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Before Noah: Myths of the Flood Are Far Older Than the Bible
TIME ^ | 04/05/2014 | Ishaan Tharoor

Posted on 04/07/2014 1:36:42 PM PDT by SeekAndFind

Edited on 04/07/2014 1:41:51 PM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]

Darren Aronofsky’s Noah dominated the U.S. box office on its opening weekend and won critical acclaim, but not without controversy. The film, based on the biblical story in Genesis of Noah’s Ark and the Great Flood, arrived amid a deluge of outrage from religious groups. Some Christians fumed at the film’s straying from biblical Scripture. Meanwhile, a host of Muslim-majority countries banned Noah from screening in theaters because representations of Noah, a prophet of God in the Koran, are considered blasphemous. Such images “provoke the feelings of believers and are forbidden in Islam and a clear violation of Islamic law,” read a fatwa issued by Cairo’s al-Azhar University, one of the foremost institutions of Sunni Islam. Egypt has not banned the film, but Indonesia, Qatar, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates have. “It is important to respect these religions and not show the film,” lectured the main censors of the UAE.


(Excerpt) Read more at time.com ...


TOPICS: History; Religion
KEYWORDS: bahrain; egypt; epicofgilgamesh; flood; indonesia; mesopotamia; myth; noah; qatar; theflood; unitedarabemirates; worldhistory
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1 posted on 04/07/2014 1:36:42 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

AUTHOR CLAIMS:

The Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh dates back nearly 5,000 years and is thought to be perhaps the oldest written tale on the planet. In it, there is an account of the great sage Utnapishtim, who is warned of an imminent flood to be unleashed by wrathful gods. He builds a vast circular-shaped boat, reinforced with tar and pitch, that carries his relatives, grains and animals. After enduring days of storms, Utnapishtim, like Noah in Genesis, releases a bird in search of dry land.

IMPLICATION: The story of Genesis BORROWED from Gilgamesh.


2 posted on 04/07/2014 1:37:45 PM PDT by SeekAndFind (If at first you don't succeed, put it out for beta test.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Two flood stories.

Okay. So, that makes one of them untrue?


3 posted on 04/07/2014 1:38:55 PM PDT by lurk
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To: SeekAndFind

1) Doesn’t this back up the story of Noah as historically accurate and not a myth at all?

2) The director of the movie Noah is an atheist? Figures...


4 posted on 04/07/2014 1:39:53 PM PDT by Tulane
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To: SeekAndFind

I think anyone that actually understands the bible knows that the stories in Genesis predate the book itself by many, many years.

I also see the stories of a great flood in other cultures as supporting evidence of the truth of the great flood story.


5 posted on 04/07/2014 1:40:52 PM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: SeekAndFind

“IMPLICATION: The story of Genesis BORROWED from Gilgamesh.”

Or “IMPLICATION: The story of Genesis shares a common source as Gilgamesh, which is consistent with the geographical record of a flood effectively destroying Mesopotamia, which more-or-less encompassed “the entire human world” back then, and consistent with the Torah.


6 posted on 04/07/2014 1:41:27 PM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem)
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To: SeekAndFind
The Black Sea Flood Hypothesis


7 posted on 04/07/2014 1:41:37 PM PDT by Pharmboy (Democrats lie because they must.)
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To: SeekAndFind

it doesn’t. all the flood stories are passed down from the REAL flood event described in the bible.


8 posted on 04/07/2014 1:41:41 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Don’t you just love the way that “Time” lumps complaints from Christians with “I kill you where you stand” threats from Muslims and outright “bans” of screenings in Muslim countries?


9 posted on 04/07/2014 1:41:51 PM PDT by Tallguy
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To: SeekAndFind
Flood myths are so universal that the Hungarian psychoanalyst Geza Roheim thought their origins were physiological, not historical — hypothesizing that dreams of the Flood came when humans were asleep with full bladders.

Last night I was dreaming of Mount Everest. Turned out I had to get up and take a dump.

10 posted on 04/07/2014 1:42:10 PM PDT by Focault's Pendulum (I live in NJ....' Nuff said!)
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To: SeekAndFind
Leave it to Time to find a way to attempt to discredit the Bible.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3:1&version=KJV

Genesis 3:1

King James Version (KJV)

3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
11 posted on 04/07/2014 1:42:37 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: Jewbacca

~~~“IMPLICATION: The story of Genesis BORROWED from Gilgamesh.”~~~

That’s EXACTLY what they’re trying to push. You nailed it.


12 posted on 04/07/2014 1:43:17 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: SeekAndFind

There’s been interesting speculation about the flood stories being related the influx of water from the Mediterranean through the Bosporus into the Black Sea at the end of the last ice age, inundating many cities along the Black Sea’s shores. People have also speculated the Atlantis legend may have been related to the same events.

Anyway, there are so many flood stories in the region, there must have been a major major flood. Why not?


13 posted on 04/07/2014 1:44:00 PM PDT by babble-on
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To: SeekAndFind
While the Hollywood blockbuster has been a hit, it has also faced opposition from Christians and Muslims angry with its supposed misrepresentation of their scriptures.

Christians and Muslims - but no mention of the Jewish... Hmmm...

14 posted on 04/07/2014 1:46:06 PM PDT by Heartlander (We are all Rodeo Clowns now!)
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To: cuban leaf

Ditto. But I also think many Christians don’t truly understand that.


15 posted on 04/07/2014 1:46:17 PM PDT by wonkowasright (Wonko from outside the asylum)
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To: lurk

RE: Two flood stories.

Okay. So, that makes one of them untrue?

________________________________

Or it makes both not exactly true in their details.

Or one is true the other less true.

Or both are false.


16 posted on 04/07/2014 1:47:00 PM PDT by SeekAndFind (If at first you don't succeed, put it out for beta test.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Noah’s just another chance to kick God. Every Secular Humanist can’t wait to “critique” the story.


17 posted on 04/07/2014 1:47:42 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: SeekAndFind
Unfortunately, no one but Fundamentalist Protestants and Orthodox Jews acknowledge the historical truth of all of Genesis. And most people think that only Fundamentalist Protestants do.

I've been trying for almost fifteen years on this forum to disabuse people, but the message never gets over for some reason.

18 posted on 04/07/2014 1:48:16 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: F15Eagle

Nearly all the bible has been borrowed from previous cultures. That should be no surprise to anyone.


19 posted on 04/07/2014 1:49:36 PM PDT by DonaldC (A nation cannot stand in the absence of religious principle.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Anything to discount the Bible or marginalize it.

I hear this crap at least once a month from the people struggling with their relationship with God, The Creator.


20 posted on 04/07/2014 1:51:16 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously-you won't live through it anyway-Enjoy Yourself ala Louis Prima)
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To: Heartlander

“but no mention of the Jewish... Hmmm...”

Bluntly, Jews are taught not to correct heresy, in that doing so historically usually ended with us getting killed.

So, yes, don’t except public outcries from Jewish groups about what is done to our scriptures.


21 posted on 04/07/2014 1:51:31 PM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem)
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To: DonaldC

I disagree.

But yes, that has been claimed.


22 posted on 04/07/2014 1:52:14 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: DonaldC

That would be nearly impossible as there was no means of mass communication or cultural exchange that would have introduced these stories at the time they were written. Not to mention, the oral tradition is far older.


23 posted on 04/07/2014 1:52:58 PM PDT by CityCenter (Resist Obamacare!)
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To: F15Eagle

I think you read his post backwards.


24 posted on 04/07/2014 1:53:11 PM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem)
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To: SeekAndFind

Well, that seals it for me. Not only is the movie “the least biblical film ever made”, Noah is portrayed as the world’s “first environmentalist.” Why was the manbearpig not cast in the leading role?


25 posted on 04/07/2014 1:53:21 PM PDT by shove_it (my real nickname is Otter)
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To: Jewbacca

If it has said ‘borrowed by later cultures’ then I would have agreed.


26 posted on 04/07/2014 1:54:27 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: Jewbacca

That is a shame - they could bring a better understanding of the scriptures for everyone.


27 posted on 04/07/2014 1:56:47 PM PDT by Heartlander (We are all Rodeo Clowns now!)
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To: SeekAndFind; All
Noah wants to kill the unborn children in his wife's womb and this is not considered blasphemy when God told him to build the Ark to save his family?

Friends of mine walked out in 20 minutes after enduring the constant violence depicted.

God's directive, before and after is not presented. Nor the fact that it took 100 years for him to build it (instead of using fallen angels as in the movie).

The movie is disgusting.

28 posted on 04/07/2014 1:58:31 PM PDT by sr4402
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To: Heartlander

http://www.sdjewishworld.com/2014/03/29/movie-noah-book-better/


29 posted on 04/07/2014 2:00:58 PM PDT by hecht (america 9/11, Israel 24/7)
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To: sr4402
Hey, some were wearing raincoats!! Never rained before, but check out the two guys on the right (plus a few more).


30 posted on 04/07/2014 2:01:07 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: SeekAndFind

This is a lie, the Biblical account is the oldest (even if Moses wasn’t the first to write it down).

http://creation.com/noahs-flood-and-the-gilgamesh-epic

“It makes more sense that Genesis was the original and the pagan myths arose as distortions of that original account. While Moses lived long after the event, he probably acted as the editor of far older sources.9 For example, Genesis 10:19 gives matter-of-fact directions, ‘as you go toward Sodom and Gomorrah and Admah and Zeboiim’. These were the cities of the plain God destroyed for their extreme wickedness 500 years before Moses. Yet Genesis gives directions at a time when they were well-known landmarks, not buried under the Dead Sea.

It is common to make legends out of historical events, but not history from legends. The liberals also commonly assert that monotheism is a late evolutionary religious development. The Bible teaches that mankind was originally monotheistic. Archaeological evidence suggests the same, indicating that only later did mankind degenerate into idolatrous pantheism.10

For instance, in Genesis, God’s judgment is just, he is patient with mankind for 120 years (Genesis 6:3), shows mercy to Noah, and is sovereign. Conversely, the gods in the Gilgamesh Epic are capricious and squabbling, cower at the Flood and are famished without humans to feed them sacrifices. That is, the human writers of the Gilgamesh Epic rewrote the true account, and made their gods in their own image.

The whole Gilgamesh-derivation theory is based on the discredited Documentary Hypothesis.9 This assumes that the Pentateuch was compiled by priests during the Babylonian Exile in the 6th century BC. But the internal evidence shows no sign of this, and every sign of being written for people who had just come out of Egypt. The Eurocentric inventors of the Documentary Hypothesis, such as Julius Wellhausen, thought that writing hadn’t been invented by Moses’ time. But many archaeological discoveries of ancient writing show that this is ludicrous.”


31 posted on 04/07/2014 2:03:56 PM PDT by JSDude1 (Defeat Hagan, elect a Constutional Conservative: Dr. Greg Brannon!)
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To: SeekAndFind

or both stories derive from the telling and retelling of an actual event that happened in the distant past that nearly all cultures the world over remember.


32 posted on 04/07/2014 2:05:08 PM PDT by TexasFreeper2009 (Obama lied .. the economy died.)
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To: TexasFreeper2009

Exactly!


33 posted on 04/07/2014 2:06:43 PM PDT by CityCenter (Resist Obamacare!)
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To: SeekAndFind

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html

“The stories below are flood stories from the world’s folklore. I have included stories here if (1) they are stories; (2) they are folklore, not historical accounts or fiction by a known author; and (3) they involve a flood. In most borderline cases, I included the story here anyway. For example, one story (Hopi) tells of a flood which was avoided and never occurred.

My method for collecting these stories is simply to collect every flood story I find. I have omitted a few extremely fragmentary accounts, such as sources that say “These people have a legend of a flood in which most people were killed” and little or nothing more. The stories are summarized both to save space and to avoid copyright infringements, but I have attempted to preserve all the motifs and all the names that were given in the cited account. However, where the story gives intricate account of events before and/or after the flood (such as in the Zhuang story of Bubo vs. the Thunder God), some of the details peripheral to the flood itself may have been summarized out of existence. In a few cases, two or more overlapping and non-contradictory fragments from the same culture were combined into one summary. Complete references are given at the end; consult them for more details.

Within each continent or region, stories are grouped by language family. See Language Grouping for Flood Stories for elaboration of the language groups which, as best I can determine, the stories belong to.”

(It looks like LOTS of cultures have residual memories of The Flood. Well over 100 people groups listed here. Some had better methods of writing them down and preserving them. )


34 posted on 04/07/2014 2:08:04 PM PDT by BwanaNdege
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To: hecht

Thanks, but my comment was actually more about how liberals (Time) take every chance possible to lump Christians and Muslims together…


35 posted on 04/07/2014 2:10:21 PM PDT by Heartlander (We are all Rodeo Clowns now!)
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To: SeekAndFind

Or:

Implication: The event really happened, as recorded by numerous people groups.


36 posted on 04/07/2014 2:16:25 PM PDT by Theo (May Christ be exalted above all.)
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To: SeekAndFind
A Comparative Study of the Flood Accounts in the Gilgamesh Epic and Genesis
37 posted on 04/07/2014 2:20:11 PM PDT by DannyTN
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To: SeekAndFind

Manu, in the Hindu Vedas, is taught as the primordial Noah.

Personally, I believe all of the religions are talking about the same event, and probably the same people.


38 posted on 04/07/2014 2:20:40 PM PDT by Talisker (One who commands, must obey.)
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To: SeekAndFind

The Mayan civilization, on the other side of the planet, had a flood story as well.

From what I can tell, the most recent flood story is the story in Genesis. Perhaps it is correcting all of the others?

The other flood stories have squabbling gods and mankind is delivered by his own strength and cunning. In the Genesis story, mankind is delivered by God.


39 posted on 04/07/2014 2:33:03 PM PDT by bexardave
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To: Talisker

http://powerpointparadise.com/blog/2011/02/chinese-mythology-clarified-by-miao-legend-genesis-hebrew-history/

The ‘Miau Tso’/’Miao Zu’/ ‘Miao people’ of Southern China originally settled in Kiangsi province, from where they were later driven out by the Han Chinese. A certain Miao tribe claims in fact that they are not themselves of Chinese stock, but insist that they are descended from Japheth, one of the three sons of Noah, i.e. of Indo-European descent!

Like the Chinese, the Miao are yet another ancient nation that remembers some of their earliest patriarchs. Not just that, but they possess surprisingly accurate recollections of the Creation, the Flood, and even of the Tower of Babel and its confusion of languages! Many of the finer details of their accounts coincide almost identically with the Biblical record in Moses’ Book of Genesis.

They were found to already possess this knowledge in the form of ancient couplets, when they for the first time encountered Western missionaries. The oral traditions in which the descent of the Miao was preserved, owe their purity to the fact that they have been recited faithfully and in full at funerals, weddings, and other public occasions for thousands of years, since time immemorial. Thus they are able to reproduce the earliest names of their primogenitors.

Now here’s the corker! They coincide not only accurately with the Hebrew Bible, but also clear up mythical details of the earliest, mystifying Chinese mythology.

According to the Miao, we all descended from the First Man, whose Miao name translated in English means “dirt” or “Earth”, which is identical to the meaning of the name “Adam“, the first man in the Bible. One of Adam’s sons is called Seth, while dirt’s son was called Se-Teh! The grand- and great-grandchildren of Seth are called Methuselah, Lamech and Noah in Genesis. In Miao records they are named Lusu, Gehlo, Lama, and Nu Ah! Virtually identical names. And Nu-Ah was married to a lady called “Ga Bo Lu En”

In the Miao record, Nu Ah had also three sons, called Lo Han, Lo Shen, and Lo Ya Phu. Again virtually identical, with Lo meaning something like “Lao” in Chinese, meaning “old” or “venerable one”, like Lao Zi, for example, the famous father of Taoism.

Even the children and grandchildren of Noah’s three sons are amazingly similar. According to Genesis, Ham had Cush and Mizraim, Shem had Elam and Asshur, while Jafeth had Gomer! According to Miao record, Lo Han had Cusah and Mesay, Lo Shen had Elan and Ngasshur, whereas Lo Ya Phu had GoMen, from whom this particular Miao tribe claims to have descended.

The Miao have always had close contact with the Han Chinese, especially before they were driven out, and six of the Miao tribes actually mixed in with the Chinese. Some of these names like Nu-Ah and Lo Shen, are amazingly similar to two of the Three Sovereigns’ names, to wit: Nü-Wa and Shen Nong!

Now when we compare these two Chinese primogenitors’ names in the light of the far more accurate Miao record, plus the even more accurate Biblical record (because of the Hebrews’ rigorous copy rules), we come to amazing conclusions removing much of the fog around these personages Nü-Wa and Shen-Nong.


40 posted on 04/07/2014 2:33:29 PM PDT by SeekAndFind (If at first you don't succeed, put it out for beta test.)
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To: bexardave

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths#Oceania

Many African cultures have an oral tradition of a flood myth including the Kwaya, Mbuti, Maasai, Mandin, and Yoruba peoples. The Maasai myth, which has obvious Judeo-Christian influences, is as follows:

Once upon a time the rivers began to flood. The god told two people to get into a ship. He told them to take lots of seed and to take lots of animals. The water of the flood eventually covered the mountains. Finally the flood stopped. Then one of the men, wanting to know if the water had dried up let a dove loose. The dove returned. Later he let loose a hawk which did not return. Then the men left the boat and took the animals and the seeds with them.


41 posted on 04/07/2014 2:38:35 PM PDT by SeekAndFind (If at first you don't succeed, put it out for beta test.)
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To: cuban leaf

Exactly. TIME shills again.


42 posted on 04/07/2014 2:41:55 PM PDT by Viennacon
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To: Pharmboy

If the Black Sea and Mediterranean Sea were once valleys or low areas and flooded at once, that would be a significant flood.


43 posted on 04/07/2014 2:49:43 PM PDT by NotTallTex
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To: NotTallTex
From here."The Atlantic waters found a way through the present Gibraltar Strait and rapidly refilled the Mediterranean 5.33 million years ago in an event known as the Zanclean flood," it said.

"Although the flood started at low water discharges that may have lasted for up to several thousand years, our results suggest that 90 percent of the water was transferred in a short period ranging from a few months to two years."

No one with intelligence was around 5 million years ago...so history was blind to this; but the Black Sea filling was a different story.

44 posted on 04/07/2014 2:57:05 PM PDT by Pharmboy (Democrats lie because they must.)
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To: F15Eagle
He's just waiting for a diversion to get our minds off of his namesake fiasco:

Blood tests have shown that a 12-year-old girl in Ghana who died of viral fever with bleeding did not have Ebola, Health Minister Sherry Ayittey said on Monday.

Fatal virus in Ghana tests negative for Ebola

45 posted on 04/07/2014 3:00:07 PM PDT by MamaDearest
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To: SeekAndFind

Forget flood myths, here in New Mexico mere rain is a myth.


46 posted on 04/07/2014 3:00:55 PM PDT by Tijeras_Slim
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To: SeekAndFind

The end of the last great Ice Age occurred about 7,000 years ago, just about the time when recorded history began. Each of the great Mideastern religions, both pagan and biblical, has a great flood story that essentially starts the era of recorded human history. Geology shows the amount of ice that suddenly melted (no AGW then) was massive beyond belief. All that water had to go somewhere. Hence, the most logical explanation is that each of the great religions recorded its own version of the same historic and geological events.


47 posted on 04/07/2014 3:07:13 PM PDT by libstripper
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To: Focault's Pendulum

My toilet dreams always involve a desperate search for a bathroom with a functional toilet, none of which I find. Then I get up and take a pee.


48 posted on 04/07/2014 3:09:44 PM PDT by libstripper
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To: SeekAndFind

A lot of very interesting info in the posts. Thanks.


49 posted on 04/07/2014 3:13:37 PM PDT by jonathonandjennifer
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To: NotTallTex; Pharmboy

It likely would have created too, violent thunderstorms in the general vicinity. I’m sure it seemed to the inhabitants thereabout like the end of the world.


50 posted on 04/07/2014 3:17:58 PM PDT by onedoug
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