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Physicists scoop information from Schrodinger's cat box [Quantum Mechanics]
Christian Science Monitor ^ | January 21, 2014 | Eoin O'Carroll

Posted on 01/22/2014 2:53:50 PM PST by ETL

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To: Leaning Right

Schroedinger’s girlfriends would make an interesting study, too.


51 posted on 01/22/2014 4:28:30 PM PST by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: Chode
thx for putting up with me here

Well, to be honest, I'm actually a little annoyed with you. You promised that you would be asking stooooopid questions, yet all you've been doing is asking great ones! And if you don't cut it out...

52 posted on 01/22/2014 4:28:59 PM PST by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: Bobalu

Oh yeah!


53 posted on 01/22/2014 4:33:22 PM PST by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: ETL
Can I get a Bose-Einstein condensate for my pitcher of Martinis? Rosen likes his really cold. Pody doesn't drink, and Albert forgets to refill the trays.
54 posted on 01/22/2014 4:37:18 PM PST by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: ETL
Whether or not the scientist opens the box is irrelevant, the cat is either alive or dead, not a superposition of the two states.

Variation on the cat experiment: instead of a cat, the physicist stuffs one of his grad students into the box. Does the grad student observing his own state collapse the wave function only from his own viewpoint, with his state being a wave function from the viewpoint of the physicist until he opens the box?

And if the grad student, upon being stuffed in the box, has vowed to kill the physicist if he survives the box, is the physicist's existence a wave function until the head of the department opens the lab door to check on him?

55 posted on 01/22/2014 4:41:11 PM PST by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: Chode
stooopid question #1, i understand how actually measuring/metering could alter an objects state, but... how can observing it(under the assumption it means with your eyes) change it's state???

One theory is that events that will happen in the future (the observation), have effect on the past; so the act of observation is somehow already bound up with the future observed state. (Not a very coherent explanation, I know.)

A good, and highly readable, book on the weirdosity of quantum events is "In Search of Schrödinger's Cat".

56 posted on 01/22/2014 4:42:01 PM PST by Flick Lives (Got a problem with the government? Have a complaint. Get a free IRS audit!)
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To: PapaBear3625

I would just call campus security.


57 posted on 01/22/2014 4:49:10 PM PST by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: Flick Lives
thx... it was less than $6 inc S&H from amazon
58 posted on 01/22/2014 4:58:32 PM PST by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -vvv- NO Pity for the LAZY - 86-44)
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To: Chode
now THAT makes sense...

Now, to drive you a bit crazy, I'll add one more thing.

As I said in a previous post, a human does not cause the uncertainty in where an electron really is. The uncertainty is caused by the light-electron interactions.

The human just notices the uncertainty.

So where is the electron? It is exists somewhere within its movement blur. Right? Wrong! It exists everywhere within its movement blur. It exists everywhere it possibly could be.

And the same goes for every object. So let's suppose it's night, and you are inside, far from any window. Where is the moon?

It is everywhere it could possibly be! Could the moon have been struck by a meteor and fallen into the sun? Possibly. So "part" of the moon's "existance" really is in the sun.

Only when you observe the moon does it come into being in one place. All other possiblities become zero. So in this part of quantum mechanics, human observation really does change things!

This was all stated mathematically by Schrodinger. And it's so weird that Einstein refused to believe in any of it. Experiments have since proved that Schrodinger was right and Einstein was wrong.

59 posted on 01/22/2014 4:58:47 PM PST by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: Flick Lives

Another great book by John Gribbin is The Matter Myth which he co-wrote with my favorite science author, Paul Davies.

Also,
Schrodinger’s Kittens and the Search for Reality: Solving the Quantum Mysteries - by John Gribbin

All are wonderfully written for the intermediate level reader. These two guys really have a knack for making the complex comprehensible.


60 posted on 01/22/2014 5:01:51 PM PST by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: Leaning Right
Only when you observe the moon does it come into being in one place. All other possibilities become zero. So in this part of quantum mechanics, human observation really does change things!

OK... what happens when TWO or more people see it at the same time? then what???

61 posted on 01/22/2014 5:05:13 PM PST by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -vvv- NO Pity for the LAZY - 86-44)
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To: 6SJ7; AdmSmith; AFPhys; Arkinsaw; allmost; aristotleman; autumnraine; backwoods-engineer; ...
Thanks ETL.


· List topics · post a topic · subscribe · Google ·

62 posted on 01/22/2014 5:15:03 PM PST by SunkenCiv (;http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
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To: SunkenCiv
e=mChode2 suck at String Theory...
63 posted on 01/22/2014 5:19:03 PM PST by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -vvv- NO Pity for the LAZY - 86-44)
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To: Chode
OK... what happens when TWO or more people see it at the same time? then what???

I was waiting for that question, and I knew you would ask it! It is night. You are inside and cannot see the moon. So the moon "exists" everywhere it possibly could be, including in the sun.

I am outside. I am observing the moon. It is where I see it, and nowhere else.

So where is the moon? Some physicists say it's where I, the actual observer, see it. Others say that your interpretation is equally valid, and so the question can have no definite answer.

With large objects it does not matter. For you, the moon is everywhere, but it is most probably in its normal orbit, where I see it. For you, the chances of it being anywhere else are real, but very low. So you wouldn't complain too much about my observation.

But as objects become smaller, the chances of a far-away observation increases. If the moon were the size of an electron, there would be a decent chance that it would be observed in the sun, then an instant later past Mars, then an instant later in its normal orbit.

Weird stuff. As I mentioned earlier, Einstein could not accept it. And that's one reason he made almost no useful contributions to science in the last 25 years of his life.

64 posted on 01/22/2014 5:31:51 PM PST by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: Leaning Right

It appears the question is how does the electron know what you are measuring for and why does the electron show up for the test exactly how you want to measure it? Why does the electron want to please the tester? Could it somehow be communicating with us?


65 posted on 01/22/2014 5:37:13 PM PST by Nuc 1.1 (Nuc 1 Liberals aren't Patriots. Remember 1789!)
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To: SunkenCiv

You’re welcome. Thanks for pinging your mob over here. :)


66 posted on 01/22/2014 5:39:03 PM PST by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: Chode

“In science, the term observer effect refers to changes that the act of observation will make on a phenomenon being observed. This is often the result of instruments that, by necessity, alter the state of what they measure in some manner. A commonplace example is checking the pressure in an automobile tire; this is difficult to do without letting out some of the air, thus changing the pressure. This effect can be observed in many domains of physics.

The observer effect on a physical process can often be reduced to insignificance by using better instruments or observation techniques.

Historically, the observer effect has been confused with the uncertainty principle.[1][2]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_%28physics%29


67 posted on 01/22/2014 5:40:08 PM PST by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: Chode
"The theoretical foundation of the concept of measurement in quantum mechanics is a contentious issue deeply connected to the many interpretations of quantum mechanics. A key topic is that of wave function collapse, for which some interpretations assert that measurement causes a discontinuous change into an eigenstate of the operator associated with the quantity that was measured. More explicitly, the superposition principle (ψ = Σanψn) of quantum physics says that for a wave function ψ, a measurement will give a state of the quantum system of one of the m possible eigenvalues fn, n=1,2...m, of the operator \hat{F} which is part of the eigenfunctions ψn, n=1,2,...n.

Once we have measured the system, we know its current state and this stops it from being in one of its other states.[3] This means that the type of measurement that we do on the system affects the end state of the system. An experimentally studied situation related to this is the quantum Zeno effect, in which a quantum state would decay if left alone but does not decay because of its continuous observation. The dynamics of a quantum system under continuous observation is described by a quantum stochastic master equation known as the Belavkin equation.[4][5][6]

An important aspect of the concept of measurement has been clarified in some QM experiments where a small, complex, and non-sentient sensor proved sufficient as an "observer"—there is no need for a conscious "observer".[7]

A consequence of Bell's theorem is that measurement on one of two entangled particles can appear to have a nonlocal effect on the opposite particle. Additional problems related to decoherence arise when the observer too is modeled as a quantum system.

The uncertainty principle has been frequently confused with the observer effect, evidently even by its originator, Werner Heisenberg.[1] The uncertainty principle in its standard form actually describes how precisely we may measure the position and momentum of a particle at the same time — if we increase the precision in measuring one quantity, we are forced to lose precision in measuring the other.[8] An alternative version of the uncertainty principle,[9] more in the spirit of an observer effect,[10] fully accounts for the disturbance the observer has on a system and the error incurred, although this is not how the term "uncertainty principle" is most commonly used in practice."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_%28physics%29

68 posted on 01/22/2014 5:42:51 PM PST by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: ETL

Please ping me to the Quantum Mechanics / pix of cats in boxes threads!


69 posted on 01/22/2014 6:26:34 PM PST by palmer (Obama = Carter + affirmative action)
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To: Nuc 1.1
why does the electron show up for the test exactly how you want to measure it? Why does the electron want to please the tester?

Fascinating questions. Delightful even. And fun to think about. But sadly, it would take someone well above my pay grade to answer them.

70 posted on 01/22/2014 6:37:01 PM PST by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: Chode

Awww, had a collapse of the wave function?


71 posted on 01/22/2014 7:15:03 PM PST by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: ETL

Thanks for the ping!


72 posted on 01/22/2014 7:18:59 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: MHGinTN
LOL!!! pretty much...
73 posted on 01/22/2014 7:22:17 PM PST by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -vvv- NO Pity for the LAZY - 86-44)
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To: Bobalu
Thanks for posting the pics! My favorite...

 

74 posted on 01/22/2014 7:44:00 PM PST by zeugma (Is it evil of me to teach my bird to say "here kitty, kitty"?)
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To: Chode
but checking the pressure of a tire is a MEASUREMENT not an observation, LOOKING a tire and seeing it is soft is an observation...

Now, this is an interesting parallel to the question... When you take the pressure of a tire, air escapes, so the pressure you get is different from the pressure that was in it before you measured it.

75 posted on 01/22/2014 7:46:25 PM PST by zeugma (Is it evil of me to teach my bird to say "here kitty, kitty"?)
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To: zeugma
there you go... better check it again to see how much air you let out to check it! repeat as necessary 8^)
76 posted on 01/22/2014 7:58:24 PM PST by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -vvv- NO Pity for the LAZY - 86-44)
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To: Leaning Right

Above my pay grade too FReeper. I heard about another experiment with two paired electrons. Forgive me my recall isn’t what it used to be but the basics are this, the spin of one electron was altered and the paired electron immediately reflected the change. The communication was far faster than the speed of light and the scientista performing the experiment concluded that everything appears to be interconnected and that when something happens the entire universe is aware of the event. Now that is an impressive idea.


77 posted on 01/22/2014 8:21:33 PM PST by Nuc 1.1 (Nuc 1 Liberals aren't Patriots. Remember 1789!)
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To: a fool in paradise; Slings and Arrows; Glenn; republicangel; Beaker; BADROTOFINGER; etabeta; ...
Ping for the kitty pix.


78 posted on 01/22/2014 8:39:53 PM PST by Slings and Arrows (You can't have Ingsoc without an Emmanuel Goldstein.)
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To: ETL

this description reminds me of manuevring board solutions when doing shipboard operatons - using vectors on speed and position measurement to determine future states of speed and position


79 posted on 01/22/2014 10:19:32 PM PST by reed13k (For evil to triumph it is only necessary for good men to do nothings)
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To: reed13k

Is that Navy talk?


80 posted on 01/23/2014 2:06:34 AM PST by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: Nuc 1.1
spooky action at a distance
81 posted on 01/23/2014 4:44:47 AM PST by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -vvv- NO Pity for the LAZY - 86-44)
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To: Chode

Excellent! Amazon is my go-to place for... well, just about everything.


82 posted on 01/23/2014 5:35:32 AM PST by Flick Lives (Got a problem with the government? Have a complaint. Get a free IRS audit!)
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To: Ghost of SVR4; Physicist

Physicist (courtesy ping) hasn’t posted since last March.


83 posted on 01/23/2014 7:11:02 AM PST by TheOldLady
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To: Slings and Arrows

84 posted on 01/23/2014 9:04:37 AM PST by Daffynition ("If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." ~ Henry Ford)
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To: Daffynition

“In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the
cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat
could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.”

—Terry Pratchett, Lords and Ladies


85 posted on 01/23/2014 9:20:39 AM PST by Slings and Arrows (You can't have Ingsoc without an Emmanuel Goldstein.)
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To: Chode

:’)


86 posted on 01/23/2014 5:53:26 PM PST by SunkenCiv (;http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
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To: SunkenCiv
but i'm trying... 8^)
87 posted on 01/23/2014 6:00:28 PM PST by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -vvv- NO Pity for the LAZY - 86-44)
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