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Another stupid baseball rule question
Self | 4/5/'14 | Zionist Conspirator

Posted on 04/05/2014 7:41:07 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator

Some of you may remember a year or two ago I posted a question about an umpire's call that made absolutely no sense whatsoever. Now I'd like to again ask my fellow FReepers to explain to me something I've seen in a baseball game that makes no sense.

Last night in the St. Louis/Pittsburgh game, bottom of the first inning: the lead-off batter, Marte, walks. Man on first. The next batter hits a broken bat liner to the shortstop who catches it and steps on second. It is called an unassisted double play.

Now, as I understand it, the moment the ball was caught the force play at second should have been killed. Marte would have had to have been tagged or the ball thrown to first base. Yet from what I saw, the shortstop merely caught the ball and then stepped on second, and the play was definitely unassisted (so he didn't throw to first). How does this get Marte out? Is there some arcane rule that says in certain situations the fly out doesn't kill the force?

Every time I think I know this game . . . !


TOPICS: Chit/Chat; Hobbies; Miscellaneous; Sports
KEYWORDS: doubleplay; rulesofbaseball
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1 posted on 04/05/2014 7:41:08 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator
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To: Zionist Conspirator

I’m puzzled like you.

Infield fly?


2 posted on 04/05/2014 7:44:25 PM PDT by Scrambler Bob (You can count my felonies by looking at my FR replies.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

If the runner stayed on first I would think he would still be safe but I would imagine that he would be well down the line if he ran on contact.


3 posted on 04/05/2014 7:47:01 PM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

On a caught fly ball (I believe that is the situation you described), the runners on base must tag up (return and touch the base that they were originally on, after the ball is caught) before they can proceed. IF, after the ball is caught and before the runner ‘tags up’, the fielder touches the base (or throws it to a teammate who touches the base), the runner is ‘out’.


4 posted on 04/05/2014 7:47:09 PM PDT by El Cid (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house...)
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To: Scrambler Bob

That would only make the batter automatically out and not the runner. Infield fly rule is meant to avoid the infielder purposely dropping a fly in order to get more than the batter out.


5 posted on 04/05/2014 7:47:53 PM PDT by xp38
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To: Zionist Conspirator

ONLY way that scenario works is if man is doubled off 2B..but you say only one on.

If he had taken it on a hop and stepped on 2B and thrown to 1B it would not have been ‘unassisted’.

You sure runners were not on 1st and 2nd?

Like I say ONLY way that ‘scenario’ works.


6 posted on 04/05/2014 7:48:48 PM PDT by xrmusn ((6/98 --"I would agree with you BUT that would make both of us wrong".))
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Runner at first had to have started running before tagging the bag. Since it was a liner that was caught with no ground contact, the runner would have been required to remain on base, tag up, and then run.

The penalty for running before the ball is caught, if discovered, the runner will be called out.


7 posted on 04/05/2014 7:49:10 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: Zionist Conspirator

I don’t much about baseball, but I think the batter was out when the ball was caught and the guy on first was out when he tagged first base, no reason to throw to first because he was already out.


8 posted on 04/05/2014 7:49:20 PM PDT by ThomasThomas (Yes, You are always right /S)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
1. I don't think the infield fly rule would apply in the case of a line drive -- even a soft one.

2. Are you sure the shortstop didn't run past second base and tag Marte? Was Marte running on the play?

9 posted on 04/05/2014 7:49:26 PM PDT by Alberta's Child ("I've never seen such a conclave of minstrels in my life.")
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To: Scrambler Bob
I’m puzzled like you.

Infield fly?

I hadn't thought of that, but I don't see what that would have to do with it. There should have been no force play at second base (because the batter was out), and yet there was.

Also the official score does not mention the infield fly rule, nor did any of the commentators.

10 posted on 04/05/2014 7:50:11 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

bttt


11 posted on 04/05/2014 7:51:13 PM PDT by EveningStar
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To: Zionist Conspirator
RE: 4

I 'sped read' your description and missed a couple of important points. What you described makes no sense to me... If the ball was not caught - then a force out at 2nd base, but the batter would not be out. If the ball was caught, batter out and no force out on 2nd base... I agree - mystery to me.

12 posted on 04/05/2014 7:51:41 PM PDT by El Cid (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house...)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Now that I have giving more thought. We must know..

“Who was on first?”


13 posted on 04/05/2014 7:52:47 PM PDT by ThomasThomas (Yes, You are always right /S)
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To: Scrambler Bob

Infield fly has to be called before the ball is caught.


14 posted on 04/05/2014 7:54:10 PM PDT by Mears
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To: Nifster
Runner at first had to have started running before tagging the bag. Since it was a liner that was caught with no ground contact, the runner would have been required to remain on base, tag up, and then run.

The penalty for running before the ball is caught, if discovered, the runner will be called out.

I'm afraid I don't understand that. It was a low ball, so no one knew it was going to be caught. Of course the runner at first took off. But here's the situation: the ss caught the ball, putting the batter out. But this still left the runner at first on his way to second. According to the rules as I have always understood them, the ss would have had to have physically tagged the runner (since the force play should have been killed) or else thrown to first where the runner would be declared out because he was too far from the base to tag back up. Yet the play was unassisted. There was no throw to first. The shortstop caught the ball (batter is out) and then simply drug his foot across second base, at which point the runner was called out. How was the force play still active after the batter had been called out?

15 posted on 04/05/2014 7:55:28 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
From ESPN's play-by-play account............

Pittsburgh - Bottom of 1st
SCORE
Shelby Miller pitching for St. Louis STL PIT
S Marte walked. 0 0
T Snider lined out to shortstop, S Marte tagged out at second. 0 0
A McCutchen popped out to second. 0 0
0 Runs, 0 Hits, 0 Errors

16 posted on 04/05/2014 7:57:28 PM PDT by hole_n_one
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Very strange. Have you seen a video clip of this play anywhere online?


17 posted on 04/05/2014 7:57:35 PM PDT by Alberta's Child ("I've never seen such a conclave of minstrels in my life.")
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To: hole_n_one

Well there’s your answer. That’s what I originally suspected! LOL.


18 posted on 04/05/2014 7:59:16 PM PDT by Alberta's Child ("I've never seen such a conclave of minstrels in my life.")
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To: xrmusn
ONLY way that scenario works is if man is doubled off 2B..but you say only one on.

If he had taken it on a hop and stepped on 2B and thrown to 1B it would not have been ‘unassisted’.

You sure runners were not on 1st and 2nd?

Like I say ONLY way that ‘scenario’ works.

I know! That's what I don't get!

Yes, it was the Pirates' first inning, their first two batters. The lead-off man was walked, then the second batter hit into this "unassisted double play" at second!

19 posted on 04/05/2014 7:59:37 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

I gave you the answer. The rule is very specific. The ball was caught on the fly. Obviously the runner left before the ball was caught which according to THE RULE makes the runner out. It doesn’t matter that ‘no one knew’ that the ball would be caught. It was and that’s the rule. Trust this old blue. It required NO throw to first the runner was out by his actions. The play was unassisted because that is the proper way to score this play.

Look at the rule book or accept the explanation from one who has (many times)


20 posted on 04/05/2014 8:00:41 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: El Cid
I 'sped read' your description and missed a couple of important points. What you described makes no sense to me... If the ball was not caught - then a force out at 2nd base, but the batter would not be out. If the ball was caught, batter out and no force out on 2nd base... I agree - mystery to me.

Yes! That's it exactly! It should not have been an unassisted double play, and yet it was! The shortstop catches the ball (batter out) and then steps on second, somehow forcing out the base runner who had been at first! There was no one running from second; these were the two first batters in the Pirate line-up!

I'm beginning to sense an International Baseball Conspiracy, aimed at me personally! It's the game's revenge on me for not being a fan as a kid.

21 posted on 04/05/2014 8:02:50 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: Nifster
The penalty for running before the ball is caught, if discovered, the runner will be called out.

That's not really true. The runner can run all he wants. But he has to either be tagged, or the base where he was when the ball was hit has to be tagged, or he has to leave the field of play to be out.

For example, on a fly ball that is likely to be caught, it is common for a runner to advance half way to the next base (in case the ball is not caught), then if the ball is indeed caught, he returns back to the original base. He is not out.

22 posted on 04/05/2014 8:02:52 PM PDT by Mannaggia l'America
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To: Zionist Conspirator
I just watched the play you mentioned and took a screen capture. He actually tagged the runner (Marte) rather than stepping on the bag. Although it does happen right at second.


23 posted on 04/05/2014 8:03:14 PM PDT by Straight Vermonter (Posting from deep behind the Maple Curtain)
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To: Alberta's Child
The Play by Play

Pittsburgh - Bottom of 1st

Shelby Miller pitching for St. Louis

S Marte walked.

T Snider lined out to shortstop, S Marte tagged out at second.

A McCutchen popped out to second.

24 posted on 04/05/2014 8:05:02 PM PDT by Rome2000
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To: Zionist Conspirator

there is no way... there had to be a runner on second...


25 posted on 04/05/2014 8:08:01 PM PDT by latina4dubya (when i have money i buy books... if i have anything left, i buy 6-inch heels and a bottle of wine...)
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To: Zionist Conspirator; xrmusn
The lead-off man was walked, then the second batter hit into this "unassisted double play" at second!

It works if the baserunne4r was moving with the pitch qned the second batter lined out to the second baseman. Line out, tag out. DP 4U.

26 posted on 04/05/2014 8:08:15 PM PDT by okie01 (The Mainstream Media -- IGNORANCE ON PARADE)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

The Infield Fly Rule only applies with runners on 1st and 2nd or bases loaded with less than 2 outs. In that case a fly ball that can be caught by an infielder with normal effort results in the batter-runner being declared out and the runners may advance at their own risk. The scenario the OP described was not an infield fly rule situation. With a runner on first and a line drive caught by an infielder the runner on first does not have to advance and certainly would not be declared out by the infielder stepping on second base. If that call was made they would still be arguing. The OP must have missed something. There is no way the call would have been made the way it was described.


27 posted on 04/05/2014 8:08:34 PM PDT by deckster
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Last night in the St. Louis/Pittsburgh game, bottom of the first inning: the lead-off batter, Marte, walks. Man on first. The next batter hits a broken bat liner to the shortstop who catches it and steps on second. It is called an unassisted double play.

It could not have happened this way. No offense... but I think you missed something. The only way this could have happened is if there were a runner also on second base and he did not return to second before the fielder got there.

I'm not claiming to be an expert... but I have coached baseball for several years. There are obscure rules and I still see situations I have never seen before where they apply. But I don't see any other way this could have happened.

28 posted on 04/05/2014 8:08:54 PM PDT by Mannaggia l'America
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To: hole_n_one

Good research. basic rule.


29 posted on 04/05/2014 8:08:57 PM PDT by deweyfrank
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To: Rome2000

So he was tagged——problem solved.

.


30 posted on 04/05/2014 8:09:38 PM PDT by Mears
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To: Mannaggia l'America

No read the book. It has to do with what is considered proper advancement of the base runner. The runner may NOT start running before the ball is caught and the penalty is in fact that the runner is out.


31 posted on 04/05/2014 8:10:07 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: Zionist Conspirator

The runner at first had taken a lead off the bag. The liner to Short would have required the runner to tag-up to advance. Since the Short stop tagged the advance bag before the runner got back to first to tag up the base runner is out.


32 posted on 04/05/2014 8:11:39 PM PDT by Ouderkirk (To the left, everything must evidence that this or that strand of leftist theory is true)
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To: Zionist Conspirator; hole_n_one

I subscribe to mlb.tv premium, and as part of that subscription I can go back and watch any game.

I just went back and cued up to the play you describe.

Martes, the player on first, WAS running to second base...looked like an attempt at the Hit and Run strategy...but the shortstop did indeed catch the ball and tag the runner, like hole_n_one said.


33 posted on 04/05/2014 8:12:49 PM PDT by SoFloFreeper
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To: xp38; Zionist Conspirator

Couldn’t happen in that situation anyway. Infield fly rule only applies when there is a fly in the infield and a force at third (at minimum.)


34 posted on 04/05/2014 8:13:34 PM PDT by FredZarguna (Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!)
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To: Nifster

You really believe that to be true or are you trolling?


35 posted on 04/05/2014 8:14:02 PM PDT by Straight Vermonter (Posting from deep behind the Maple Curtain)
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To: okie01; Zionist Conspirator

It works if the baserunne4r was moving with the pitch qned the second batter lined out to the second baseman. Line out, tag out. DP 4U
= = = = = = = = = = = = = =
I agree, BUT the ‘picture’ he painted was SS caught liner, stepped on Second and ‘VOLLA’ Double play....

Without runner on 2B can’t happen - by ONLY tagging 2B.


36 posted on 04/05/2014 8:14:04 PM PDT by xrmusn ((6/98 --"I would agree with you BUT that would make both of us wrong".))
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To: Nifster
Since it was a liner that was caught with no ground contact, the runner would have been required to remain on base, tag up, and then run.

no way... runners lead off all the time... if the ball is caught, they run back to the base before they are thrown out...

37 posted on 04/05/2014 8:14:48 PM PDT by latina4dubya (when i have money i buy books... if i have anything left, i buy 6-inch heels and a bottle of wine...)
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To: SoFloFreeper

I did the same. I posted a picture of the play above.


38 posted on 04/05/2014 8:15:07 PM PDT by Straight Vermonter (Posting from deep behind the Maple Curtain)
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To: Nifster
The runner may NOT start running before the ball is caught and the penalty is in fact that the runner is out.

Only if an appeal is made to the base that the runner left early from.

To suggest that the defense is not required to make a play on a runner that left a base without tagging up is incorrect.

The defense can double up the base runner by throwing to the base he left early from, tagging the runner out, or making an official appeal before the next pitch.

The runner is not "automatically" out simply because he did not tag up properly.

39 posted on 04/05/2014 8:15:53 PM PDT by hole_n_one
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To: Ouderkirk

No the play is at the bag the runner left. You can tag the base ahead of the runner because there is no force play there.


40 posted on 04/05/2014 8:16:29 PM PDT by Straight Vermonter (Posting from deep behind the Maple Curtain)
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To: Nifster

Nope. Not even close to being true.


41 posted on 04/05/2014 8:16:57 PM PDT by FredZarguna (Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
The shortstop caught the ball (batter is out) and then simply drug his foot across second base, at which point the runner was called out. How was the force play still active after the batter had been called out?

The play-by-play says the runner was tagged out. Evidently by the SS, since it was scored unassisted.

Apparently, the SS ran across the bag and tagged the runner out where he stood in the basepath.

42 posted on 04/05/2014 8:18:54 PM PDT by okie01 (The Mainstream Media -- IGNORANCE ON PARADE)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Are you sure you were watching carefully. I just checked ESPN box scores for the game, went to the play by play and it listed “T Snider lined out to shortstop, S Marte tagged out at second.” It doesn’t say anything about stepping on the bag, it says Marte was tagged out.


43 posted on 04/05/2014 8:21:38 PM PDT by Go Gordon (Barack McGreevey Obama)
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To: Nifster
No read the book. It has to do with what is considered proper advancement of the base runner. The runner may NOT start running before the ball is caught and the penalty is in fact that the runner is out.

even if he does not tag up, the runner is not automatically out... he is out if he advances to the next base without tagging up IF the fielder throws the ball to the original base, and the umpire agrees he did not tag up... and he is then called OUT!

44 posted on 04/05/2014 8:23:04 PM PDT by latina4dubya (when i have money i buy books... if i have anything left, i buy 6-inch heels and a bottle of wine...)
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To: Nifster

That’s the softball rule not the baseball rule. In baseball the runner can leave before the catch and just has yo beat the ball back to the bag.


45 posted on 04/05/2014 8:23:41 PM PDT by lp boonie (Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
I saw the game. He was tagged.

There is I believe, only one situation where the SS would not be forced to tag Marte out for the DP (other than throw back to 1st): Marte realizes that he is caught so dead-to-rights he doesn't even try to go back, and leaves the base path. In that case he would be out on appeal; the SS would not even need to throw to 1st or tag him. [Although I don't know if the SS would officially be scored as having an unassisted DP in this case -- I actually think he would.]

46 posted on 04/05/2014 8:23:48 PM PDT by FredZarguna (Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!)
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To: Nifster

Runners almost never stay on the base and usually advance tentatively toward the next base when a pitch is thrown. They regularly return to their original base when a fly ball or line drive is caught.


47 posted on 04/05/2014 8:24:56 PM PDT by buridan
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To: Nifster

You are wrong.


48 posted on 04/05/2014 8:28:11 PM PDT by bobby.223 (Retired up in the snowy mountains of the American Redoubt and it's a great life!)
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To: Nifster
No read the book.

I did. Rule 7.08 Any runner is out when—...(d) He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a fielder.

You have to either tag the runner (as happened) or tag his base, in this case first. Tagging second does nothing to the runner. All he has to do is return to first before he or first base is tagged to be safe. Runners lead off from the base to see if the ball will be caught all the time.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2013/official_baseball_rules.pdf.

49 posted on 04/05/2014 8:31:26 PM PDT by KarlInOhio (Republican amnesty supporters don't care whether their own homes are called mansions or haciendas.)
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To: Nifster; Zionist Conspirator
"If discovered" refers to the appeal play where they throw to the bag a runner tagged up from in the hope he left before the ball was caught.

If he did , he is called out by the ump.

Marte was so close to second , probably because he was running on the pitch, that all the SS had to do was tag him instead of throwing to first.

If Marte had a normal lead he might have still got doubled off first if the SS got the ball back to 1B before the he got back, but the unwritten rule for the runner on a line drive is make sure it clears the infield before you go.

I've coached and managed for 15 years, you yell to the kids as a base coach mostly three things.

BACK!

Make sure the line drive clears the infield!

Don't run into the tag! (for the kid on second who takes off for third on a ball hit to the SS with no one on first)

50 posted on 04/05/2014 8:31:32 PM PDT by Rome2000
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