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Closing the 'free will' loophole: Using distant quasars to test Bell's theorem
Science Daily ^ | 20 Feb 2014 | MIT Team

Posted on 02/26/2014 9:08:05 AM PST by onedoug

Astronomers propose an experiment that may close the last major loophole of Bell's inequality -- a 50-year-old theorem that, if violated by experiments, would mean that our universe is based not on the textbook laws of classical physics, but on the less-tangible probabilities of quantum mechanics. Such a quantum view would allow for seemingly counterintuitive phenomena such as entanglement, in which the measurement of one particle instantly affects another, even if those entangled particles are at opposite ends of the universe. Among other things, entanglement -- a quantum feature Albert Einstein skeptically referred to as "spooky action at a distance" -- seems to suggest that entangled particles can affect each other instantly, faster than the speed of light.

(Excerpt) Read more at sciencedaily.com ...


TOPICS: Astronomy; Science
KEYWORDS: bellstheorem; electrogravitics; fasterthanlight; haltonarp; physics; science; setorrandom; stringtheory
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I actually met John Bell at a conference for Julian Schwinger's 80th birthday at UCLA in the late 1980s. Very pleasant, soft spoken guy.

Very interesting research, though wouldn't contradict my understanding of The Bible in any way.

1 posted on 02/26/2014 9:08:06 AM PST by onedoug
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To: onedoug
"spooky action at a distance" sounds like a lot of dances I went to as a young teenager, just learning how to act properly in a social situation involving the opposite sex. ;-)
2 posted on 02/26/2014 9:13:07 AM PST by Pecos (The Chicago Way: Kill the Constitution, one step at a time.)
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To: onedoug
Science gets weirder and weirder. I'm glad I'm an engineer.
3 posted on 02/26/2014 9:15:24 AM PST by JoeFromSidney (Book: Resistance to Tyranny. Buy from Amazon.)
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; TXnMA

It looks like another article on some aspects of Quantum Entanglement. Bell’s theorem is right there in the middle of it all.


4 posted on 02/26/2014 9:33:55 AM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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To: onedoug

The common impression of the distances involved with quasars is based on the disproven idea of equating cosmic redshift with distance and velocity of expansion. Anything based on that sort of concept is FUBAR.


5 posted on 02/26/2014 9:39:29 AM PST by varmintman
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To: onedoug

So how do they look at the “entangled” particles in order to determine that they are “entangled” when they are at opposite ends of the universe.

If you can know the position of a particle, you can’t know with certainty its velocity, and vice versa.

At the quantum level, measuring a particle’s velocity changes it, and measuring a particle’s position changes it.


6 posted on 02/26/2014 9:39:39 AM PST by I want the USA back (Media: completely irresponsible traitors. Complicit in the destruction of our country.)
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To: FReepers
We're Almost There!


Click The Pic

Support Conservatism, Donate Monthly If You Can


7 posted on 02/26/2014 9:40:47 AM PST by DJ MacWoW (The Fed Gov is not one ring to rule them all)
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To: onedoug

Things like entanglement have been proven by experiments.


8 posted on 02/26/2014 9:40:55 AM PST by TBP (Obama lies, Granny dies.)
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To: onedoug

Quantum theory supports spiritual viewpoints. And it does not deny or oppose the idea that the Universe is governed by certain laws.


9 posted on 02/26/2014 9:42:08 AM PST by TBP (Obama lies, Granny dies.)
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To: onedoug

http://voices.yahoo.com/is-consciousness-quantum-547190.html


10 posted on 02/26/2014 9:43:42 AM PST by TBP (Obama lies, Granny dies.)
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To: I want the USA back
So how do they look at the “entangled” particles in order to determine that they are “entangled” when they are at opposite ends of the universe.

That's what the computer models say and as we all know computer models are never wrong

11 posted on 02/26/2014 9:58:08 AM PST by qam1 (There's been a huge party. All plates and the bottles are empty, all that's left is the bill to pay)
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To: onedoug
-- seems to suggest that entangled particles can affect each other instantly, faster than the speed of light.

If an action on one particle affects another particle instantaneously, no matter the distance, then speed is not a factor. There is no movement and no velocity in that.

12 posted on 02/26/2014 10:07:49 AM PST by TigersEye (Stupid is a Progressive disease.)
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To: onedoug

Take something we can understand: Earth

If Earth were sentient (and who knows maybe it is) and it could “SEE” us, we would seem to move incredibly fast and be able to act upon “particles” that are very distant in a very fast time.

Because our TIME is soo much faster than Earth’s TIME.

Extrapolate that out to these particles. It is possible they act at such a speed we cannot comprehend and so it appears they are acting instantaneously. But our TIME moves so much slower than these particles’ TIME.

If they were sentient (these particles) it would seem to them that we are moving at less than a snail’s pace.

Time is Relative. In time, all things will be revealed and in GOD all things are possible.


13 posted on 02/26/2014 10:08:49 AM PST by SolidRedState (I used to think bizarro world was a fiction.)
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To: onedoug

scientists are so smart and they have phdS etc.

they know more than me. i must listen to them even when they say global warming is real even though I know it is a hoax

all scientists know is how to get more government grants

these morons have no clue what is going on


14 posted on 02/26/2014 10:15:12 AM PST by Democrat_media (Obama ordered IRS to rig 2012 election and must resign)
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To: onedoug

scientists are so smart and they have phdS etc.

they know more than me. i must listen to them even when they say global warming is real even though I know it is a hoax

all scientists know is how to get more government grants

these morons have no clue what is going on

just one thing they say is that the universe exists only when you observe it . so the present determines the past because the past didn’t exist until you observed it in the present. so then the future determines the present. according to what they are saying.


15 posted on 02/26/2014 10:19:03 AM PST by Democrat_media (Obama ordered IRS to rig 2012 election and must resign)
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To: I want the USA back

“At the quantum level, measuring a particle’s velocity changes it, and measuring a particle’s position changes it.”

Please forgive my ignorance when I ask this. I know next to nothing about quantum mechanics.

When they say that “measuring a particle’s position” changes it, is it due to the fact that some new particles are required to measure said particle?

Let me try and explain it this way. Suppose I am measuring an electric circuit. It behaves a certain way under “unobserved” conditions.

Now, let’s say that I want to “observe” a node of the circuit with an oscilloscope probe. When I measure this node, I am actually changing the conditions of the circuit as the scope probe typically has capacitance, inductance, etc. itself.

Now, let’s say I am measuring something “simple” ... like a 60Hz, 5V peak-to-peak sine wave. These new parasitics I am introducing to the system via the scope probe aren’t a big problem. They have virtually no impact on the circuit.

However, suppose I was trying to measure a high speed transceiver running at mutli-gigabit data rates. The same scope probe could cause substantial problems in that the added parasitics will cause the circuit to behave differently.

(Yes, some idiots I used to work with once “solved” a problem by adding a 10pF capacitor to a broken circuit since they saw that adding a scope probe actually made a circuit work ... sadly, that circuit failed torture testing, but that’s a whole other story).

Now, when they say that observing something on the quantum scale has an effect on the particle, is it due to conditions similar to my analogy (i.e. things like lasers/light or what have you impact the particle’s behavior), or am I way the hell off and have far too much to learn :-)?


16 posted on 02/26/2014 11:02:56 AM PST by edh (I need a better tagline)
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To: SunkenCiv

/mark


17 posted on 02/26/2014 11:04:15 AM PST by KoRn (Department of Homeland Security, Certified - "Right Wing Extremist")
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To: onedoug
Interesting video. I haven't watched the full thing through, but saw a couple of the smaller sections a while ago. Mind-bending.

Imagining the Tenth Dimension
18 posted on 02/26/2014 11:22:51 AM PST by Svartalfiar
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To: onedoug

John Bell had 39 electoral votes in 1860. Must be a different John Bell.


19 posted on 02/26/2014 11:39:08 AM PST by Verginius Rufus
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To: TigersEye; Kevmo; Alamo-Girl; TXnMA
If an action on one particle affects another particle instantaneously, no matter the distance, then speed is not a factor.

Well said, TigersEye!

20 posted on 02/26/2014 1:30:48 PM PST by betty boop (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. —Thomas Jefferson)
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To: edh; I want the USA back

Similar to how I try to explain it - the next step is to explain a photon and how it is similar to a quantum particle - we can prove it has mass and acts as a particle, but we can also prove that it is an energy wave and not a particle due to the way it acts.

Taking this to a quantum state we basically have the ability to focus in on one aspect or another of the particle - position or velocity/energy state, but only one at a time (though there have been some recent discussions on this). But once you determine the one, it means that you can’t determine the other without increased variation.

By that time people’s eye’s have glazed over and I’m getting excited and ordering my next drink - shortly thereafter if they haven’t managed to beg off to another subject they are looking for an excuse to leave ... it’s sad. ;)


21 posted on 02/26/2014 1:39:49 PM PST by reed13k (For evil to triumph it is only necessary for good men to do nothings)
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To: Democrat_media

And this is why I get so mad at the politically driven pseudo-scientists. Just like with cops and every other profession that is lambasted (politicians, lawyers, engineers, quality folks, plumbers, electricians, gun salesmen) the bad ones make everyone doubt the honest ones so you can’t trust anyone unless you do your own work or know them personnaly. That leads to no one wanting to go into the field (no self-respecting person would...) which leaves it to the bad ones.

I just read an article yesterday about a huge number of gibberish science articles (supposedly peer reviewed) being discovered in supposedly respectable technical institutions such as IEEE.

Burns me up.


22 posted on 02/26/2014 1:44:56 PM PST by reed13k (For evil to triumph it is only necessary for good men to do nothings)
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To: betty boop

Thank you. It only seems logical. Either the observation is wrong or something is happening apart from our concepts of time and space. I think both things are possible but I have no idea which it is here. In any case speed is an irrelevant concept to this hypothesis. Instantaneous or simultaneous are just other ways of saying ‘now.’


23 posted on 02/26/2014 2:26:20 PM PST by TigersEye (Stupid is a Progressive disease.)
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To: TigersEye

That’s an assumption.

For instance, let’s say that the information from one end of an entanglement gets across 14billion light years in 7 nanoseconds. And it gets across half the universe in 3 ns. We would perceive that as instantaneous and it would take a long time to prove the time-dependence.

Maybe they can affect each other instantly, or maybe they’re just really, superduper fast. If it were beyond our ability to measure at the time, the 2 scenarios would be identical.

The pot of gold behind entangled particles communicating across vast distances so quickly is, well, the ability to communicate across vast distances so quickly. It’s akin to comparing the USsnailMail to the telephone.


24 posted on 02/26/2014 3:19:58 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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To: Kevmo
I'm not assuming that. The physicists have said that both particles act simultaneously and thus hypothesize from that that distance is not a factor.
25 posted on 02/26/2014 3:23:53 PM PST by TigersEye (Stupid is a Progressive disease.)
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To: TigersEye

So, basically, you’re not assuming it, they are. ok.

Wouldn’t instantaneous communication or faster-than-light communication prove to be faster than slower-than-light communication?


26 posted on 02/26/2014 3:33:37 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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To: Kevmo
I believe that is the premise of their theories and observations at this time, yes.

Of course it would be faster than anything that takes time to happen since there is no elapsed time in two actions that happen simultaneously. If in fact they are two separate actions.

27 posted on 02/26/2014 3:40:04 PM PST by TigersEye (Stupid is a Progressive disease.)
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To: KoRn; 6SJ7; AdmSmith; AFPhys; Arkinsaw; allmost; aristotleman; autumnraine; backwoods-engineer; ...
Thanks KoRn. A Halton Arp topic if ever there was one.


· List topics · post a topic · subscribe · Google ·

28 posted on 02/26/2014 6:06:30 PM PST by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
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To: TigersEye; Kevmo; Alamo-Girl; TXnMA; spirited irish
Either the observation is wrong or something is happening apart from our concepts of time and space. I think both things are possible but I have no idea which it is here. In any case speed is an irrelevant concept to this hypothesis. Instantaneous or simultaneous are just other ways of saying ‘now.’

We think alike on these issues, TigersEye. I tend to favor the hypothesis that our concepts of time and space as presently constituted are inadequate. But it could be a measurement problem. I hope we'll find out which it is before too long!

And I so agree that "instantaneous or simultaneous are just other ways of saying 'now.'"

Thank you so much for further detailing your analysis!

29 posted on 02/26/2014 7:43:58 PM PST by betty boop (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. —Thomas Jefferson)
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To: betty boop; TigersEye; Kevmo
I tend to favor the hypothesis that our concepts of time and space as presently constituted are inadequate.

I very strongly agree, dearest sister in Christ! I suspect the answer will be found in higher dimensional dynamics (Wesson et al.)
30 posted on 02/26/2014 7:49:18 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; TigersEye; Kevmo; TXnMA
I suspect the answer will be found in higher dimensional dynamics (Wesson et al.)

Indeed — I find Wesson's work fascinating, and potentially ground-breaking.

Thank you so much, dearest sister in Christ, for your kind words of support!

31 posted on 02/26/2014 7:51:53 PM PST by betty boop (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. —Thomas Jefferson)
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To: betty boop
I tend to favor the hypothesis that our concepts of time and space as presently constituted are inadequate.

As for my own case; I couldn't agree more strongly! lol

I have been told by a friend, who I trust very much on such matters, that time is an illusion. But it is also said that all of this world's experiences are an illusion so I guess time would naturally be a part of that stew pot.

I get a tickle in my gut now and then that tells me it is true and I feel like I'm about to understand it. Then my intellect comes thundering back in and firmly reattaches itself to the "certainty" that all of this is quite real. I suspect that my understanding will remain inadequate for a while. :)

32 posted on 02/26/2014 8:07:05 PM PST by TigersEye (Stupid is a Progressive disease.)
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To: TBP
"Things like entanglement have been proven by experiments"

In addition, it gets proven all the time by divorce lawyers.

33 posted on 02/26/2014 11:55:24 PM PST by SuperLuminal (Where is another agitator for republicanism like Sam Adams when we need him?)
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To: TigersEye

Then by all accounts... it is “faster”. Faster-than-light is faster than we can currently communicate. “Instantaneous” is much faster than that.

No doubt, when the telegraph first started operating in the 1840’s, it seemed “instantaneous” compared to the horse & buggy.


34 posted on 02/27/2014 12:43:01 AM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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To: TigersEye

I’m not assuming that.
***I didn’t say you were. I said it was an assumption.


35 posted on 02/27/2014 12:47:28 AM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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To: SunkenCiv

Sorry I didn’t ping you SC. I will in the future as I like to post science related items.

Thanks. All Good....


36 posted on 02/27/2014 6:09:33 AM PST by onedoug
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To: TigersEye; Alamo-Girl; TXnMA; spirited irish
I have been told by a friend, who I trust very much on such matters, that time is an illusion. But it is also said that all of this world's experiences are an illusion so I guess time would naturally be a part of that stew pot.... I get a tickle in my gut now and then that tells me it is true and I feel like I'm about to understand it. Then my intellect comes thundering back in and firmly reattaches itself to the "certainty" that all of this is quite real.

TigersEye, is your friend who told you "time is an illusion" a scientist, or a Buddhist? I have great difficulty reconciling the two.

One of the greatest physical scientists of the Twentieth Century — Erwin Schrödinger — clearly had a warm spot in his heart for Eastern philosophy — see his What Is Life? for details.

Without getting into theological details, Buddhism absolutely denies any "realist" position WRT the world in which we humans are implanted. Instead, it tells us that whatever we see through our eyes, whatever we gather about the world we live in through our own direct experience, is Maya, illusion. In sum: What we in the West think is real on the basis of observation and experience is a totally false picture of Reality. Ergo, the main business of Reality is to fool us.

But if this is the case, if everything about us is an "illusion," then what is the point of science? Under such a condition, it appears to me that scientific investigation would simply be an exercise in futility from the get-go.

Ultimately, time is a cosmological problem. Eastern philosophical traditions presuppose a Cosmos that has no beginning or purpose. It just "is what it is," meanwhile causing great suffering to human kind without any reason at all. So the best thing a person can do — and ultimately, Eastern philosophy tends to deny personhood altogether — is to escape from the "illusions" of natural Life and simply melt into the great undifferentiated sea of Brahmin....

In the West today, many people like the idea of an "eternal universe" — i.e., a universe that has no beginning and which has no purpose at all in the end. Indeed, the very ideas of beginning or end have zero implication for human existence in this world. The world is just is what it is, playing itself out over time "randomly," in terms of pure materiality and nothing else.

And you can't' find out a single thing about the world, because reason itself, indeed, even personality, are illusions, too.

Buddhism denies intellect; it ultimately denies personality; these are just other aspects of Maya, of illusion....

But you, TigersEye, already know better than that; for you wrote: "Then my intellect comes thundering back in and firmly reattaches itself to the 'certainty' that all of this is quite real."

Again, if Schödinger actually believed all this, how could he account for the fact that he is one of the greatest scientists of the Twentieth Century? Somehow, this situation just "does not 'compute'."

Must close for now. But would only like to add that I received a very great insight into the nature of the problem we are discussing here, from a very great poet. I refer to T. S. Eliot, who oh so truthfully remarked (IMHO) that

Man lives at the intersection of time and timelessness.

Man senses time as serial, linear, and irreversible, just on the basis of experience and "habit."

But God does not.

Ultimately, time is a cosmological problem.

Advice: Trust your intellect on such matters — and your common sense.

TigersEye, I find you a delightful correspondent. Thank you so very much for writing!

37 posted on 02/27/2014 5:37:01 PM PST by betty boop (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. —Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Democrat_media
Beech?

Sweet Gum?

Pine?

Hercules Club Prickly Ash?

38 posted on 02/27/2014 6:11:05 PM PST by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias... "Barack": Allah's current ally...)
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To: betty boop
That is an awful lot to reply to. My friend is a Buddhist. He is my teacher. However the idea that Buddhism teaches that this reality is entirely an illusion and has no existence isn't really correct. It's rather difficult to explain but its real meaning is that this reality has "no abiding existence." ie nothing is permanent.

That is easy to see if you consider how many cells in your body are dying, coming into existence and otherwise changing in every moment. So the 'you' that existed two minutes ago no longer exists. What you are in this moment is different than what you were before and what you will be.

Does that not hold true for everything in the universe? Isn't everything constantly changing? It is perhaps more accurate to say that this world is illusory than an illusion but that is picking nits. This world, Samsara as it is called, does exist but it is a phantom-like existence due to the impermanence I described and as opposed to what is called 'absolute reality' which is unchanging.

I used the word 'intellect' instead of 'ego' because I thought it would be better understood here where the Buddhist view of ego is not well known and is quite different than the Freudian-western definition of the word.

I disagree strongly that Buddhism denies intellect or sees the cosmos as purposeless. As to its purpose I expect most lamas would say that that is a question that is unanswered and that the Dharma is not intended to be a means to answer it. The goal of the Dharma being to directly experience the true nature of existence (as opposed to intellectually understanding it) they would probably say that it is irrelevant to say whether the universe has a purpose or not. Follow the path and see for yourself.

As for denying intellect, I don't know of any lama who is not interested in intellectual knowledge of the world around us as that type of knowledge has many practical advantages for alleviating the suffering of beings. We obviously aren't going to all escape the cycle of birth-death-and rebirth any time soon and an incalculable number of beings need whatever help can be given them. Intellectual knowledge of the Dharma itself is highly revered. However, intellectual knowledge of any kind is by far secondary in importance to the practices that lead to escape from that Samsaric cycle which is the supreme enlightenment.

There is certainly nothing random about Samsara either otherwise the concept of karma would be meaningless and false.

The Buddhists I know have the utmost regard for human accomplishments and endeavors. It is a staple of developing wisdom and compassion in the basic practice of Dharma to recognize the importance of knowledge passed down from one's parents and from the many generations of people who have come before us building a body of knowledge one step at a time that has progressed from starting a fire with a bow and drill to designing space shuttles and nuclear reactors.

39 posted on 02/27/2014 6:18:01 PM PST by TigersEye (Stupid is a Progressive disease.)
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To: betty boop
Thank you so much for your engaging and informative essay-post, dearest sister in Christ!

Great insights into Buddhism and I had no idea Schrödinger had a warm spot for it.

40 posted on 02/27/2014 6:50:29 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: TigersEye
That is an awful lot to reply to. My friend is a Buddhist. He is my teacher.

Get a better teacher. Try Plato or Aristotle.

Nuff said for now.

41 posted on 02/27/2014 7:41:53 PM PST by betty boop (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. —Thomas Jefferson)
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To: betty boop

Gee, thanks. I think I’m doing fine.


42 posted on 02/27/2014 8:09:07 PM PST by TigersEye (Stupid is a Progressive disease.)
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To: TigersEye; Alamo-Girl; TXnMA; betty boop
With respect to the idea that time is an illusion, please listen to betty, she steers you in the right direction. Time is an illusion, or maya, is a central teaching within the occult mystical worldview. All astral plane and/or cosmic circuit riders---Hermetic magicians, Eastern gurus, New Age shamans, sorcerers, etc---teach this idea because by "going within" and mastering the occult rituals necessary for traveling the cosmic circuit they achieve a sense of timelessness and oneness (monism).

The astral plane refers to the Oroboros. As a powerful occult symbol, the Ouroboros is the primal energy field variously known as Chaos, Nu, Brahman and Quantum Void by certain modern pantheist-oriented physicists. This primal energy field is Herme's "above." Some researchers of antiquity believe that Hermes was either Ham or his son Cush

From the time of the ancient Egyptian Orphites (snake worshippers) in the land of Ham, the Oroboros has meant the seething power, creative and/or evolutionary impulse or energy of the serpent figuratively depicted as either a serpent or dragon eating its own tail. The serpent's body is often depicted as the Great Chain of Being and Cosmic Tree of Life.

In modern New Age thought for example, the Ouroboros 'above' corresponds to a number of different astral planes and sub-planes comprising the timeless habitations,

"(of all) supernatural entities, the locale of gods and demons, the void where the thoughtforms dwell, the region inhabited by spirits of the air and other elements, and the various heavens and hells with their angelic and demonic hosts....With the help of ritual procedures, trained persons believe that they can 'rise on the planes,' and experience these regions in full awareness." ("Beyond the Body: The Human Double and the Astral planes, Benjamin Walker, 1974, pp. 117-8)

The Ouroboros is well-known around the world in its' many occult traditions:

"References to this reality are the Dreaming of the Australian Aborigines, the Spirit-world of Shamanism, the Duart of the ancient Egyptians, the Bardo (Intermediate State) of the Tibetans, the Imaginal world of Islamic Esotericism – e.g. the Barzakh (Interworld) or of Suhrawardi and the Mithal (Imaginal realm) of Ibn Arabi – the Universe of Asiyah of some Kabbalists, or of Yetzirah according to others. Other descriptions are the Nervo degree of the Physical State of Theon, the Astral or 2nd Prakritic plane (corresponding to the Linga Sharira or Subtle or Astral body) and the Kama (Desire-Plane) of Blavatsky, the Astral Plane of the Adyar school of Theosophy and of popular occultism, Rudolf Steiner's "Soul World"; and the Vital and Subtle Physical described by Sri Aurobindo and Mirra. These are just a few of the innumerable descriptions of this plane of existence." (The Astral Plane, kheper.net)

Increasingly, modern 'atheist' science (materialism) is sliding into occult pantheism. Modern multiverse theories for example, are grounded in astral plane speculations thus are not true science but occult science. In our time we desperately need to discern between true science, the search for what is true and real, and false science.

The Apostle Paul speaks not of cosmic trees, astral planes and the beings supposedly existing there but of fallen angels, the "spirits of wickedness under the heavens" (Eph. 6:12) and their chief, "the prince of the powers of the air." (Eph. 2:2)

According to Paul, fallen angels are dispersed in a multitude throughout the whole blue expanse of sky which is visible to us – the lower heaven, the dwelling place for the host of fallen angels who have been cast down from the supernatural heaven outside of the space/time dimension.

This means that in esoteric multiverse theories and occult cosmic tree of life conceptions, the whole blue expanse of sky under the supernatural heaven where fallen angels dwell is the Ouroboros/cosmic tree 'above' consisting of astral planes and sub-planes connected by the great chain of being up which the initiate spiritually ascends (evolves) by way of ritual (i.e., transcendental meditation, mind-altering drugs) as he traverses the occult Path of Life or Western Magical Way to achieve a sense of timelessness, oneness, divine status and psychic powers.

43 posted on 02/28/2014 3:24:58 AM PST by spirited irish
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To: spirited irish

What she said was the most arrogant thing anyone has ever said to me in my 59 years of life.


44 posted on 02/28/2014 10:17:40 AM PST by TigersEye (Stupid is a Progressive disease.)
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To: spirited irish

You know even less about Buddhism than she does but you’re pretty darned sure of yourself aren’t you?


45 posted on 02/28/2014 10:21:57 AM PST by TigersEye (Stupid is a Progressive disease.)
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To: TigersEye
I know enough about Buddhism to know that there's nothing there. No God, no nothing. Just an energy field.

Now rather than react with more huffing and puffing, why don't you turn to the Indian philosopher Vishal Mangalwadi for clarification and insight with respect to Buddhism?

Mangalwadi left Eastern mystical systems behind for Christianity. You ought to ask yourself why. Visit his website: http://www.revelationmovement.com/about/

46 posted on 02/28/2014 10:37:52 AM PST by spirited irish
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To: spirited irish

I have a teacher and have been a student and practitioner for 16 years. Why would I look to someone else for knowledge of something I already know intimately? Everything the two of you have said about Buddhism is utter crap. Not one correct view. You sound like idiots.


47 posted on 02/28/2014 10:42:21 AM PST by TigersEye (Stupid is a Progressive disease.)
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To: TigersEye; Alamo-Girl; TXnMA; spirited irish
However the idea that Buddhism teaches that this reality is entirely an illusion and has no existence isn't really correct. It's rather difficult to explain but its real meaning is that this reality has "no abiding existence." ie nothing is permanent.... That is easy to see if you consider how many cells in your body are dying, coming into existence and otherwise changing in every moment. So the 'you' that existed two minutes ago no longer exists. What you are in this moment is different than what you were before and what you will be.

I am heartly sorry if I offended you, TigersEye. Please accept my apology.

So you are a Buddhist. I am a Christian.

WRT the above italics, I would say that there is something permanent about a human being, even though bodily, everything is constantly changing — "So the 'you' that existed two minutes ago no longer exists," as you truly say. That permanent thing is the soul, which is eternal and not susceptible of change. As far as I can tell, Buddhism has no doctrine of the soul, and thus no solid basis for a concept of personality, or personhood. (Which is more than just "ego" or "intellect.")

Consider the reason we know that the physical world is constantly changing, at micro- and macroscopic levels — science has shown us this. Science works through the presupposition that the natural world is "lawful." Though matter is constantly in flux, the forms it takes are constrained by natural laws that do not change. Without this presupposition, science would be impossible, an exercise in futility.

You wrote:

It is a staple of developing wisdom and compassion in the basic practice of Dharma to recognize the importance of knowledge passed down from one's parents and from the many generations of people who have come before us building a body of knowledge one step at a time that has progressed from starting a fire with a bow and drill to designing space shuttles and nuclear reactors.

IMHO (FWIW), the precepts of Buddhism comport with "starting a fire with a bow and drill." But there's nothing in Buddhism that could account for progress from there to "designing space shuttles and nuclear reactors."

Science is the product of Western civilization, which is based on ancient Hellas — preeminently on Aristotle — and (arguably) the Holy Scriptures. There was no natural science in the East until it came into contact with the West.

In short, Buddhism didn't teach you about "cells." And one does not have to be a Buddhist to recognize the impermanence of all things physical in this world.

In the end, it appears to me that Christianity is "realist," and rational. Buddhism is "idealist," a sort of withdrawal from the "pain" of the human condition....

Just some thoughts, for what they're worth to you. Thank you so much for writing!

48 posted on 02/28/2014 10:52:21 AM PST by betty boop (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. —Thomas Jefferson)
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To: betty boop; TigersEye; Alamo-Girl; TXnMA
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1:27, KJB

For fifteen hundred years, Christendom and then later Protestant America, had followed St. Augustine (AD 354-430) in affirming that as all men are the spiritual image-bearers of the transcendent Triune God then it logically follows that each person is a trinity of being — of soul, spirit, and body:

"The essence of the human is not the body, but the soul. It is the soul alone that God made in his own image and the soul that he loves....For the sake of the soul...the Son of God came into the world...." (Incomplete Work on Matthew, Homily 25, Ancient Christian Devotional, Oden and Crosby, p. 153)

In Biblical thought, the body is inert matter organized and vitalized by the soul. A human life is a soul which informs inert matter, thus a body without a soul is no more than a disorganized mass of cells that would quickly deconstruct, said Pastor Louis Pernot in a sermon delivered at the Temple de l'Etoile in Paris. ("Body, Mind, and Soul," Nov. 28, 2010)

The noblest part of the soul is spirit (the heart). Spirit is immortal and self-aware. It can will and think and is freely responsible for what it thinks, wills, and does.

Spirit is the unique property that distinguishes soul from matter. In Biblical thought, spirit allows man to spiritually transcend the natural dimension in order to access the supernatural dimension, thereby allowing him to enter into a personal relationship with the Spirit of God. Through this relationship, man's conscience is cleansed over time, thus enabling him to more perfectly orient the manner of his existence in this world in preparation for eternity.

In Christian thought, a person is a spirit and personality is the total individuality of the spirit. Without spirit there is no person.

Pastor Pernot notes that the key to individual liberty in the temporal sphere is man's spiritual liberty contrasted against a genetically programmed animal-like orientation.

Animals do not have spirits, which are linked to intelligence, imagination, sensitivity, self-consciousness, reflection and the capacity for truth and moral goodness.

A person is uniquely free because he can spiritually transcend matter to access the supernatural dimension as Paul affirms:

"Now the Lord is Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom" (2 Cor. 3:17)

Buddhism

Jesus to Buddha,

"....you took God away from them (and) your espousal of an absence of self is the most unique and fearsome claim you made...You turned from Hinduism because it said there was an essential self, which they called the atman." (The Lotus and the Cross: Jesus Talks with Buddha, Ravi Zacharias, pp.59, 67)

If there is no living, personal God, then it logically follows that there is no source for life, consciousness, soul, spirit and will, or for human dignity, worth, liberty, and property. Without God the Father unalienable (God-given) rights are meaningless. If man is not God's spiritual image-bearer, then he is less than nothing, a conclusion Buddha reached long before Jesus Christ walked this earth:

"Six centuries before Jesus Christ, the Buddha already knew that if God does not exist, then the human self cannot exist either......Therefore, he deconstructed the Hindu idea of the soul. When one starts peeling the onion skin of one's psyche, he discovers that there is no solid core at the center of one's being. Your sense of self is an illusion. Reality is nonself (anatman). You don't exist. Liberation, the Buddha taught, is realizing the unreality of your existence." (The Book That Made Your World: How the Bible Created the Soul of Western Civilization, Vishal Mangalwadi, p. 6)

49 posted on 02/28/2014 12:52:56 PM PST by spirited irish
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To: TigersEye; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; TXnMA
Former guru Rabindranath R. Maharaj, now a committed follower of Jesus Christ, describes his former transcendental meditation ritual and its' terrifying consequences:

"Nothing was more important than our daily transcendental meditation, the heart of Yoga, which Krishna advocated as the surest way to eternal Bliss. But it could also be dangerous. Frightening psychic experiences awaited the...meditator, similar to a bad trip on drugs. Demons described in the Vedas had been known to take possession of some Yogis. Kundalini power, said to be coiled like a serpent at the base of the spine, could produce ecstatic experiences when released in deep meditation — or...it could do great mental and bodily harm. The line between ecstasy and horror was very fine...During daily meditation I began to have visions of psychedelic colors, to hear unearthly music, and to visit exotic planets where the gods conversed with me, encouraging me to attain even higher states of consciousness. Sometimes in my trance I encountered the same horrible demonic creatures...depicted by the images in Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, and other religious temples. It was a frightful experience, but the Brahmacharya explained that it was normal and urged me to pursue the quest for Self Realization. At times I experienced a sense of mystical unity with the universe. I was the universe, Lord of all, omnipotent, omnipresent. My instructors were excited at this. I was obviously a chosen vessel, destined for early success in the search for union with Brahman. The Forces that had guided my father were now guiding me." (Death of a Guru, Rabindranath R. Maharaj, pp. 56-57)

"No matter how fulfilling life becomes, there are always certain regrets when one looks back. My deepest sense of loss involves my father. So much has happened since his death. I often wonder what it would be like to share it all with him, and what his reaction would be.

We never shared anything in our lives. Because of vows he had taken before I was born, not once did he ever speak to me or pay me the slightest heed. Just two words from him would have made me unspeakably happy. How I wanted to hear him say, "Rabi. Son." Just once. But he never did.

For eight long years he uttered not a word. The trancelike condition he had achieved is called in the East a state of higher consciousness and can be attained only through deep meditation.

"Why is Father that way?" I would ask my mother, still too young to understand. "He is someone very special -- the greatest man you could have for a father," she would reply. "He is seeking the true Self that lies within us all, the One Being, of which there is no other. And that's what you are too, Rabi."

Father had set an example, achieved wide acclaim, and earned the worship of many, and it was inevitable that upon his death his mantle would fall upon me. I had never imagined, however, that I would still be so young when this fateful day arrived.

When father died I felt I had lost everything. Though I had scarcely known him as my father, he had been my inspiration -- a god -- and now he was dead.

At his funeral, my father's stiff body was placed on a great pile of firewood. The thought of his body being sacrificed to Agni, the god of fire, added a new dimension of mystery to the bewilderment and deep sense of loss that already overwhelmed me.

As the flames engulfed him, it was impossible to suppress the anguish I felt. "Mommy!" I screamed. "Mommy!" If she heard me above the roar of sparks and fire, she made no indication. A true Hindu, she found strength to follow the teaching of Krishna: she would mourn neither the living nor the dead. Not once did she cry as the flames consumed my father.

---------

One day a friend of my cousin Shanti, whose name was Molli, came by to visit. She asked me about whether I found Hinduism fulfilling. Trying to hide my emptiness, I lied and told her I was very happy and that my religion was the Truth. She listened patiently to my pompous and sometimes arrogant pronouncements. Without arguing, she exposed my emptiness gently with politely phrased questions.

She told me that Jesus had brought her close to God. She also said that God is a God of love and that He desires us to be close to Him. As appealing as this sounded to me, I stubbornly resisted, not willing to surrender my Hindu roots.

Still, I found myself asking, "What makes you so happy? You must have been doing a lot of meditation."

"I used to," Molli responded, "but not any more. Jesus has given me a peace and joy that I never knew before." Then she said, "Rabi, you don't seem very happy. Are you?"

I lowered my voice: "I'm not happy. I wish I had your joy."

Was I saying this?

"My joy is because my sins are forgiven," said Molli. "Peace and joy come from Christ, through really knowing Him."

We continued talking for half a day, unaware of how the time had passed. I wanted her peace and joy, but I was absolutely resolved that I wasn't going to give up any part of my religion.

As she was leaving, she said: "Before you go to bed tonight, Rabi, please get on your knees and ask God to show you the Truth -- and I'll be praying for you." With a wave of her hand she was gone.

Pride demanded that I reject everything Molli had said, but I was too desperate to save face any longer. I fell to my knees, conscious that I was giving in to her request.

"God, the true God and Creator, please show me the truth!" Something inside me snapped. For the first time in my life, I felt I had really prayed and gotten through -- not to some impersonal Force, but to the true God who loves and cares. Too tired to think any longer, I crawled into bed and fell asleep almost instantly.

Soon after, my cousin Krishna invited me to a Christian meeting. I again surprised myself by responding: "Why not?"

On our way there, Krishna and I were joined by Ramkair, a new acquaintance of his. "Do you know anything about this meeting?" I asked him, anxious to get some advance information.

"A little," he replied. "I became a Christian recently." "Tell me," I said eagerly. "Did Jesus really change your life?" Ramkair smiled broadly. "He sure did! Everything is different."

"It's really true, Rab!" added Krishna enthusiastically. "I've become a Christian too -- just a few days ago."

The preacher's sermon was based on Psalm 23, and the words, "The Lord is my shepherd," made my heart leap. After expounding the Psalm, the preacher said: "Jesus wants to be your Shepherd. Have you heard His voice speaking to your heart? Why not open your heart to Him now? Don't wait until tomorrow -- that may be too late!" The preacher seemed to be speaking directly to me. I could delay no longer.

I quickly knelt in front of him. He smiled and asked if anyone else wanted to receive Jesus. No one stirred. Then he asked the Christians to come forward and pray with me. Several did, kneeling beside me. For years Hindus had bowed before me -- and now I was kneeling before a Christian.

Aloud I repeated after him a prayer inviting Jesus into my heart. When the preacher said, "Amen," he suggested I pray in my own words. Quietly, choking with emotion, I began: "Lord Jesus, I've never studied the Bible, but I've heard that you died for my sins at Calvary so I could be forgiven and reconciled to God. Please forgive me all my sins. Come into my heart!"

Before I finished, I knew that Jesus wasn't just another one of several million gods. He was the God for whom I had hungered. He Himself was the Creator. Yet, He loved me enough to become a man and die for my sins. With that realization, tons of darkness seemed to lift and a brilliant light flooded my soul.

After arriving home, Krishna and I found the entire family waiting up for us, apparently having heard what had happened. "I asked Jesus into my life tonight!" I exclaimed happily, as I looked from one to another of those startled faces. "It's glorious. I can't tell you how much he means to me already."

Some in my family seemed wounded and bewildered; others seemed happy for me. But before it was all over with, thirteen of us had ended up giving our hearts to Jesus! It was incredible.

The following day I walked resolutely into the prayer room with Krishna. Together we carried everything out into the yard: idols, Hindu scriptures, and religious paraphernalia. We wanted to rid ourselves of every tie with the past and with the powers of darkness that had blinded and enslaved us for so long.

When everything had been piled on the rubbish heap, we set it on fire and watched the flames consume our past. The tiny figures we once feared as gods were turning to ashes. We hugged one another and offered thanks to the Son of God who had died to set us free.

I found my thoughts going back to my father's cremation nearly eight years before. In contrast to our new found joy, that scene had aroused inconsolable grief. My father's body had been offered to the very same false gods who now lay in smoldering fragments before me. It seemed unbelievable that I should be participating with great joy in the utter destruction of that which represented all I had once believed in so fanatically.

In a sense this was my cremation ceremony -- the end of the person I had once been...the death of a guru. The old Rabi Maharaj had died in Christ. And out of that grave a new Rabi had risen in whom Christ was now living.

Death of a Guru http://www.soughtaftermedia.com/death-of-a-guru.html

50 posted on 02/28/2014 2:13:11 PM PST by spirited irish
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