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Posted on 02/14/2014 12:31:39 PM PST by 7thson

I just started reading The Road to Serfdom - just started the second chapter after slugging through the various introductions and prefaces. About halfway through the first chapter, I started wondering – not for the first time – that whenever there is a discussion on socialism, some things – to me – always seem to be missing.

One, how come no one ever does a compare/contrast with socialism and our Declaration of Independence and Constitution?

Two, how come no one really defines socialism? How did it start? What is the difference between communism, Marxism, socialism, fascism, Nazism? I have heard and read how some of these philosophies are products of the right. I believe it was in The End of Racism by Dinesh D'souza that some of these terms were invented and used by the early Soviets in order to discredit those groups not practicing their brand of communism. To me, they have always been a product of the left and no matter how you cut it, they all end up in tyranny.

Three, how did we – as a nation – come to accept socialist ideas and practices?

TOPICS: Chit/Chat; Conspiracy; History; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: books; constitution; economics; hayek; nonfiction; socialism

1 posted on 02/14/2014 12:31:39 PM PST by 7thson
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To: 7thson

Link of interest, with many links to follow, including her family.

Then, research the late 1700’s textile industry in the UK.

2 posted on 02/14/2014 12:39:30 PM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: 7thson
Socialist lies destroy lives and mimic - the 7 deadly sins

A proud look

A lying tongue

Hands that shed innocent blood

A heart that devises wicked plots

Feet that are swift to run into mischief

A deceitful witness that uttereth lies

Him that soweth discord among brethren

There is a special place in hell for community organizers.

3 posted on 02/14/2014 12:47:02 PM PST by x_plus_one (The harvest is great but the workers are few. Salman Rushdie is right.)
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To: 7thson
To me there is just Freedom and everything else. Communism, socialism, totalitarianism, fascism.... are all ways to subdue the individual to the power of the state, and the state usually boils down to the ruling elite. Socialism always tries to make the argument that it is in place for everyone's own good. Funny how it never works that way.

Whenever I argue with a proponent of socialism, sooner are later, they try to argue that theoretically, it is the best system. Socialism never seems to get to the worker's paradise that had been promises, but the very nature of socialism does not allow for dissent. People who do not agree with the system must be either 're-programed' or eliminated. Not matter what else you say, I cannot sign onto a system that by its very nature must oppress the urge of men to be free.

4 posted on 02/14/2014 12:52:15 PM PST by fhayek
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To: 7thson
Communism wasn't invented by Karl Marx and socialism wasn't invented by Robert Owen. In her book The Discovery of Freedom: Man's Struggle against Authority (New York: Day, 1943), which came out a year before Serfdom, Rose Wilder Lane notes that for millennia, much of mankind lived in communistic and socialistic societies and as a result, stayed barely above the subsistence level and always on the verge of starvation should a calamity such as a drought occur. She contends that it was our Constitutional system established by the American Revolution that finally freed people to rise to their potential.
5 posted on 02/14/2014 12:54:36 PM PST by Fiji Hill
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To: 7thson
What is the difference between communism, Marxism, socialism, fascism, Nazism?

I think the key is not the differences but the commonalities.
i.e. lack of freedom.

6 posted on 02/14/2014 12:57:26 PM PST by oldbrowser (Obamacare is Obama's Great Leap Forward)
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To: 7thson
The specific actions of those who, in the late 1800's began to describe themselves as "liberals" and who now call themselves "progressives" began an intensive, direct, and broad effort to erase the ideas of America's founding documents and to replace them with their own set of counterfeit notions. We are seeing the consequences of that movement today, and that provides part of the answer to your final question.

In a interview with Charlie Rose (CBS), the current President, responding to a question regarding what he might have done differently: “The nature of this office is … to tell a story to the American people that gives them a sense of unity and purpose and optimism,” not just “to [think] about getting the policy right” said Obama.

We might try to contrast that almost frivolous statement from the current President with a truly meaningful one from one of our nation's former Presidents whose intelligence, accomplishments, and renown as Author of our Declaration of Independence qualify him to concisely describe the role of an American President:

In his own words:

1801 Inaugural Address of Thomas Jefferson

(Excerpt) "Let us, then, with courage and confidence pursue our own Federal and Republican principles, our attachment to union and representative government. . . possessing a chosen country, with room enough for our descendants to the thousandth and thousandth generation; entertaining a due sense of our equal right to the use of our own faculties, to the acquisitions of our own industry, to honor and confidence from our fellow-citizens, resulting not from birth, but from our actions and their sense of them; enlightened by a benign religion, professed, indeed, and practiced in various forms, yet all of them inculcating honesty, truth, temperance, gratitude, and the love of man; acknowledging and adoring an overruling Providence, which by all its dispensations proves that it delights in the happiness of man here and his greater happiness hereafter—with all these blessings, what more is necessary to make us a happy and a prosperous people?

"Still one thing more, fellow-citizens—a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities.

"About to enter, fellow-citizens, on the exercise of duties which comprehend everything dear and valuable to you, it is proper you should understand what I deem the essential principles of our Government, and consequently those which ought to shape its Administration. I will compress them within the narrowest compass they will bear, stating the general principle, but not all its limitations.
= Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political;
- peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none;
- the support of the State governments in all their rights, as the most competent administrations for our domestic concerns and the surest bulwarks against antirepublican tendencies;
- the preservation of the General Government in its whole constitutional vigor, as the sheet anchor of our peace at home and safety abroad;
- a jealous care of the right of election by the people—a mild and safe corrective of abuses which are lopped by the sword of revolution where peaceable remedies are unprovided;
- absolute acquiescence in the decisions of the majority, the vital principle of republics, from which is no appeal but to force, the vital principle and immediate parent of despotism;
- a well disciplined militia, our best reliance in peace and for the first moments of war, till regulars may relieve them;
- the supremacy of the civil over the military authority;
- economy in the public expense, that labor may be lightly burthened;
- the honest payment of our debts and sacred preservation of the public faith;
- encouragement of agriculture, and of commerce as its handmaid;
- the diffusion of information and arraignment of all abuses at the bar of the public reason;
- freedom of religion;
- freedom of the press, and freedom of person under the protection of the habeas corpus, and
- trial by juries impartially selected.
These principles form the bright constellation which has gone before us and guided our steps through an age of revolution and reformation. The wisdom of our sages and blood of our heroes have been devoted to their attainment. They should be the creed of our political faith, the text of civic instruction, the touchstone by which to try the services of those we trust; and should we wander from them in moments of error or of alarm, let us hasten to retrace our steps and to regain the road which alone leads to peace, liberty, and safety."
- Thomas Jefferson

Now, let us contrast the ideas of Jefferson with those of what you have called "socialism," for in the following words, we find definition of the ideas we see on display in America today:

"When I see the present Socialist Government denouncing capitalism in all its forms, mocking with derision and contempt the tremendous free enterprise capitalist system on which the mighty production of the United States is founded, I cannot help feeling that as a nation we are not acting honorably or even honestly." - Winston Churchill, Woodford Green, July 10, 1948.

"We shall not allow the advance of society and economic well-being of the nation to be regulated and curtailed by the pace of the weakest bretheren among us. Proper incentives must be offered and full freedom given to the strong to use their strength in the commonweal. Initiative, enterprise, thrift, domestic foresight, contrivance, good housekeeping and natural ability must reap their just reward. On any other plan the population of this island will sink by disastrous and agonizing stages to a far lower standard of life and two-thirds of its present numbers." - Winston Churchill, speech, Blenheim Palace, August 4, 1947.

"The difference between what is seen and what is not seen was often noticed by the old economists. What is not seen is the infinite variety of individual transactions and decisions which, in a civilized society, within the framework of just and well-known laws, insure the advantage not only of the individual concerned, but of the community, and provide that general body of well-being constituting the wealth of nations. All this is blotted out by an over-riding State control, however imposing some of its manifestations may be. It is the vital creative impulse that that I deeply fear the doctrines and policy of the socialist Government have destroyed, or are rapidly destroying, in our national life. Nothing that they can plan and order and rush around enforcing will take its place. They have broken the mainspring, and until we get a new one the watch will not go." - Winston Churchill, speech, House of Commons, October 28, 1947.

"It is in the interest of the wage-earner to have many other alternatives open to him than service under one all-powerful employer called the State. He will be in a better position to bargain collectively and production will be more abundant; there will be more for all and more freedom for all when the wage earner is able, in the large majority of cases, to choose and change his work, and deal with a private employer who, like himself, is subject to the ordinary pressures of life and, like himself, is dependent upon his personal thrift, ingenuity and good-housekeeping." - Winston Churchill, speech, Blackpool, October 5, 1946

"Liberalism (classical liberalism) has its own history and its own tradition. Socialism has its own formulas and aims. Socialism seeks to pull down wealth; Liberalism seeks to raise up poverty. Socialism would destroy private interests; Liberalism would preserve private interests in the only way in which they can be safely and justly preserved, namely, by reconciling them with public right. Socialism would kill enterprise; Liberalism would rescue enterprise from the trammels of privilege and preference. Socialism assails the pre-eminence of the individual; Liberalism seeks, and shall seek more in the future, to build up a minimum standard for the mass. Socialism exalts the rule; Liberalism exalts the man. Socialism attacks capital; Liberalism attacks monopoly." - Winston Churchill, Kinnaird Hall, Dundee, May 14, 1908.

"The British nation now has to make one of the most momentous choices in its history. That choice is between two ways of life: between individual liberty and State domination: between concentration of ownership in the hands of the State and the extension of a property-owning democracy; between a policy of increasing restraint and a policy of liberating energy and ingenuity: between a policy of levelling down and a policy of finding opportunities for all to rise upwards from a basic standard." - Winston Churchill, speech in Woodford, England, January 28, 1950.

"It is curious that, while in the days of my youth I was much reproached with inconsistency and being changeable, I am now scolded for adhering to the same views I had early in life and even of repeating passages from speeches which I made long before most of you were born. Of course the world moves on and we dwell in a constantly changing climate of opinion. But the broad principles and truths of wise and sane political actions do not necessarily alter with the changing moods of a democratic electorate. Not everything changes. Two and two still make four, and I could give you many other instances which go to prove that all wisdom is not new wisdom." - Winston Churchill, speech, Bele vue, Manchester, December 6, 1947.

"It is not Parliament that should rule; it is the people who should rule through Parliament." - Winston Churchill, speech, House of Commons. November 11, 1947.

"We have to combat the wolf of socialism, and we shall be able to do it far more effectively as a pack of hounds than as a flock of sheep." - Winston Churchill, speech, 1937.

:Athough it is now put forward in the main by people who have a good grounding in the Liberalism and Radicalism of the early part of this century, there can be no doubt that Socialism is inseparably interwoven with Totalitarianism and the abject worship of the State. It is not alone that property, in all its forms, is struck at, but that liberty, in all its forms, is challenged by the fundamental conceptions of Socialism." - Winston Churchill, B.B.C radio address, June 4, 1945.

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent vice of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries." - Winston Churchill, House of Commons, October 22, 1945.

"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy." - Winston Churchill, Perth, May 28, 1948.

"I do not wonder that British youth is in revolt against the morbid doctrine that nothing matters but the equal sharing of miseries: that what used to be called the submerged tenth can only be rescued by bringing the other nine-tenths down to their level; against the folly that it is better that everyone should have half rations rather than that any by their exertions, or ability, should earn a second helping." - Winston Churchill, London, June 22, 1948.

"Socialism is based on the idea of an all-powerful State which owns everything, which plans everything, which distributes everything, and thus through its politicians and officials decides the daily life of the individual citizen." - Winston Churchill, London, January 21, 1950.

"The British and Americans do not war with races or governments as such. Tyranny, external or internal, is our foe whatever trappings and disguises it wears, whatever language it speaks, or perverts." - Winston Churchill, Speech, Dorchester Hotel, London, July 4, 1953.

"You may try to destroy wealth, and find that all you have done is to increase poverty." - Winston Churchill, speech, House of Commons. March 12, 1947.

"Nor should it be supposed as you would imagine, to read some of the Left-wing newspaper, that all Americans are multi-millionaires of Wall Street. If they were all multi-millionaires that would be no reason for condemning a system which has produced such material results.: - Winston Churchill, speech, Royal Albert Hall, London. April 21, 1948.

"Rich men, although valuable to the revenue, are not vital to a healthy state of society, but a society in which rich men are got rid of, from motives of jealousy, is not a healthy state." - Winston Churchill, speech, House of Commons, April 24, 1950.

7 posted on 02/14/2014 1:03:55 PM PST by loveliberty2
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To: 7thson


8 posted on 02/14/2014 1:21:05 PM PST by SE Mom (Proud mom of an Iraq war combat vet)
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To: Fiji Hill

Rose Wilder Lane - wasn’t she Laura Ingalls Wilder’s daughter (of Little House in the Big Woods) fame?

All those systems, to me, are counterfeit Christianity, created to make a world order where there is no God.

9 posted on 02/14/2014 1:25:23 PM PST by bboop (does not suffer fools gladly)
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To: 7thson

But our FIRST stop — as with ALL failing states collapsing toward slavery — is GOMORRAH! Our final destination is but a short ride away.


10 posted on 02/14/2014 1:28:14 PM PST by Dick Bachert (Ignorance is NOT BLISS. It is the ROAD TO SERFDOM! We're on a ROAD TRIP!!)
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To: 7thson

And Alexander Tyler had some thoughts on that third question:

“A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.

From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship.” “The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance; From abundance to complacency; From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.”

11 posted on 02/14/2014 1:30:30 PM PST by Dick Bachert (Ignorance is NOT BLISS. It is the ROAD TO SERFDOM! We're on a ROAD TRIP!!)
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To: loveliberty2
The specific actions of those who, in the late 1800's began to describe themselves as "liberals" and who now call themselves "progressives" began an intensive, direct, and broad effort to erase the ideas of America's founding documents and to replace them with their own set of counterfeit notions. We are seeing the consequences of that movement today, and that provides part of the answer to your final question.

I believe this statement glosses over the distinction between liberalism and progressivism a bit too much. "Classic liberalism" is much as Churchill described. "Progressivism" grew out of the eugenics movement. The progressives knew that a full-blown Marxist revolution (mandatory for a true communist State) would never succeed in the West, so they decided to try to take small steps to progress the proletariat towards a communist state. Socialism is only a stop on the road leading to communism.

12 posted on 02/14/2014 1:40:11 PM PST by jtonn
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To: bboop

Rose Wilder Lane was Laura Ingalls Wilder’s daughter, and some contend, her ghostwriter.

13 posted on 02/14/2014 1:54:49 PM PST by Fiji Hill
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To: x_plus_one
There is a special place in hell for community organizers.

But can they organize hell ?

14 posted on 02/14/2014 1:59:33 PM PST by woofie
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To: loveliberty2

Excellent definitions. Thanks.

15 posted on 02/14/2014 4:10:05 PM PST by charlie72
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