “What do I have to hide?”

Nonsense! No probable cause, no search warrant — NO SEARCH — ever!

When will people learn?


3 posted on 01/16/2014 10:49:52 AM PST by Obadiah (I Like Ted.)
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To: Rusty0604

However, this same turd cops “don’t have the time” to chase down criminals who are living in this country illegally. They are too busy harassing law-abiding Americans. I’m getting sick of this crap. 90 minutes?


4 posted on 01/16/2014 10:52:57 AM PST by FlingWingFlyer (Where are Holder's "po folks" getting the I.D.s to sign up for ObamaCare?)
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To: Obadiah

Just politely say no, followed by “lawyer” if it goes south.


5 posted on 01/16/2014 10:54:55 AM PST by Resolute Conservative
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To: Rusty0604

Police State edges closer.


6 posted on 01/16/2014 10:55:12 AM PST by MarMema ("If Americans really wanted Obamacare, you wouldn't need a law to make them buy it." Ted Cruz)
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To: maine yankee

Ditto.


7 posted on 01/16/2014 10:57:30 AM PST by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's Economics In One Lesson ONLINEhttp://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-lesson/)
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To: Rusty0604

PLEASE do that to me! I would LOVE to cash in on a civil rights suit!


8 posted on 01/16/2014 10:57:42 AM PST by piytar (The predator-class is furious that their prey are shooting back.)
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To: Obadiah
There are tons of videos out there like this one

What would you have done differently?

9 posted on 01/16/2014 10:57:49 AM PST by MarMema ("If Americans really wanted Obamacare, you wouldn't need a law to make them buy it." Ted Cruz)
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To: Obadiah

I think there was just a court decision that a federal officer can do suspicionless search and seizure on any vehicle within a hundred miles of the border (which covers almost all of Florida). Extrapolation to State and Local officers should be easy in Court.


10 posted on 01/16/2014 11:00:32 AM PST by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's Economics In One Lesson ONLINEhttp://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-lesson/)
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To: Rusty0604

From:

http://conservativevideos.com/2013/07/what-to-do-when-you-get-pulled-over-dont-surrender-your-rights

Unfortunately, the majority of Americans do not know any of their rights, especially when it comes to a traffic stop. Here is a step by step guide on how to assert your constitutional rights and deal with police during a traffic stop. This article is for informational purposes only and is not legal advice.

1. ALWAYS turn off your vehicle and put both hands on the steering wheel after being pulled over. Do not roll your window down more than half way to avoid the officer sticking his noise in the car and claiming he smells something. If the officer demands you roll the window down all the way it may be a good decision to do so.

2. When the officer asks “why did I pull you over,” never give up your 5th amendment right by incriminating yourself. Never say something like “I think I was speeding.” There is no need to confess anything. If you can, ask why the officer pulled you over before he asks any questions.

3. If you are ever asked to step out of the vehicle, ALWAYS roll up your window, lock your door and close it behind you. If you leave the door wide open the officer is likely to use the opportunity to search.

4. An officer has a right to give you a pat-down for safety reasons once out of the vehicle, but you should NEVER CONSENT TO A POLICE SEARCH OF YOUR VEHICLE. Whether you are inside or now standing outside of your vehicle, the first thing you should say once an officer starts asking questions is “AM I BEING DETAINED OR AM I FREE TO GO?“

5. If the officer asks to search your vehicle your only answer should be “I DO NOT CONSENT TO ANY SEARCHES OFFICER.” The officer will do all he can to get you to waive your rights by threatening to call the K9 Unit. Despite the officer’s claims, refusing a search is NOT probable cause for the officer to search your vehicle. Unless an officer sees an illegal item in plain view or has a reasonable suspicion that there is something illegal in the car, he can’t search your vehicle. IF THEY HAVE TO ASK, THEY LIKELY DON’T HAVE PROBABLE CAUSE TO SEARCH. You have NOTHING to gain if you approve to a search.

6. No matter how much pressure an officer puts on you, continue asking “Am I being detained or am I free to go?” If the officer says your being detained, ask him what crime you have committed. If he doesn’t have an answer for you continue asking the question until you are told you are free to go.

7. Never get out of your vehicle unless instructed to do so. Never speak unless you need to. Never leave the scene until the officer grants you permission. Never touch an officer. ALWAYS film police encounters when you are able to. If an officer searches your vehicle illegally, remember all the details and file a complaint as soon as possible.


11 posted on 01/16/2014 11:00:46 AM PST by bkopto (Free men are not equal. Equal men are not free.)
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To: MarMema

There you go. Good one.


12 posted on 01/16/2014 11:02:06 AM PST by Obadiah (I Like Ted.)
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To: Rusty0604

On a side note, whenever I see a cop following me I pull off at the first opportunity. The reasons are many. It just prevents the type of stuff happening that happened to this family. It forces the cops hand too soon and they usually just drive on by as you pull off.


13 posted on 01/16/2014 11:02:44 AM PST by cuban leaf
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To: Rusty0604
No arrest or citation, but 90 minutes of being detained and searched.

Arrested travel for 90 minutes is most definitely an arrest under color of authority, and in this case a highly illegal one.

14 posted on 01/16/2014 11:07:21 AM PST by Reeses
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To: Rusty0604

>> automated license plate lookup

There goes any probable cause right out the window.


15 posted on 01/16/2014 11:07:39 AM PST by Ray76
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To: arthurus

The search occurred in Maryland, about 1000miles from MD.


16 posted on 01/16/2014 11:11:09 AM PST by expat2
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To: Rusty0604
The end result? No arrest or citation, but 90 minutes of being detained and searched.

And accompanying lawsuit!!!

17 posted on 01/16/2014 11:14:12 AM PST by ontap
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To: Obadiah; Rusty0604

Don’t Talk to Police
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc


18 posted on 01/16/2014 11:17:24 AM PST by 2ndDivisionVet (Jealousy is when you count someone else's blessings instead of your own.)
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To: ontap

“Now, despite having fielded apologies from the officer’s captain as well as from a Maryland Transportation Authority Police internal affairs captain, John is wondering if he shouldn’t just cancel his CCW license.

For a guy who’s not looking for trouble, that’s not an unreasonable conclusion. And it would please fans of gun control by any means. But let’s hope John Filippidis, American family man, taxpayer and good guy, doesn’t cave, because it would be a sad statement about the brittleness of our guarantees — some would call them sacred — under the Constitution.”


19 posted on 01/16/2014 11:17:51 AM PST by Rusty0604
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To: arthurus

That decision is limited to immigration issues, which means that border patrol can conduct checkpoints and stops to look at immigration status. It doesn’t mean they can search for contraband. It also doesn’t relief BP of the responsibility to adhere to the SCOTUS decision regarding search incident to arrest, which is supposed to limit fishing expeditions.


20 posted on 01/16/2014 11:18:39 AM PST by USNBandit (sarcasm engaged at all times)
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To: bkopto
IF THEY HAVE TO ASK, THEY LIKELY DON’T HAVE PROBABLE CAUSE TO SEARCH. You have NOTHING to gain if you approve to a search.

Police should always ask for consent regardless of probable cause, because if given it removes a huge hurdle to prosecution. Giving consent also gives away a huge tool for your defense attorney of something goes to trial. Challenging searches is one of the first steps in your defense, don't give it away.

21 posted on 01/16/2014 11:23:16 AM PST by USNBandit (sarcasm engaged at all times)
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To: Rusty0604

I guarantee you this didn’t happen in Texas, or any other red state!


22 posted on 01/16/2014 11:25:07 AM PST by jda ("Righteousness exalts a nation . . .")
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To: jda

Well in Texas they do the occasional roadside cavity search. Not for guns of course.


23 posted on 01/16/2014 11:29:13 AM PST by Rusty0604
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To: Rusty0604

Did the author refuse to endorse Christy?


24 posted on 01/16/2014 11:32:04 AM PST by Hugin
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To: cuban leaf

Careful, they can try to say they thought you were evading them and use that as probable cause.


25 posted on 01/16/2014 11:32:06 AM PST by Boogieman
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To: maine yankee

Yes...since when do we need anyone’s permission to defend life from evil! Good God! They can kiss my butt if they think I am going to live a life as a victim.


26 posted on 01/16/2014 11:32:43 AM PST by fabian (" And a new day will dawn for those who stand long, and the forests will echo in laughter")
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To: Hugin

Make that the subject of the article.


27 posted on 01/16/2014 11:33:02 AM PST by Hugin
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To: Ray76
There goes any probable cause right out the window.

Wouldn't that depend on the feedback?
A clean report would mean the LEO is left only with whatever he observed, which in the event of a random stop is nothing.
Of course, if something improper comes back it is no longer a random search.

You may mean that the "lookup" itself, similar to an ordinary investigation, is conducted without probable cause and you certainly would be correct. Going one very small step forward, it seems possible that in the near future the response to the "automatic" lookup could include all manner of problems such as failure to file state or fed taxes, over due library books, etc.

28 posted on 01/16/2014 11:33:55 AM PST by frog in a pot (We are all "frogs in a pot" now. How and when will we real Americans jump out?)
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To: Hugin

LOL


29 posted on 01/16/2014 11:34:37 AM PST by Rusty0604
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To: Obadiah

The wife was very unhelpful. The best place for people to start is to make sure they have their stories straight at all times. Apparently the driver in this case chose not to carry, but then didn’t tell the Mrs. Poor form.


30 posted on 01/16/2014 11:37:43 AM PST by Cyber Liberty (H.L. Mencken: "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.")
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To: Rusty0604

And not based on the fact that someone has a CCW/CHL.


31 posted on 01/16/2014 11:41:59 AM PST by jda ("Righteousness exalts a nation . . .")
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To: Rusty0604
... Face red, eyes shining, John pounds his knees. “And he wants to put me in jail. He wants to put me in jail. For no reason. He wants to take my wife and children away and put me in jail. In America, how does such a thing happen? ... And after all that, he didn’t even write me a ticket.”

Because you sadly weren't in what most Americans out here in the large unpopulated vaguely-rectangular Western US states regard as 'America'.

Very sorry for you sir. Consider moving.

32 posted on 01/16/2014 11:42:23 AM PST by The KG9 Kid
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To: bkopto

“If you are ever asked to step out of the vehicle, ALWAYS roll up your window,...”

Except if you have power windows and you’ve turned off your car per step one, you have a problem doing that. So...Turn off the engine but leave the ignition turned on so you have power for the windows, etc.? Would that work?


33 posted on 01/16/2014 11:43:49 AM PST by KrisKrinkle (Blessed be those who know the depth and breadth of their ignorance. Cursed be those who don't.)
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To: Rusty0604
The problem is once your name is on the list as owning a gun its never going off. No matter what you do.

Bottom line don't "sign up" to anything that puts your name on an official government list that you own a gun.

I learned that back in the 80s from the movie "Red Dawn"...

34 posted on 01/16/2014 11:47:24 AM PST by Mad Dawgg (If you're going to deny my 1st Amendment rights then I must proceed to the 2nd one...)
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To: Rusty0604

CCW isn’t a basis for a Terry stop. I notice these people did receive an apology from the police.


35 posted on 01/16/2014 11:47:39 AM PST by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: frog in a pot

>> You may mean that the “lookup” itself, similar to an ordinary investigation, is conducted without probable cause

Yes exactly.

Some Florida municipalities scan every vehicle entering and leaving. Manalapan comes to mind. They began scanning around 2005 or so.


36 posted on 01/16/2014 11:54:13 AM PST by Ray76
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To: Obadiah

Just a guess here but even if he cancels his CCW, he now is “KNOWN” to have firearms and it may or may not stay on his “permanent” record. Just guessin’ but there may be folks who obtained a CCW using a borrowed firearm and for some reason or other never actually obtained a firearm of their own. Are they now “tagged” as well? And would the “authorit-is” believe them if they were told that?


37 posted on 01/16/2014 11:56:23 AM PST by rktman (Under my plan(scheme), the price of EVERYTHING will necessarily skyrocket! Period.)
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To: Obadiah

I’m not sure if this press accounts mention it, but the wife’s big fat mouth gave them plenty of probably cause to search.


38 posted on 01/16/2014 12:04:30 PM PST by Cyber Liberty (H.L. Mencken: "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.")
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To: bkopto

Some questions about this post:

4. An officer has a right to give you a pat-down for safety reasons once out of the vehicle, but you should NEVER CONSENT TO A POLICE SEARCH OF YOUR VEHICLE. Whether you are inside or now standing outside of your vehicle, the first thing you should say once an officer starts asking questions is “AM I BEING DETAINED OR AM I FREE TO GO?“

5. If the officer asks to search your vehicle your only answer should be “I DO NOT CONSENT TO ANY SEARCHES OFFICER.” The officer will do all he can to get you to waive your rights by threatening to call the K9 Unit. Despite the officer’s claims, refusing a search is NOT probable cause for the officer to search your vehicle. Unless an officer sees an illegal item in plain view or has a reasonable suspicion that there is something illegal in the car, he can’t search your vehicle. IF THEY HAVE TO ASK, THEY LIKELY DON’T HAVE PROBABLE CAUSE TO SEARCH. You have NOTHING to gain if you approve to a search.

Questions: Does the officer have the right to detain you while they summon a dog? Is an indication from a dog considered probable cause in which case they can force you to let them see in your car or do they still need to get a warrant?

Thanks.


39 posted on 01/16/2014 12:06:55 PM PST by 2big2fail
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To: 2big2fail
Does the officer have the right to detain you while they summon a dog? Is an indication from a dog considered probable cause in which case they can force you to let them see in your car or do they still need to get a warrant?

I've read that you can be resonably detained for up to 30 min. If a dog is involved, and the dog alerts to your car, then this is considered valid probable cause to search your vehicle. So your constitutional rights are decided by a dog! I can easily imagine that the officer performs some unseen trick to cause the dog to alert to you vehicle. This whole system is screwed up.

40 posted on 01/16/2014 12:29:11 PM PST by bkopto (Free men are not equal. Equal men are not free.)
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To: piytar

Happened to a few fellas in Scranton PA a couple years back. Settled for about 25 grand each. You can buy a lot of firepower and ammo with that !


41 posted on 01/16/2014 12:36:42 PM PST by Renegade
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To: Obadiah

Got pulled over in TN for speeding. 3 year old in back seat in child booster seat. Child seat was raised up on a cardboard box filled with papers. Box was about 3-4” high and bigger than the seat. I put it there so son could look out window between FL and OH as it was a long drive.

Anyway state cop says “what’s up with the child seat? Mind if I look in your car and make sure that seat is secure?” Exact quote.

I said OK.

He immediately opened the front passenger door and started looking under the seat.

I immediately said “what the hell are you doing?” And he replied,”sir, you gave me consent to search your car. Are you now revoking that consent?”

I said “you asked to look at the seat, not search me!”

Long story short: no continued search but three tickets - speeding, improper restraint and tv screen in view of driver. Winnie the Pooh was playing on a mini DVD player on console wedged between the seats.

They are trained to weasel consent searches any way they can.

And make life very painful in you refuse.


42 posted on 01/16/2014 12:45:11 PM PST by Bartholomew Roberts
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To: Rusty0604

I cannot support CCW permits, either. They are an illegal piece of paper in the United States of America.

“...the right of The People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed...”


43 posted on 01/16/2014 12:53:52 PM PST by faithhopecharity (C)
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To: Rusty0604

His tags shouldn’t have been coded to his license plate or driver license or anything else for that matter.

There shouldn’t be a CCW permit.

It should be outright Constitutional that you shall and many carry.

Certainly there are plenty of criminals exercising their constitutional right....


44 posted on 01/16/2014 12:55:29 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously-you won't live through it anyway-Enjoy Yourself ala Louis Prima)
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To: jda

Is Huston in Texas?


45 posted on 01/16/2014 1:10:54 PM PST by sport
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To: Bartholomew Roberts

Oh, man. Good, albeit, painful lesson. Let your experience be a warning to others.


46 posted on 01/16/2014 1:52:18 PM PST by Obadiah (I Like Ted.)
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To: maine yankee

“Man will never be free until the last Banker is strangled with the entrails of the last Politician” - And a lawyer stubbed in for their headstone.


47 posted on 01/16/2014 2:35:49 PM PST by S.O.S121.500 (Had Enough Yet ?............................ Enforce the Bill of Rights............ It's the LAW !!!)
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To: maine yankee
I've been conceal/carrying for the better part of the last 15 years during my daily commute into and out of Chicago.

Never had an incident, and won't unless I get a CCW which is now available in Illinois and get put on some stupid list.

If I have to use my weapon to defend myself, I will. As I've always told my wife: I'd rather you have to come bail me out of jail after I've shot someone in self defense rather than have her identify my body in the morgue.

48 posted on 01/16/2014 2:39:44 PM PST by usconservative (When The Ballot Box No Longer Counts, The Ammunition Box Does. (What's In Your Ammo Box?))
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To: Rusty0604

Any and all power entrusted to government WILL be abused!


49 posted on 01/16/2014 2:44:31 PM PST by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: Mad Dawgg; et al

Bottom line don’t “sign up” to anything that puts your name on an official government list that you own a gun.


And known where they sleep-———with one eye open.


50 posted on 01/16/2014 2:49:02 PM PST by S.O.S121.500 (Had Enough Yet ?............................ Enforce the Bill of Rights............ It's the LAW !!!)
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