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Discoveries Challenge Beliefs on Humans’ Arrival in the Americas
The New York Times ^ | 27 Mar 2014 | SIMON ROMERO

Posted on 03/28/2014 9:09:21 AM PDT by Theoria

Niede Guidon still remembers her astonishment when she glimpsed the paintings.

Preserved amid the bromeliad-encrusted plateaus that tower over the thorn forests of northeast Brazil, the ancient rock art depicts fierce battles among tribesmen, orgiastic scenes of prehistoric revelry and hunters pursuing their game, spears in hand.

“These were stunning compositions, people and animals together, not just figures alone,” said Dr. Guidon, 81, remembering what first lured her and other archaeologists in the 1970s to this remote site where jaguars still prowl.

Hidden in the rock shelters where prehistoric humans once lived, the paintings number in the thousands. Some are thought to be more than 9,000 years old and perhaps even far more ancient. Painted in red ocher, they rank among the most revealing testaments anywhere in the Americas to what life was like millenniums before the European conquest began a mere five centuries ago.

But it is what excavators found when they started digging in the shadows of the rock art that is contributing to a pivotal re-evaluation of human history in the hemisphere.

Researchers here say they have unearthed stone tools proving that humans reached what is now northeast Brazil as early as 22,000 years ago. Their discovery adds to the growing body of research upending a prevailing belief of 20th-century archaeology in the United States known as the Clovis model, which holds that people first arrived in the Americas from Asia about 13,000 years ago.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: History
KEYWORDS: ancientnavigation; clovis; godsgravesglyphs; homoerectus; humanorigins; kennewick; kennewickman; migration; niedeguidon; origins; preclovis; southamerica
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Disputed finds put humans in South America 22,000 years ago
1 posted on 03/28/2014 9:09:21 AM PDT by Theoria
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To: SunkenCiv
pre clovis, ping.

Looks like Prof. Guidon doesn't play around:'At her home on the grounds of a museum she founded to focus on the discoveries in Serra da Capivara, she said she believed that humans had reached these plateaus even earlier, around 100,000 years ago, and might have come not overland from Asia but by boat from Africa.'

2 posted on 03/28/2014 9:11:43 AM PDT by Theoria (End Socialism : No more GOP and Dem candidates)
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To: Theoria

Prevailing scientific theory that is beyond debate is shown to be wrong yet again.


3 posted on 03/28/2014 9:15:59 AM PDT by Dr. Thorne ("How long, O Lord, holy and true?" - Rev. 6:10)
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To: Dr. Thorne

she said she believed ..................


Not proven.


4 posted on 03/28/2014 9:19:02 AM PDT by PeterPrinciple
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To: Theoria

But, Patron Saint of African evolution, L S B Leakey, said stone tools in the Americas were 125000 years old!

No one there believed him but no one challenged him either.


5 posted on 03/28/2014 9:19:06 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Sometimes you need 7+ more ammo. LOTS MORE.)
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To: Theoria

Some guy at the Daily Beast wrote an article that was a mixture of Leftist ideology and science claiming recent genetic tests proved the Clovis theory is true. He ridiculed the theory that the proto-Europeans Solutrean came before the Clovie Era was the works of racists. Looks like that guy needs to go back to his piece with this new information.


6 posted on 03/28/2014 9:21:58 AM PDT by C19fan
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To: Theoria

I can understand Africans desire to leave, however, they have never envisioned anything like travel on the oceans or shoe laces. Lets try a peoples like the Phoenicians or Mesopotamians. Africans missed the bronze age, iron age and industrial revolution for a reason!


7 posted on 03/28/2014 9:27:09 AM PDT by himno hero (hadnuff)
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To: Theoria

” orgiastic scenes of prehistoric revelry”

Proving that porn has always been popular.


8 posted on 03/28/2014 9:28:20 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lost my tagline on Flight MH370. Sorry for the inconvenience.)
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To: Theoria

” Stuart Fiedel, an archaeologist with the Louis Berger Group, an environmental consulting company, said that monkeys might have made the tools instead of humans.”

Impossible! There were no Democrats back then.


9 posted on 03/28/2014 9:29:32 AM PDT by GladesGuru (Islam Delenda Est - because of what Islam is and because of what Muslims do.)
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To: Dr. Thorne

Yep, it used to be career suicide to go against the Clovis First theory. It was settled science and enforced much the same way that AGW is enforced today. I love holding up Clovis First as an example of how settled science often is not and how a group of scientists in a field can intimidate peers from putting forth competing theories despite growing evidence that their pet theory could be wrong.


10 posted on 03/28/2014 9:34:31 AM PDT by dirtboy
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To: Theoria; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; decimon; 1010RD; 21twelve; 24Karet; ...
You get the Wowzo Award (it's very informal) for GGG topics in March 2014! This is definitely going onto the archives. If I ever take the time to straighten out the archives across four (or maybe five) different machines plus old CD backups, someone will have to fill in on GGG duty. :') Thanks Theoria! Erectus at Sea ping!

11 posted on 03/28/2014 9:34:52 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/alreadyposted/index)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

Leakey is considered wrong about the tools, and was disputed immediately, but he was on the right ground — he looked at what was known even at that time about the PreColumubian civilizations, which are all different, along with the many different languages and language families. It’s clear and obvious that the Americas have been colonized multiple times, and the population shifts due to climate and population booms have been numerous and of great antiquity.


12 posted on 03/28/2014 9:43:20 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/alreadyposted/index)
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To: Dr. Thorne

“Beyond debate” is something that is projected onto scientific questions by people who are not scientists.


13 posted on 03/28/2014 9:44:35 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/alreadyposted/index)
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To: C19fan

Hey, you can’t have ideology without mindless conformity, and can’t take over supreme power without attacking all other points of view. :’)


14 posted on 03/28/2014 9:45:52 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/alreadyposted/index)
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To: dirtboy

Isolationism — which is popular with some people even here on FR — is and was a political view, and was the root cause of the widespread popularity of Alex Hrdlicka’s relentless attacks upon the idea of precolumbian contact. The fact is, he was an overbearing a-hole.

It’s also a fact that he picked off a lot of low-hanging fruit(cakes) who claimed that this or that culture in the Americas *had to be* related to some better-known Old World culture.

It’s also a fact that there was contact, and lots of it, unrelated to each other for the most part, and that Columbus went to Iceland to find out about the lands to the west. IOW, to say that either one was all correct and the other was all incorrect is an unsupportable position to take.


15 posted on 03/28/2014 9:52:24 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/alreadyposted/index)
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‘First Americans’ May Be Johnnies-Come-Lately (Topper Site)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1196832/posts

http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/topper/index

https://www.google.com/search?q=22000+years+precolumbian+site%3AFreerepublic.com

Calico: A 200,000-year Old Site In The Americas?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/592435/posts


16 posted on 03/28/2014 10:03:57 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/alreadyposted/index)
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To: SunkenCiv

The film I saw showed no one disputing, but maybe someone did. This was the time Leakey fell off the stage. The film was(I believe) a NAT GEO film from the early 1970s.

I found a stone tool on my place not long ago. it looks just like a small hand axe from Africa. I’ve often wondered if ancient Indians used something like this as it was tear dropped shaped with cutting edges on both sides, and thick at the non pointed end where someone would grasp it.


17 posted on 03/28/2014 10:03:57 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Sometimes you need 7+ more ammo. LOTS MORE.)
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To: UCANSEE2

Darn tootin’.


18 posted on 03/28/2014 10:04:23 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/alreadyposted/index)
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To: GladesGuru

I loved Tom Dillehay’s response later in the article, and if anyone has a reason to use a term that “street”, it’s him — he was continuously under irrational attack by the Clovis-First-and-Only residue, which grows smaller by the day.


19 posted on 03/28/2014 10:05:58 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/alreadyposted/index)
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Erectus Ahoy (Stone Age Voyages)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1006058/posts

First Americans - Homo Erectus in America
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1226526/posts

Extinct humans left louse legacy(Homo Erectus and Homo Sapiens)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1246930/posts

Rise Of Man Theory ‘Out By 400,000 Years’
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1855680/posts

A New Paleolithic Revolution
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1892199/posts

‘Java Man’ takes age to extremes [ H. erectus 550,000 yrs BP? ]
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2495263/posts

Ancient hominids may have been seafarers
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2428036/posts


20 posted on 03/28/2014 10:18:01 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/alreadyposted/index)
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To: UCANSEE2

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1376953/posts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1377276/posts


21 posted on 03/28/2014 10:18:58 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/alreadyposted/index)
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To: himno hero
“If they’re right, and there’s a great possibility that they are, that will change everything we know about the settlement of the Americas,” said Walter Neves, an evolutionary anthropologist at the University of São Paulo whose own analysis of an 11,000-year-old skull in Brazil implies that some ancient Americans resembled aboriginal Australians more than they did Asians."

'First Americans Were Australians.'


22 posted on 03/28/2014 10:19:17 AM PDT by blam
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To: dirtboy
I love holding up Clovis First as an example of how settled science often is not and how a group of scientists in a field can intimidate peers from putting forth competing theories despite growing evidence that their pet theory could be wrong.

Career suicide, yes, because all the tenured old guys had built careers on their theories and were making a bundle of money requiring their own books as college texts. It's an old saw that new theoretical work can't proceed until the previous generation of theorists is dead and gone. Unfortunately the "new generation" usually can't wait to assume the perks and privileges of the old one. They'll fight just as hard to suppress any ideas that conflict with their own.

This is a problem of human nature and institutional corruption that has nothing to do with the validity of the scientific method as Dr. Thorne implied.

23 posted on 03/28/2014 10:23:08 AM PDT by Bernard Marx
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To: SunkenCiv

Clovis first has been, at best, a hypothesis. It’s devilishly hard to prove anything through the absence of contradictory evidence. I’ve always had a rule of thumb that anything will prove to be more complicated than is first thought. Incontestable conclusions are usually the product of tenured professors guarding their turf.

People were able to get to Australia some sixty thousand years ago at least. The lower sea levels through the various ice ages including the recent hypothesis on Beringia leave a lot of room for speculation. DNA studies would seem to limit the European influences, however.


24 posted on 03/28/2014 10:25:06 AM PDT by JimSEA
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And the contact went both ways. Ever wonder why Basque is a language isolate?
America B.C.
by Barry Fell
(1976)
find it in a nearby library
A fascinating letter I received from a Shoshone Indian who had been traveling in the Basque country of Spain tells of his recognition of Shoshone words over there, including his own name, whose Shoshone meaning proved to match the meaning attached to a similar word by the modern Basques. Unfortunately I mislaid this interesting letter. If the Shoshone scholar who wrote to me should chance to see these words I hope he will forgive me and contact me again. The modern Basque settlers of Idaho may perhaps bring forth a linguist to investigate matters raised in this chapter. [p 173]

25 posted on 03/28/2014 10:25:11 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/alreadyposted/index)
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To: Dr. Thorne

Settled science just turned to jello.


26 posted on 03/28/2014 10:29:39 AM PDT by Flick Lives ("I can't believe it's not Fascism!")
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To: SunkenCiv

We have some linguists here on FR (or appear to be)

Perhaps a straight up comparison between Shoshone and Basque would be interesting challenge for one of them.


27 posted on 03/28/2014 10:31:05 AM PDT by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both.)
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To: JimSEA

The settlement of Australia is a particularly hilarious example, imo, of the landlubber mindset at work — Flores Island was not connected to the mainland, even during glaciation, during the generally accepted time of hominim settlement of the Earth, and yet, there are tools on the island dating to 800,000 years ago. IOW, someone earlier than us decided as a one-off to go boating, ended up on Flores, and no one followed or left the place thereafter. Then, 740,000 years went by and boats were again invented by someone as a one-off, and they colonized Australia, never to leave again. Another 59,000 years passed and, during the Age of Sail, someone from outside discovered Australia. :’)

Hrdlicka’s view was that the Americas were first settled 3000 years ago, and until radiometric dating came along after WWII, that was still being pushed as reality — but the 3000 year floor gave way to another arbitrary floor, for no reason whatsoever.

A similar problem existed in Japan — a late settlement date was the accepted view, and when excavations of possible prehistoric human sites hit stuff of the right date, no one bothered to continue to dig.


28 posted on 03/28/2014 10:32:39 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/alreadyposted/index)
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To: BenLurkin

The Basque political radicals would never be interested in the findings. :’)


29 posted on 03/28/2014 10:33:25 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/alreadyposted/index)
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To: SunkenCiv
The Enigma of the Natives of Tierra del Fuego

(snip)

"Tierra del Fuego was inhabited by three unrelated groups: Ona, which lived by gathering wild fruits and guanaco hunt; Yahgan in islands south of the Isla Grande (Great Island) of Tierra del Fuego, and Alacaluf (inhabiting the Strait of Magellan - Brunswick Peninsula, Wellington, Santa In�s and Desolaci�n islands). The last two groups lived by gathering sea products and fishing. All these groups did not know farming, weaving, skin tanning, pottery and basket making. The fisherman groups did not know the fishing hook and nets, while the Onas, inhabiting an island surrounded by fish-rich waters, did not fish and nor even did they swim. "

(snip)

30 posted on 03/28/2014 10:35:20 AM PDT by blam
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http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/ancientnavigation/index


31 posted on 03/28/2014 10:36:00 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/alreadyposted/index)
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To: SunkenCiv
The Relationship Between The Basque And Ainu
32 posted on 03/28/2014 10:40:54 AM PDT by blam
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To: Theoria
Milleniums? The New York Times can't afford Spell Check for their writers' laptops? I suppose Simon Romero could have an excuse since English may not be his first language. But anyone with nominally working spell check would have this one caught (hint: the plural suffix of many Latin Neuter gender nouns is "a" as a substitute for "um").

This sentiment has probably been echoed by every generation of men approaching codger-hood, but it seems to me that people are becoming increasingly ignorant as the years and decades roll by. Yet when people, paid writers no less, ignore the crutches technology provides to hide their lack of a genuine education we enter the realms of laziness and stupidity.

33 posted on 03/28/2014 10:44:38 AM PDT by katana (Just my opinions)
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To: Bernard Marx

Well put. Science is a method, not a body of knowledge, but scientists are human first, just like everyone else. One obvious difference is, we’re discussing this in a topic about new findings and conclusions that overthrow an entrenched belief. That’s not a commonplace in most human activity outside of the marketplace, where accepted products are replaced by something either cheaper or with some kind of other appeal.


34 posted on 03/28/2014 10:45:07 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/alreadyposted/index)
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To: blam

I remember a bogus story about prehistoric artifacts found in Antarctica, I wonder if that was posted here?

But anyway, that’s an excellent example, one of the most remote places on Earth, and three unlike cultures wound up stuffed in there.

Palaeoecological Evidence for Possible Pre-European Settlement in the Falkland Islands
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440398902977


35 posted on 03/28/2014 10:50:20 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/alreadyposted/index)
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To: Theoria

Prevailing scientific consensus is generally the result of biased people working according to non-scientific methods.


36 posted on 03/28/2014 10:52:39 AM PDT by I want the USA back (Media: completely irresponsible traitors. Complicit in the destruction of our country.)
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To: blam

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Falkland_Islands#Pre-European_discovery


37 posted on 03/28/2014 10:58:03 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/alreadyposted/index)
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To: SunkenCiv
"But anyway, that’s an excellent example, one of the most remote places on Earth, and three unlike cultures wound up stuffed in there."

In his writings, Humboldt mentioned the distinctiveness of these people he encountered down there.

38 posted on 03/28/2014 11:00:04 AM PDT by blam
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To: Theoria

I never did buy the ‘Land Bridge’ theory.

I bet humans came from all directions and modes of transport to settle in new lands.

Across the north and south Atlantic in boats, rafts etc.

The could have come by foot when the northern hemisphere was frozen under a mile of ice......................


39 posted on 03/28/2014 11:01:37 AM PDT by Red Badger (LIberal is an oxymoron......................)
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To: Theoria


40 posted on 03/28/2014 11:15:20 AM PDT by JoeProBono (SOME IMAGES MAY BE DISTURBING VIEWER DISCRETION IS ADVISED;-{)
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To: Theoria

I was at Red Rock Canyon outside Las Vegas yesterday and they have some rock art that is only about a thousand years old. It is still very interesting to see the hand prints on the walls of the rock and imagining these people’s carving out a life in the desert. The geology of the area is very fascinating as well. Thanks for the post!


41 posted on 03/28/2014 11:24:01 AM PDT by Sawdring
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To: blam

I think that’s where I tracked that down. :’)


42 posted on 03/28/2014 11:29:59 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/alreadyposted/index)
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To: I want the USA back

Prevailing non-scientific beliefs are the result of biased people repeating the same things over and over.


43 posted on 03/28/2014 11:31:12 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/alreadyposted/index)
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To: himno hero

You might be a little hard on the Africans. First, you can’t separate the Egyptian Civilization from Africa, particularly because it seems the Egyptians came in large measure from the Sahara as it dried out. Also, you have the Nubian, Ethiopian, Kushan and West African Cultures. The Nok, Bantu, Ghanan and Benin cultures in West Africa began about 900 BC growing from agricultural settlements. The Sahara was their “ocean”. The impact of the spread of Islam which leveled cultures out to a Muslim pattern certainly had its impact in Africa and in the trade routes moving gold, copper, ivory, etc. North across the Sahara to the Mediterranean. European colonialism was a further blow to African civilizations already savaged by Islam and an expanded slave trade.


44 posted on 03/28/2014 1:04:51 PM PDT by JimSEA
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To: Theoria

“Monkeys, including large extinct forms, have been in South America for 35 million years,” Dr. Fiedel said. He added that the Clovis model was recently bolstered by new DNA analysis ancestrally connecting indigenous peoples in Central and South America to a boy from the Clovis culture whose 12,700-year-old remains were found in 1968 at a site in Montana.’

The only monkeying around here are by those die-hards who persist in believing that humans could never have appeared here prior to Clovis when overwhelming evidence indicates they populated the rest of the workd well before the Clovis date.


45 posted on 03/28/2014 1:08:20 PM PDT by ZULU (Si vis pacem, para bellum)
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To: Bernard Marx

“This is a problem of human nature and institutional corruption that has nothing to do with the validity of the scientific method as Dr. Thorne implied.”

Except...

When the practitioners invalidate scientific method by refusing to hold to the practice in order to puff their own egos and finances, the method isn’t about actual science.


46 posted on 03/28/2014 1:23:44 PM PDT by Grimmy (equivocation is but the first step along the road to capitulation)
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To: Theoria
From the article: How could Polynesians have made it to Brazil?

By walking and dugout if necessary, if they could have made it to the Peruvian coast. Officials in Peru have identified four land and water routes used to traffic cocaine to Bolivia and one used to move drugs to Brazil.
47 posted on 03/28/2014 1:51:39 PM PDT by caveat emptor (!)
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To: Theoria; SunkenCiv

I like this lady. She’s got moxie. No Clovis groupie is gonna push her around.


48 posted on 03/28/2014 3:23:59 PM PDT by colorado tanker
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To: colorado tanker

I’ve not quite finished it, but was impressed that there weren’t a bunch of faux-thoritative talking heads passing sentence, as there once would have been in an article about something like this.


49 posted on 03/28/2014 4:12:32 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/alreadyposted/index)
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To: Red Badger

I accept the Beringia route, but I don’t accept it as one time thing, or as a one-way street. And I wholeheartedly agree, just like the rest of the planet, people came in from all different directions at different times.

There was a PBS show years ago, “Lost Red Paint People” (hmm, probably it’s been uploaded to one of the vid sites) which was I think also mentioned how the small megaliths (oxymoron alert) they’d erected were the same as those found in the European and Asian Arctic Circle. Of course, the show throws monkey crap all over the idea that anyone could possibly have crossed open water.

Which is weird, because people have crossed the same batches of open water, reaching at least Greenland from the west, repeatedly over thousands of years.

Anyway, some links that are half-assed related:

https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/radiocarbon/article/viewFile/994/999

This book looks interesting:

http://books.google.com/books?id=IE6cAgAAQBAJ&dq=first+migrants&source=gbs_navlinks_s


50 posted on 03/28/2014 4:23:01 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/alreadyposted/index)
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