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Do Most Americans Care If Crimeans & Eastern Ukrainians Vote To Join With Russia?
3/10/2014 | Laissez-Faire Capitalist

Posted on 03/10/2014 7:49:55 AM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist

Like Seek and Find said, Catalonia is set to vote on whether or not to split off from Spain. Scotland has an Independence Referendum coming up in September, Crimea is set to vote nationally on this in 6 days, and Eastern Ukraine will most likely follow with a national vote to join with Russia.

Give it time, and Quebec will try again to become an independent nation...

The world fracturing into more and more countries seems to be accelerating...


TOPICS: Chit/Chat
KEYWORDS: 113th; crimea; easternukraine; foreignpolicy; obama; putin; randpaul; russia; tedcruz; ukraine
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1 posted on 03/10/2014 7:49:56 AM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist; All

What say you?


2 posted on 03/10/2014 7:50:36 AM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

I say it is a conspiracy financed by the world’s map makers.


3 posted on 03/10/2014 7:52:51 AM PDT by A_Tradition_Continues (formerly known as Politicalwit ...05/28/98 Class of '98)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Its easier to control many small countries than it is one large one. Crimea is kind of an outlier in that sense.


4 posted on 03/10/2014 7:54:27 AM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: A_Tradition_Continues
Crimea is not just part of any Eastern European country. Crimea was part of Russia from the 1780s under Catherine the Great. Before that, it belonged to the Ottoman Empire, now defunct. Before that, it belonged to the city-state of Venice, now defunct.

In 1954, when the Ukraine was the Ukrainian SSR of the Soviet Union, Nikita Khrushchev literally gifted the Crimea to Ukraine as part of an internal USSR political deal to secure the support of the Ukrainian party bosses for his succession following the death of Stalin.

This was a purely internal USSR political gift with no international consequences in the 1950s. The Soviet military bases remained Soviet military bases. Khrushchev's unilateral political gift was of no concern to the world until the breakup of the USSR.

The way that Russians see the situation is that Putin is undoing Khrushchev's blunder. What Khrushchev gave away, Putin is taking back, and returning to the Russian fold.

It's important to understand this history. Crimea is the location of Russia's all-weather naval bases, and has been for over 200 years. The fluke of "Ukrainian Crimea" only lasted from 1954 until 2014, sixty years, a blink in historical terms. Before Khrushchev's unilateral political gift, Crimea was never part of Ukraine for one single day in recorded history.

Imagine a dictatorial President Eisenhower, on his own, "giving" NYC and Long Island to Connecticut in return for CT electoral college votes to assure his election. That is how Crimea was transferred to Ukraine in 1954.

Now, Putin is a KGB Soviet Gestapo thug, leader of assassins, and probably the greatest thief in history. But it's important to get the history right in order to avoid mistaking the situation for something it is not, and blundering into a major war. Crimea is not analogous to Latvia, Poland, or even the rest of Ukraine.


5 posted on 03/10/2014 7:54:28 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

I’m waiting for someone to explain to me our interest there, beyond not letting Putin get his way.


6 posted on 03/10/2014 7:55:06 AM PDT by DManA
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

1. So long as the elections are free and fair.
2. When will Flyover Country secede from Forward!stan?


7 posted on 03/10/2014 7:55:07 AM PDT by coloradan (The US has become a banana republic, except without the bananas - or the republic.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Borders have shifted all the time in that neck of the woods.


8 posted on 03/10/2014 7:55:14 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: DManA
beyond not letting Putin get his way.

That's pretty much it. I suspect if Putin loved fags, the State Department wouldn't even care.

9 posted on 03/10/2014 7:55:56 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Moat Americans don’t care if America joins Russia.


10 posted on 03/10/2014 7:56:38 AM PDT by A'elian' nation ("Political Correctness does not legislate tolerance; it only organizes hatred." Jacques Barzun)
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To: Travis McGee

It’s Hitler marching into the Rhineland.

Could anyone really argue back in 1936, that the Rhineland didn’t belong to Germany?


11 posted on 03/10/2014 7:57:15 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Travis McGee

I’m looking at that map. That small coastline Ukraine will have on the Black Sea....is it also majority ethnic Russian?


12 posted on 03/10/2014 7:58:18 AM PDT by grania
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Let the Euro-Wienies take the lead on this one.


13 posted on 03/10/2014 7:59:38 AM PDT by McGruff (Republicans need to show Obama some RSPECT.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

I question the freedom of any election in which an army of occupation is present.


14 posted on 03/10/2014 7:59:48 AM PDT by Last Dakotan
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To: Travis McGee
Imagine a dictatorial President Eisenhower, on his own, "giving" NYC and Long Island to Connecticut in return for CT electoral college votes to assure his election. That is how Crimea was transferred to Ukraine in 1954.

That's basically how Michigan got "stuck" with the upper peninsula. Andrew Jackson gave the much more valuable Toledo strip to Ohio in return for delivering the Ohio vote to the democrats. Ohio did go democrat that year but in the end the UP has proven its value many times over.
15 posted on 03/10/2014 8:00:24 AM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: DManA

No I don’t think Americans know the history of that area, nor do they care about certain regions becoming part of Russia. Americans do not care if Putin is trying to put the Russian empire back together.


16 posted on 03/10/2014 8:02:02 AM PDT by Dilbert San Diego (as)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

I don’t care a flying rat’s behind. We are a bankrupt nation by any standards of accounting. It is like a person who can not pay his credit card debt trying to get involved with a neighbor’s fight with her husband over who gets to park in the garage. Just stay out of it. Roman empire vanished after pursuing foreign wars with a bankrupt treasury, Soviet Union went kaput after trying to compete with USA star wars program, Hitler’s Germany fell after sending armies to Russia, Alexander the Great’s demise began after his loss in battles in Asia. Learn from history or be doomed to repeat it.


17 posted on 03/10/2014 8:08:14 AM PDT by entropy12 (If you did not vote, you helped elect the community organizer from south side of Chicago.)
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To: grania
Ukraine will still have the major seaport of Odessa. I'm not sure about its ethnic makeup.

If Putin stops after retaking Crimea, the world will forget it soon, and he will go down in Russian history as a great leader who deftly reversed Khrushchev's gift of Russian Crimea to Ukraine.

If he continues to take more and more of Ukraine or any other nations, he'll be the next Hitler.

It's too early to say which will happen.

18 posted on 03/10/2014 8:14:09 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: dfwgator

It might be, or in might not be. If Hitler stopped after retaking “certified German territory” then there would have been no WW2, and Nazi Germany might still be a global superpower.

It’s too early to know.


19 posted on 03/10/2014 8:15:51 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: entropy12

Amen, just that with things as they are, nothing is going to prevent some kind of depression or economic calamity but when you are in a hole, its good advice to stop digging.


20 posted on 03/10/2014 8:17:15 AM PDT by nomad
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To: Travis McGee
Just a matter of when he takes the Ukraine, and then Estonia, and then Poland, ect...
21 posted on 03/10/2014 8:17:21 AM PDT by Sam Gamgee (May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - Patton)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

67% responded “a county, someplace in Idaho”


22 posted on 03/10/2014 8:19:28 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: cripplecreek

I don’t know about that...

The left/right, Dem/Repub dualist system is easier for the elite to control than if the Repub and Dem party both split up and we ended up with say 5 or 6 parties: a Tea Party, a barely center-right party, a Uber-Progressive Party, the center-left Dem Party, a Libertarian Party, etc.

Much harder for the elite to control in that sense. Perhaps the same holds true in other areas.


23 posted on 03/10/2014 8:20:06 AM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Sam Gamgee

That’s when we’ll know.

Not over Crimea, which is wildly popular in Russia, and seen as reversing Khrushchev’s unilateral gift.

If Hitler had stopped after retaking German Rhineland, Danzig etc, there would not have been a WW2.

We’ll know in a while, but Crimea is not the proof (yet) that Putin is Hitler II.


24 posted on 03/10/2014 8:23:15 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Travis McGee

“Odessa. I’m not sure about its ethnic makeup.”

“The city of Odessa, founded by order of Catherine the Great, Russian Empress, centres on the site of the Turkish fortress Khadzhibei, which was occupied by Russian Army in 1789.

Odessa during the Crimean War of 1853–1856 was bombarded by British and French naval forces. It soon recovered and the growth in trade made Odessa Russia’s largest grain-exporting port.

Ukrainians make up a majority (62 percent) of Odessa’s inhabitants, and there is a large ethnic Russian minority (29 percent); the primary language in the city continues to be Russian.

Through most of the 19th century and until the mid 20th century the largest ethnic group in Odessa was Russians, with the second largest ethnic group being the Jews: most of them being exterminated by the nazis, and the survivors emigrated to Israel after the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa#Demographics


25 posted on 03/10/2014 8:26:51 AM PDT by Marguerite (When I'm good, I'm very good, but when I'm bad, I'm even better)
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To: grania
Yes it is as this map shows:

I really can't see leaving Ukraine without a coastline and still preserving any form of peace and stability. Of course, if Moldova rejoins Russia as seems likely at this point, you aren't going to get stability with an East Prussia type separation either.

26 posted on 03/10/2014 8:39:27 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

I could not possibly care less.


27 posted on 03/10/2014 8:41:41 AM PDT by pgkdan
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

I barely give a damn what happens in Connecticut
much less Ukraine


28 posted on 03/10/2014 8:42:41 AM PDT by Joe Boucher ((FUBO) obammy lied and lied and lied)
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To: Vigilanteman

99% of Americans could not tell you what planet Crimea is on.


29 posted on 03/10/2014 8:43:28 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: cripplecreek

” Andrew Jackson gave the much more valuable Toledo strip to Ohio”

“much more valuable ?” Michigan can have it right now! It’s the armpit of Ohio!


30 posted on 03/10/2014 8:43:46 AM PDT by Dr. Bogus Pachysandra ( Ya can't pick up a turd by the clean end!)
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To: Travis McGee

No one but Hitler was Hitler. Hitler is a family name, not a noun or an adjective.

I got tired of this uncanny comparision, used in American politics and media..
Any leader US hate is a “hitler”: Saddam was a hitler, Gaddafi was another hitler, Milosevici was a small hitler and now Putin is a “hitler”...

Enough is enough; they are not able to keep up a political discussion out of the gutter.

It’s like the American politicians crying “wolf” : “Oh-là-là, Putin invaded Ukraine, there sent 16,000 troops in Crimea. Invasion ... new Hitler, occupation blah-blah”, deliberately ignoring that Russia had already legally more than 17,000 troops in Crimea, PRIOR the crisis.
Nowadays America has the most stupid, incompetent and laughable leadership in the world.


31 posted on 03/10/2014 8:44:19 AM PDT by Marguerite (When I'm good, I'm very good, but when I'm bad, I'm even better)
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To: jwalsh07

“99% of Americans could not tell you what planet Crimea is on.”

I saw it spelled “Crime” on some American fora. They might think they were talking about Chicago ...


32 posted on 03/10/2014 8:47:35 AM PDT by Marguerite (When I'm good, I'm very good, but when I'm bad, I'm even better)
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To: jwalsh07
99% of Obama voters for sure. I think the 20% or so of us who are solid TEA Party conservatives would definitely know, plus a substantial portion of the second quintile who claim to be conservative but are less informed (i.e., the Newt/Romney/Bush/Huckabee supporters).
33 posted on 03/10/2014 8:52:56 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: Marguerite

Enough is enough; they are not able to keep up a political discussion out of the gutter.


No, it’s the Russians who can’t stay out of the gutter. They have a historical predisposition to rape and murder their neighbors. Putin is using the same playbook Stalin and Brezhnev used before him. Nothing new here at all.


34 posted on 03/10/2014 8:53:20 AM PDT by lodi90
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Back when it mattered to all nations whether or not to align with the US, there would NEVER have been this kind of ‘political experimentation’.

Their options were more or less clear cut.

Communism or the US and Capitalism.

Now that “O” has basically neutered the US as a diplomatic entity and has mocked any edge we possessed over Communism and other brute governments... well, people world wide are left to sink or swim without the guidance and example of a strong, economically and socially stable America!


35 posted on 03/10/2014 8:56:32 AM PDT by SMARTY ("When you blame others, you give up your power to change." Robert Anthony)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

I could care less. Russia does what it wants.


36 posted on 03/10/2014 9:03:23 AM PDT by Pit1 (Obama is the big pile in the road.)
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To: Vigilanteman

Putin will probably pause his expansionist agenda with Crimea and continue to destabilize Ukraine. Once he gets another stooge in control of Ukraine he will move on to another small country he can bully. Probably in the Baltics because he can engage a weakened NATO there. If Russian tanks roll there it will be a shooting war with Russia or the end of NATO.


37 posted on 03/10/2014 9:03:52 AM PDT by lodi90
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
Do Most Americans Care If Crimeans & Eastern Ukrainians Vote To Join With Russia?

Most Americans just might, if Obama and the Rats can use Western MSM propaganda to create a common outside enemy to the fractured US electorate.

Obama, Progressive Rat, and Congressional approval ratings are at an all time low for the 2014 elections, and we need an outside big bad bully to get Americans to unite backing (and electing) the Democrat and moderate Republican freedom loving good guys to carry on the fight.

While picking everyone's pockets and collecting their guns.

The oldest trick in the book.

38 posted on 03/10/2014 9:12:47 AM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: Travis McGee

Best explanation of the situation that I’ve read to date.


39 posted on 03/10/2014 9:16:17 AM PDT by Cowboy Bob (They are called "Liberals" because the word "parasite" was already taken.)
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To: lodi90

I think NATO ended the day BO was re-elected. They just don’t know it yet.


40 posted on 03/10/2014 9:17:48 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

If they did would it matter one way or the other?


41 posted on 03/10/2014 9:21:21 AM PDT by mulligan (I)
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To: Vigilanteman; Travis McGee

My computer choked up when I tried to research the ethnic breakdown of Odessa. There have been pro-Russian protests about the city’s fate. It’ll be interesting to see how it unfolds in southern Ukraine. What we hear about is eastern Ukraine.


42 posted on 03/10/2014 9:31:27 AM PDT by grania
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To: Marguerite
Agsin, Marguerite to the rescue. Thanks.

This gets interesting. Would those ethnic Jews be better off under Putin or under a potentially neo-Nazi Ukraine?

43 posted on 03/10/2014 9:36:05 AM PDT by grania
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To: Travis McGee

Aren’t there any potential ports on the Russian coast of the Black sea?


44 posted on 03/10/2014 9:41:25 AM PDT by DManA
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

“What say you?”

My FR name says it all.


45 posted on 03/10/2014 9:43:56 AM PDT by TexasRepublic (Socialism is the gospel of envy and the religion of thieves)
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To: DManA

I assume not, not on the scale of Sevastapol etc.

Or there would be already.


46 posted on 03/10/2014 9:45:12 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: grania

“Would those ethnic Jews be better off under Putin or under a potentially neo-Nazi Ukraine?”

I don’t really know.
What I know is in the 19th century there were an estimated 5,500,000 Jews living in Russia. Under a law introduced by Alexander III, all Russian Jews were forced to live in what became known as the Pale of Jewish Settlement - which consisted of Polish provinces, stretching from Riga to Odessa, to Vilna and Kiev.
What I know is that 2.25 million Jews lived in Ukraine before the WWII. Most of them were killed in situ, in the woods and in the diches by nazis’ ukrainian collaborators, a big number were sent to the death camp Belzec, situated just over the border in Poland, and out of 19% survivors, many emigrated in Israel.

Actually, there are some 50,000 Jews still living in Ukraine.


47 posted on 03/10/2014 9:52:31 AM PDT by Marguerite (When I'm good, I'm very good, but when I'm bad, I'm even better)
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To: Vigilanteman
The problem is that you would have this western tongue intruding into the East (West Ukraine would be surrounded by Belarus, Russia, East Ukraine, and Moldova).

New East Ukraine Flag:

Crimea would become part of Russia.

48 posted on 03/10/2014 10:29:16 AM PDT by Thunder90 (All posts soley represent my own opinion.)
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To: grania
That small coastline Ukraine will have on the Black Sea....is it also majority ethnic Russian?


49 posted on 03/10/2014 10:43:25 AM PDT by caveat emptor (!)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

If, as I suspect, Crieams join Russia—they will need a land link—That means a corridor that will slice more off of Ukraine—good news, most of the people here speak Russian and wouldn’t really mind being back under the two headed eagle.
Is this bit of territory really worth a war? I think not—most Europeans will agree. Its just history happening all over again. Best advise—get ready because something big is about to happen.


50 posted on 03/10/2014 10:43:45 AM PDT by Forward the Light Brigade (Into the Jaws of H*ll)
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