Posted on 03/29/2014 9:14:22 AM PDT by SunkenCiv
A team of researchers working in Hungary has proposed that a sun compass artifact found in a convent in 1948 might have been used in conjunction with crystals to allow Vikings to guide their boats even at night. In their paper published in Proceedings of the Royal Society A: Mathematical, Physical & Engineering Sciences, the team describes theories they've developed that might explain how Viking sailors were able to so accurately sail to places such as Greenland.
Since the discovery of the sun compass fragment, researchers have theorized that Viking sailors used them to plot their course—at least when the sun was shining. They didn't have magnetic compasses, however, which suggest they must have had some other means for steering in the evening or the later hours. In this latest effort, the researchers describe a scenario where the Vikings might have used a type of crystal that they called a sunstone to help them use light from the sun below the horizon as a guide.
The sun compass fragment, prior research has suggested, operated in similar fashion to a sundial, using the position of the sun to determine direction, instead of time. Some have suggested the Vikings also used a dome shaped object with slits in it, placed on top of the compass to help narrow the light during the time when the sun moved low towards the horizon.
(Excerpt) Read more at phys.org ...
We think alike.
It would be like claiming that people with Harleys couldn’t have gone anywhere in the winter. :’)
LOL! I’m back where I was!
About the only thing I really need to know is that geniuses (geniusi?) have no lock on today’s board. If that were so, nothing would have changed since Adam and Eve.
I had not heard that about the Phaistos Disk. But I wonder if the scholar in question understood how simple stamping works? That was what was shown in the old Dragnet shows, where the hammer strikes the tool and leave a mark in the metal.
If an artisan were going to make a few dozen disks, that sort of stamping method is not only easier, but it eliminates errors caused by miscopying. It would make even more sense if the artisan had a shop table of slaves sitting there doing the work. They wouldn’t even have to understand what they were stamping.
Then how come Homer`s Iliad [1300bc] of 12 cities point magnetic north duhhh???
How did ancient Egyptians know how to algin their beds to magnetic north?
Can`t prove a negative but positive evidence must be taken into account.
If you have some ancient sources (I mean ancient, not Bauval or some other freak show) that states that they did, I’d really be interested in seeing it. Until then, uh, no, it didn’t happen that way.
The characters (my favorite is the “mohawk”) are basically identical when found twice on the disk, and the mark from the edge of the die was in the clay here and there when the disk was fired. I’d be surprised if no one besides the conjurer (faker) who sold the disks or the services was the only one in the ancient world to come up with the method, not least because the use of seals for stamping the royal signature was known in Mesopotamia.
Thanks for the navigation ping. I knew about the sunstone but had not heard of crystals.
הֲיָרֹעַ בַּרְזֶל בַּרְזֶל מִצָּפוֹן, וּנְחֹשֶׁת
knows north iron iron shattered [TO HAVE BEEN SHATTERING]
SHATTERED IRON KNOWS NORTH
[pieces of] iron knows north
הֲיָרֹעַ is a interrogative imperfect verb [reflexive=
WILL [NOT] SHATTERED IRON KNOW NORTH?
TRANS= "PIECES OF IRON POINT NORTH"
[to shatter=to break into pieces]
Still not Homer, still not Egyptians.
And no other translation agrees with that.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/jeremiah/15-12-compare.html
Word to that. Growing up in a factory/farm area of the country, a common joke here is that PhD means ‘Piled high and Deep’. Some of the smartest guys I know never had a degree but could design and build marvelous things. Give me real world know how that’s made it happen because they had to or they didn’t eat.
here is the link:
St. Jerome in the Vulgate omits the greek word for "north"=borras but translators later referred to the Hebrew and got it all mixed in with the vulgate. thus we have
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1115.htm
JEREMIAH 15:12
הֲיָרֹעַ בַּרְזֶל בַּרְזֶל מִצָּפוֹן,
וּנְחֹשֶׁת
knows north iron iron shattered [TO HAVE BEEN SHATTERING]
SHATTERED IRON KNOWS NORTH
[pieces of] iron knows north
הֲיָרֹעַ is a interrogative imperfect verb [reflexive=
WILL [NOT] SHATTERED IRON KNOW NORTH?
TRANS= "PIECES OF IRON POINT NORTH"
[to shatter=to break into pieces]
Word Parsed: הֲיָרֹעַ
Parts of Speech: Interrogative, Verb Qal Imperfect 3rd Mas. Sing. Root: הֲ
Strong's Number: H7489, H7490
Infinitive Definition: 1. to be bad, be evil
a. (Qal) 1. to
be displeasing 2. to be sad...
1. (P'al) to crush,
break, shatter
==============
הֲיָרֹעַ בַּרְזֶל בַּרְזֶל מִצָּפוֹן,
וּנְחֹשֶׁת.
12 Can iron break iron from the north and brass?
הֲיָרֹעַ
בַּרְזֶל
בַּרְזֶל
מִצָּפוֹן, וּנְחֹשֶׁת.
knows north iron iron shattered [pieces of iron]
distressed iron iron consciense, scruple figures out
מִצָּפוֹן,=north
[ but iron is never sad nor distressed so must apply to inanimate object =iron chunk etc. [METEORIC IRON?]
=shattered, broken into pieces
נְחֹשֶׁת.=to know
בַּרְזֶל iron
הֲיָרֹעַ verb imperfect meaning= shattered
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-
texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=44&page=15
the greek word for north borras, does not appear in his verse at all=
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=44&page=15
εἰ γνωσθήσεται σίδηρος; καὶ
περιβόλαιον χαλκοῦν
13. ἡ ἰσχύς σου.
indeed knows iron [nom] even in a enclosure than strength your 15,13, not 15,12]
indeed iron knows even in a brass enclosure 12 Will iron be known? whereas thy strength is a brazen covering.
jerome vulgate
15 12 Shall iron be allied with the iron from the north, and the brass?
[THIS IS SUCH A STUPOID TRANSLATION IT DOESN`T MAKE ANY SENSE IN ANY LANGUAGE!]
numquid foederabitur ferrum ferro ab aquilone et aes
sept: εἰ γνωσθήσεται σίδηρος καὶ
περιβόλαιον χαλκοuν
indeed knowsnom. " spins around" enclosure of brass
indeed iron knows
prov 27-17 σίδηρος σίδηρον ὀξύνει ἀνὴρ δὲ παροξύνει πρόσωπον ἑταίρου
accusative
Jeremiah 15:12
Verse Concepts
jer 15:9 ἐκενώθη ἡ τίκτουσα ἑπτά ἀπεκάκησεν ἡ ψυχὴ αὐτῆς ἐπέδυ ὁ ἥλιος αὐτῇ ἔτι μεσούσης τῆς ἡμέρας κατῃσχύνθη καὶ ὠνειδίσθη τοὺς καταλοίπους αὐτῶν εἰς μάχαιραν δώσω ἐναντίον τῶν ἐχθρῶν αὐτῶν
10 οἴμμοι ἐγώ μῆτερ ὡς τίνα με ἔτεκες ἄνδρα δικαζόμενον καὶ διακρινόμενον πάσῃ τῇ γῇ οὔτε ὠφέλησα οὔτε ὠφέλησέν με οὐδείς ἡ ἰσχύς μου ἐξέλιπεν ἐν τοῖς καταρωμένοις με
11 γένοιτο δέσποτα κατευθυνόντων αὐτῶν εἰ μὴ παρέστην σοι ἐν καιρῷ τῶν κακῶν αὐτῶν καὶ ἐν καιρῷ θλίψεως αὐτῶν εἰς ἀγαθὰ πρὸς τὸν ἐχθρόν
12 εἰ γνωσθήσεται σίδηρος καὶ περιβόλαιον χαλκοῦν
13 ἡ ἰσχύς σου καὶ τοὺς θησαυρούς σου εἰς προνομὴν δώσω ἀντάλλαγμα διὰ πάσας τὰς ἁμαρτίας σου καὶ ἐν πᾶσι τοῖς ὁρίοις σου
14 καὶ καταδουλώσω σε κύκλῳ τοῖς ἐχθροῖς σου ἐν τῇ γῇ ᾗ οὐκ ᾔδεις ὅτι πῦρ ἐκκέκαυται ἐκ τοῦ θυμοῦ μου ἐφ’ ὑμᾶς καυθήσεται
15 κύριε μνήσθητί μου καὶ ἐπίσκεψαί με καὶ ἀθῴωσόν με ἀπὸ τῶν καταδιωκόντων με μὴ εἰς μακροθυμίαν γνῶθι ὡς ἔλαβον περὶ σοῦ ὀνειδισμὸν
"Can anyone smash iron, Iron from the north, or bronze?[here it is iron in the accustive which is an erroneous translation coz it is the nominative.]
12 εἰ γνωσθήσεται σίδηρος καὶ περιβόλαιον χαλκοῦν
iron nom. and in grommet bronze around it
- See more at: http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Iron#sthash.13U8pfSF.dpuf
One has to learn Homeric greek and read his descriptions as graphic maps in letters. I learned greek and latin in university.
Also in many of the bible verses you will find references to "gold in the fire," etc -these are referring to the actual smelting gold processes, which certainly are not spiritual, e.g.
"tried like gold in the fire" The jeremiah vers 15 12 is actually an interjection into the discourse of the troubles facing Jerusalem and the interrogatory interjection of 15 12 is translated by St. Jerome as "INDEED" and runs it together into 13, as
εἰ γνωσθήσεται σίδηρος; καὶ περιβόλαιον χαλκοῦν
13. ἡ ἰσχύς σου.
indeed knows iron [nom] even in a enclosure than strength your but "strength" is not in 12 at all in the hebrew-
Also the case of iron is nominative in the Hebrew and greek but translators have put it into the accusative case, which is incorrect.
There are hundreds of examples of this everywhere in literature. Please refer to the "CITY OF PIGEONS" in Homer for reference to the 12 points of the magnetic north compass.
I will try to find the Egyptian references and Roman ones - but it will take me a while. Thanks. coz my heiro`s are rusty.
When a non-engineer tries to translate the Bible, all the scientific stuff gets omitted as in above because they do not know what the hell it means in a spiritual sense so they translate it so it doesn`t make any sense any way. It didn`t make any sense to them at all..
So you know what the translators of the "New American Bible" pub 1970] did? They completely left out of Jeremaih verses 12 - 14- they ain`t there at all.
I`ll be back for more fun & games. .
“Word to that. Growing up in a factory/farm area of the country, a common joke here is that PhD means ‘Piled high and Deep’. Some of the smartest guys I know never had a degree but could design and build marvelous things.”
Both are not mutually exclusive. There are brilliant minds with PhD’s and brilliant minds without them, or without having any higher degree at all. One does not preclude the other. Both have value. Elites with degrees should not denigrate the non-degreed Bill Gates/Rush Limbaugh types of the world, and those without higher degrees should not blanket judge as worthless those that have degrees. There is room for both.
I do agree that there is too much emphasis on credentials these days in light of the fact that bachelor’s degrees are being handed out like candy to just about anyone. I retired after 25 years working at a major public university, so I know this. They (bachelor degrees) are the equivalent of a high school degree from 25-30 years ago, IMO.
Again, I maintain a brilliant and/or industrious mind knows few boundaries and those that have one will make themselves known through what they accomplish in life. You can’t keep a good man, his curiosity and work ethic down. The least of us can be exceedingly clever and innovative when the spirit or necessity moves us.
There should be fewer barriers to those without degrees but with other skills than there are currently. Those with degrees tend to protect their own to keep out the non-degreed but with great potential or with particular talents. It smacks of the old class system of a different sort that our forefathers left Europe over. This country was founded primarily by the hard work and innovations of those without degrees.
However, in the highly technical fields of today like advanced math, physics, some new fields of engineering, etc., generally a higher degree becomes a necessity, although not always. Some fields are now so complex and specialized in nature that there just aren’t that many self trained people to be found.
Bottom line, live and let live - degreed or not, and let the innovations and discoveries roll, whatever their origins and without the vitriol and pitting of one against the other.
Not even one. Jeremiah is quite clearly referring (and perhaps metaphorically) to armies from the north; earlier in his life he refers to the then-current ingress of the Scythians, but not by name. Those verses aren’t about meteoritic iron either.
> Please refer to the “CITY OF PIGEONS” in Homer for reference to the 12 points of the magnetic north compass.
Thisbe, in some translation called “Thisbe of the Many Pigeons” and “dove-haunted Thisbe” (they still have pigeons there in plenty) is mentioned in the Iliad in the catalogue of ships section. Regarding compasses or magnetic pole, bupkis.
"NORTH IRON IRON KNOWS"
IT IS VERY VERY CLEAR AS TO WHAT IT MEANS
The Septuagint is even more precise than the Hebrew=
εἰ γνωσθήσεται σίδηρος; καὶ περιβόλαιον χαλκοῦν
13. ἡ ἰσχύς σου.
indeed! knows iron [nom] even in North
transposed=
"Indeed! Even Iron knows north!" St. Jerome stuck in the "EI" [indeed!] to make it a REAL FACT =IN DEED, factual statement, not a reference to some future or past army from the north-
The word army is not in there anywhere either in greek nor hebrew Jeremiah 15-12. There is no metaphor here as all the translators have never classified it as a metaphor. BECAUSE ST> JEROME SAID "INDEED"= FACT
Please do not let imagination run the bible because St. Jerome says this is a FACT by using "EI" as the first exclamatory word in the greek. ["In strong statements..and as the FIRST WORD in an interrogative clause, a more EMPHATIC" i.e. for EMPHASIS! -
I am saying, when St. Jerome translated the Septuagint from hebrew into greek, he left out one of the "iron"s,- and anyone knows that repetition in OT or NT means IMPORTANCE OF THAT WORD which is BEING REPEATED> because only greek uses the word [the same in succession ]repetition that hurts the ears, not latin.
Here is a list of Homer`s cities in the Iliad that, when located on a map of Greece, are on the points of a Maltese cross oriented magnetic north. I did this 20 years ago. The university researchers found the City of Pigeons only recently by mapping out a point on the maltese cross coz all these cities are equidistant from adjacent cities on the tips of the cross..
"These were they that dwelt in Hyria and rocky Aulis, and who held Schoenus, Scolus, and the highlands of Eteonus, with Thespeia, Graia, and the fair city of Mycalessus. They also held Harma, Eilesium, and Erythrae; and they had Eleon, Hyle, and Peteon; Ocalea and the strong fortress of Medeon; Copae, Eutresis, and Thisbe the haunt of doves; Coronea, and the pastures of Haliartus; Plataea and Glisas; the fortress of Thebes the less; holy Onchestus with its famous grove of Neptune; Arne rich in vineyards; Midea, sacred Nisa, and Anthedon upon the sea. From these there came fifty ships, and in each there were a hundred and twenty young men of the Boeotians.
http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.2.ii.html
There was also a study on the Maltese Cross Greek Cities of the Ilaid. but it was many years ago, maybe pub in Nat'l geographic? dunno.
In 500 AD the romans were fooling around with magnets.
also viz: rapuerat = "attracted" ][lodestone??? found in Caesar`s Gallic Wars" also rapuerat = lodestone or magnet
lodestone= Magnetem lapidem nouimus
====== PRISCIANI PERIEGESIS p404ff magneti, magnetem Priscian, fl. ca. 500-530
p404ff, "Bibliotheca classica latina; sive. Collectio auctorum ...", Volume 137
http://books.google.com/books?id=7vUZAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA405&dq=Magnetem&hl=en&sa=X&ei=b403U9HpKqfOsASVsIFQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Magnetem&f=false
I am still looking for the Egyptian but I`ll find it coz I have the codex`s [codices.]
For a wile, I worked in a Geography and Map Library at a state university. Among the things it housed were the thesis of doctoral candidates. Most followed a standard pattern of formatting and most were written on typewriters.
I was surprised at the volume of work students near the turn of the last century had to submit for successful completion of their doctorates. Thesis ran several hundreds of pages and were annotated with charts, graphs, and detailed footnotes. By the 1990's, most thesis couldn't boast even a hundred such type-written pages. Including their supporting notes, charts, and graphs.
I remember reading something about a sunstone crystal being used in navigation in a NOVEL about the Vikings years ago.
What may be new here is the accessory in the picture.
intersting post.
saw something like this last year when the show the vikings first came on, in that ragnar has a sunstone. apparently its natural polarization ability allows you to see the sun and take a sun sight even in cloudy weather, that the vikings had such stones seems beyond question now. so this article makes further sense.
one thing i haven’t seen mentioned, at night, if you can see the stars its relatively simple matter to see which way north is and how far north or south you are. well into the middle ages and beyond the standard method of traversing the sea was to sail north or south to your target latitude, and then run along that east or west longitude until you hit your target.
it was not until the invention of the ship gong clock that it changed and you could use a sun site to tell where you were east or west.
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