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Scrutiny Over Photos Said to Tie Russia Units to Ukraine (NYT issuing a retraction?
New York Times ^ | APRIL 22, 2014 | Michael R. Gordon and Andrew E. Kramer

Posted on 04/24/2014 12:36:32 PM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist

A collection of photographs that Ukraine says shows the presence of Russian forces in the eastern part of the country, and which the United States cited as evidence of Russian involvement, has come under scrutiny.

The photographs were submitted by Ukraine last week to the Organization for Security and Cooperation, an organization in Vienna that has been monitoring the situation in Ukraine.

Some of the photographs were also provided by American officials to Secretary of State John Kerry so he could show them when he met in Geneva last Thursday with his counterparts from the European Union, Russia, and Ukraine.

...

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: 113th; agitprop; andrewekramer; austria; crimea; donetsk; elections; euromaidan; europeanunion; extrawordsintitle; faketitle; fascism; fascists; georgia; ibtz; johnkerry; kerrylied; kerrylies; lavrov; libya2; maidan; michaelrgordon; newyorktimes; obama; obamalied; obamalies; obamasbuttboys; osc; ponomaryov; pravysektor; putin; putinsbuttboys; rightsector; russia; russianoccupation; sloviansk; slovyansk; soros; sorosbuttboys; svoboda; syria2; ukraine; vienna; vyachislavponomaryov
Man oh man. Read this and be prepared to be shocked! Not good for the Obama administration's reliability. And on page A9? Nevvvvver. The NYT would nevvvvver do that. NYT: what the Obama administration relies upon to cram their agenda down your throat?
1 posted on 04/24/2014 12:36:32 PM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Hmmm. What could the Ukraine possibly have to gain by presenting fraudulent photos of an alleged Russian invasion???


2 posted on 04/24/2014 12:44:34 PM PDT by rjsimmon (The Tree of Liberty Thirsts)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist; dangus; little jeremiah; caww; Count of Monte Fisto; tcrlaf

A must read.

Surely the NYT would never seek to be a mouth piece for the Obama administration?!

Fox News - will they have a ‘field day’ with this —— or not?


3 posted on 04/24/2014 12:44:38 PM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist; wetphoenix; Psalm 144

A must read...


4 posted on 04/24/2014 12:47:47 PM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
Just doing a little digging at discover the networks......

Al-Marayati, Salam: Representative of the U.S. government at the annual Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe conference
5 posted on 04/24/2014 12:50:49 PM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist; Cementjungle; jjsheridan5

Blistering.

I wonder what O’Reilly will say about the New York Times concerning this?


6 posted on 04/24/2014 12:53:03 PM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
Whatever it takes.


7 posted on 04/24/2014 12:56:35 PM PDT by McGruff (Clinton had his Kosovo, Obama has his Ukraine.)
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To: rjsimmon
The only question is whether they can prove the outsiders are special forces or not.

Vyachislav Ponomaryov, the de facto mayor of Slovyansk, who was ushered into office by pro-Russian militants, acknowledged in a news conference on Tuesday that armed men had come to his town from outside Ukraine but vociferously denied that they were Russian Special Forces.

8 posted on 04/24/2014 12:57:35 PM PDT by Ingtar (The NSA - "We're the only part of government who actually listens to the people.")
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
Yep...the photos are a fake...along with so many others now out there.

Same with the antisemitic leaflets, which dumbo Kerry actually commented on in a public speech the entire world heard...they were fake as well.

Pretty bad when our so called “leaders” don't check their resources but just blurt out anything which supports their agenda.

The agenda has been to forbid any reporting on the US actions and support (behind the scenes) in Ukraine. Cannot use the world Nazi anywhere in MSM, and everything must be to attack Russia and blame Russia for all that's occurring in Ukraine’s upheavals.

I believe the US is just as bad in Russia in the propaganda war.....both are covering the fact they are already in proxy war mode. Meanwhile US is fully taking over operations economically and politically in Ukraine....and determining the military actions we see playing out.

EU is sleeping on the sidelines.

9 posted on 04/24/2014 12:58:51 PM PDT by caww
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Obama lied, cities fried.


10 posted on 04/24/2014 12:59:44 PM PDT by SpinnerWebb (IN-SAPORIBVS-SICVT-PVLLVM)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

There are still those who believe that the men taking the buildings are friends and neighbors who are pro-Russian demonstrators.


11 posted on 04/24/2014 1:08:18 PM PDT by Mike Darancette (Do The Math)
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To: PieterCasparzen; All

Check this out...


12 posted on 04/24/2014 1:08:40 PM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
Business owner says sales are up on flak jackets and Balaclavas since start of unrest this Ukraine Military Supply... Balaclavas and flak jackets amongst best sellers..which does support Putin's point about gear being widely available in Ukraine


13 posted on 04/24/2014 1:15:41 PM PDT by caww
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
False Witness, the new normal for the US government and the Western MSM, now erupts with CYA backtracking.

More pustules on the body politic.

14 posted on 04/24/2014 1:29:15 PM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
This photo was actually taken in n Slavyansk, Ukraine, The picture was among others Kiev gave the OSCE mission to Ukraine to ‘prove’ Russian involvement in the massive unrest gripping the Donetsk region....Freelance photographer Maxim Dondyuk , who told NYT... “Nobody asked my permission to use it.”

State Dept’s Psaki admitting... “the assertion that the photograph in the American briefing materials had been taken in Russia was incorrect”


15 posted on 04/24/2014 1:36:18 PM PDT by caww
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To: Navy Patriot

I have to say that since following the events in Ukraine, very little being reported in the US MSM is even reporting what’s going on let alone the facts.....

...it’s like MSM here reports when it’s politically advantageous to do so....there’s much happening not even reported....let alone falsely when it is.

What is interesting are the reporters ‘on the ground’ appear to be monitoring each other on line......if one or the other doesn’t get it right it’s short order before they’re corrected...and at least questioned to make it confirmed or not.

So once these guys “have it” the news then is sent to MSM headquarters where it’s determined what and when or if it will be a story or not.

Currently there seems to be a “Block” on anything reported that would make the US appear in a bad light...it all must be geared toward blaming Russia/Putin...or Ukrainians themselves.

Many moving parts in Ukraine with guns and anger.....


16 posted on 04/24/2014 1:43:31 PM PDT by caww
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To: Navy Patriot
BTW assuming you're military....take a look how those guys are holding their guns...if they were Russian or trained at all they wouldn't be pointing their guns at each other! They are amateurs.
17 posted on 04/24/2014 1:47:42 PM PDT by caww
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To: caww
For a long time I have read the Western MSM as a criminal investigator reads testimony, looking for the lies, omissions and disinformation, and using history versus revisionist history to expose the trends and mechanisms of propaganda.

It, and experience, helps a lot.

18 posted on 04/24/2014 2:09:49 PM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: caww

LOL. It looks like half of of their writing nowadays is English in Cyrillic script. The sign reads “Partisan”, then two words I don’t know, then “Tourism Paintball”.


19 posted on 04/24/2014 2:15:07 PM PDT by SeeSharp
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To: caww
They are amateurs.

I would tend to agree.

The US military (and the Russians) has noticeable improvement in training, discipline and weapons discipline since I was in Vietnam. We were good, but not nearly as good as present day soldiers and sailors.

20 posted on 04/24/2014 2:18:11 PM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: caww

I absolutely agree with any cynicism towards the MSM, but sometimes it’s a simple motivation: if they don’t have reporters on the ground, they don’t cover it. And they no longer have the resources they used to, nor does anyone want to go where they are no longer welcome. Consider Baghdad’s housing of CNN personnel.


21 posted on 04/24/2014 2:22:22 PM PDT by dangus
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To: Navy Patriot

I’ve learned to look closely at photos and consider many things about them as I do....it wasn’t too hard to see that anyone pointing his gun, as these guys did, would have never made it through basic training!

I do believe there are under-groups other than their local militias there. Imo,(and don’t we all have them) I can see Russia sending Chechnian’s to fight the Nazi elements that are increasing in numbers in Ukraine. Which I think is some of what’s happening currently.

Trouble is Kiev Gov. is calling the Pro-Russian Militia’s terroists in order to justify sending troops, (they cannot otherwise without declaring war), because the EU and US will not and cannot support Kiev Government with an unstable environment as is now.....no elections...which I believe the Kiev Gov. prefers there not be.

Russia, on the other hand knows well the US has taken over running things in Ukraine’s Governance and otherwise and embedding US teams to control that.

Not so sure the US would restrain as much as Russia has so far if this was happening on our borders....but then with Obama at the helm he’d not do a thing even then!


22 posted on 04/24/2014 2:40:43 PM PDT by caww
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To: dangus
MSM cooks their own goose, in foreign countries under seige, because they pretty much put the reporters in positions of danger by taking their stories and twisting them to suite the political agenda here in the US. Foreigners do hear the stories and become enraged because the truth is twisted....they have no other recourse than kidnap or cut out the reporters and rely on their own people for getting the story out.

Unfortunately without MSM then nobody hears and their plights can be easily forgotten.

Look at Syria, Libya and Egypt now...all a mess...I'm sorry to say the US has created and done more harm than good in trying to dispose of nation leaders....and they seem to be backing the worst groups while doing so...for which makes me ashamed it’’s my country doing so.

23 posted on 04/24/2014 2:47:20 PM PDT by caww
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To: caww
Trouble is Kiev Gov. is calling the Pro-Russian Militia’s terroists in order to justify sending troops, (they cannot otherwise without declaring war),

Huh?

24 posted on 04/24/2014 2:48:28 PM PDT by VeniVidiVici (Play the 'Knockout Game' with someone owning a 9mm and you get what you deserve)
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To: caww
I do believe there are under-groups other than their local militias there. Imo,(and don’t we all have them)...

Yep.

...Kiev Gov. is calling the Pro-Russian Militia’s terroists in order to justify sending troops, (they cannot otherwise without declaring war), because the EU and US will not and cannot support Kiev Government...

Yep, keep in mind the US can take no LEGAL action without UN approval, impossible considering Russia - China (and possibly others) veto.

Not so sure the US would restrain as much as Russia has so far if this was happening on our borders...

Depends on who or what was gettin' in.

I can see Russia sending Chechen’s to fight the Nazi elements that are increasing in numbers in Ukraine.

Saved best for last,

Putin's Russia is the only entity in history that has co-opted and forced a Muslim military to abandon it's loyalty to the Islamic people of it's namesake, and to fight as mercenaries for Islam's enemy, Christianity. No small feat.

Obama is doing the opposite.

25 posted on 04/24/2014 3:04:40 PM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: VeniVidiVici

What’s the huh? for.

The Kiev Gov. can’t send troops out without a declaration of war according to their Constitution, which is what they did. ....So they called them ‘anti-terrorist special forces’.....and therefore labeled the Pro-Russian’s, who have secured Government Buildings and control of those cities..terrorists. Additionally Kiev sends Svoboda/Pravy Sektor/relabeled “National Guard” thugs where needed....just as they used them for the violence which occured with maidan...and they admit this.

According to the Pres. of Ukraine..”The ‘terrorists’ have effectively taken the whole Donetsk region hostage”.

And of course most likely Brennan and Biden have intervened to push things along as events took place soon after each had arrived and or left Ukraine.

But it was when Turchynov called for a new anti-terror action, things got messy


26 posted on 04/24/2014 3:13:33 PM PDT by caww
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To: Navy Patriot
Very interesting...I had not considered what Putin did with the Islamist’s but you're right!....., Heck when Putin got creamed in Chechnya, when he was head of KBG, that wasn't going to happen again as President...he finally put the thugs in office over Chechnya and just let them have at it there...and they do and they are...it's a horrible war ridden country now. But Putin draws from them to fight where he needs ...and all are truly afraid of them...they take no prisoners and love to torture. ...(((Keep in mind the US can take no LEGAL action without UN approval, impossible considering Russia - China (and possibly others) veto))).....

Agree, but they can dance around getting UN approval by claiming what they are doing is "assisting" the Kiev Gov. control the criminal/terrorist element...and then run these under-groups where they want them..particularly the right Sector thugs, who are numerous. Coupled with the Nazi element they have an "army".

It will get terribly and horribly bloody if the Chec's and Nazi's go at it. Not to mention fear ravaged in Ukraine....which as these numbers grow, and the population already seeing them, they are already afraid...they do not see the US helping so they will indeed cry out to Russia then who would be more than happy to accommodate the need.

27 posted on 04/24/2014 3:29:21 PM PDT by caww
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To: caww

Our “leaders” just can’t get it through their heads that the internet allows everyone to check stuff.


28 posted on 04/24/2014 3:31:44 PM PDT by VerySadAmerican
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To: Navy Patriot

You are so right...all you mentioned comes into how one should see the MSM.....But also..

.... if you note who is seeing who, and where....if you note whenever McCain is anywhere somethings going to follow with that nations leadership and or “adjustment”. Just as Obama is in Asia now and Michelle-ee bab-eee visited China....in hopes of staving off Russia’s advances on the Asian deals pending...

But in In Ukraine recently it first got messier after CIA Director Brennan’s visit.... It RE-started after Biden... so much for an Independent Ukraine!.... They are in no way whatsoever in charge of anything in their country...as said before... the current Gov is simply the “doorkeeper” for the US to come and go as they please....and any wonder why the EU is pretty much out of the picture currently....it’s our money and our teams pushing buttons in Ukraine.


29 posted on 04/24/2014 3:43:22 PM PDT by caww
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To: SeeSharp

I don’t know for I can’t read the language...I do know they refer quite often to outside militias etc...perhaps Russians as well, coming in as ‘tourists’ so might explain that.


30 posted on 04/24/2014 3:46:03 PM PDT by caww
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To: caww
The first half of the Russian Campaign in Chechnya was difficult for Russia, with some stinging setbacks and losses.

Chronicles from Russian soldiers at the front show the rise of Russian patriotism and concern for Christianity during this campaign, including the adoption of Christian symbols and battle cries against a dedicated and merciless enemy.

The Russians and their officers learned how to engage and defeat the Chechen terrorist and military, each in their own backyard, rugged mountains or scattered towns.

Putin may have been entirely political in his administration of the Chechen Campaign, but for most of the Russian military, it was a Christian campaign, and part of an overall improvement in Russian military effectiveness and discipline.

The Russian military of today is far improved over the cold war Soviet military.

I personally don't think Putin will put the Chechens anywhere near Ukraine, he wants his MOST disciplined Russian troops there, the least hotheaded and least likely to screw up and provide a real provocation.

Putin's game is to get the west to loose a live weapon eastward, while NOT loosing one of his westward. In the meantime, he will use Obama's mob rule and Occupy tactics against Maidan and the US, just like they used the same against Russia's economy.

31 posted on 04/24/2014 4:20:17 PM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: caww
In the 90's, The Red Chinese Army found it could buy the DemoRat Party and the Clintons with DemoRat campaign contributions, so they bought ICBM, MIRV and targeting technology.

Of course the DemoRats think they can buy Chinese cooperation against the Russians, however, they will pay for it, and then not get it. The Chinese are not stupid, like DemoRat Plantation dwellers.

32 posted on 04/24/2014 4:28:56 PM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: Navy Patriot

....”the DemoRats think they can buy Chinese cooperation against the Russians, however, they will pay for it, and then not get it. The Chinese are not stupid, like DemoRat Plantation dwellers”......

Oh you are right about that! Besides with the rail system going full bore connecting China and other European nations, clear to Egypt etc. Why would China have any concerns for the USA.....their markets will be over there ultimately and plentiful, not to mention for Russia as well. It’ll be a hop skip and jump to Euorpean markets as well...

China will only ‘USE’ the US til they are done with milking it of what they want.

What’s actually worse....is once all the Europena nations, Russia and China all get hooked up....what’s that leave us?

Mexico and South America...which will pull us down all the more., short of investing highly in those nations....


33 posted on 04/24/2014 5:13:09 PM PDT by caww
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To: Navy Patriot

Interesting..again.
I only recently recalled what went on in Chechnya, enough to remember Putin didn’t take it well by any means....but knew nothing of the battle cry for Christianity? Guess I am limited in my understanding of that time more than I thought!

As for who he does put in Ukraine...I can only guess, which I obviously have. However if he operates anything like he did going into Crimea, well even even now our own military has been astounded with how he pulled that off so seamlessly.

I’ve spoken with some military people who said the entire operation and how it was executed was pretty astounding. a lot of deception and much denial also came into play.

Still The Eastern part of Ukraine is another story as we’ve seen already....different breed of people there. And it’s not clear they want to join Russia, rather be basically able to govern themselves.

Am getting tired, so off for a nap...just got off from a long couple days and catching up to me!


34 posted on 04/24/2014 5:28:39 PM PDT by caww
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To: wetphoenix

Ping for critique.


35 posted on 04/24/2014 5:44:11 PM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: caww

Well, if it’s true they can’t use Ukrainian armed forces against Russian subversives in the Ukraine it makes perfect sense why they would hire mercenaries.

Hopefully they are using this time to call up their armed forces so when the Russians invade they can kick some Russian ass.


36 posted on 04/24/2014 6:04:12 PM PDT by VeniVidiVici (Play the 'Knockout Game' with someone owning a 9mm and you get what you deserve)
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To: Navy Patriot

In fact these photos were discussed numerous times on this forum. Maybe one in a hundred E. Ukrainian ‘terrorist’ looks any like a military regular. Most of these people are in their 40s which in not typical for Russian military, who are usually around 20 yo and even special forces are well under 30.
There might be some Russian presense but the majority of people are locals or Crimeans, probably ex-military who came to support the locals.


37 posted on 04/24/2014 6:10:57 PM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: caww

It’s a billboard advertising paintball.


38 posted on 04/24/2014 7:02:24 PM PDT by SeeSharp
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To: caww

Placemark


39 posted on 04/24/2014 10:53:34 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: wetphoenix

....”might be some Russian presense but the majority of people are locals or Crimeans, probably ex-military who came to support the locals”....

General Breedlove made a point to clarify this saying...:

“The un-disciplined weapon handling and un-professional behavior of these pro-Russian, or anti-Maidan, troops are ‘completely inconsistent with any properly trained military’ force... Rifle muzzles are repeatedly pointed to femoral arteries of fellow soldiers, while fingers are on triggers.

To the grunt’s eyes the troops in eastern Ukraine look and behave like reservists or airsoft hobbyists whom have never trained together and have serious deficiencies in infantry small unit tactics and MOUT. .....These troops have no night fighting capabilities, no ballistic protection, no or really poor comms and have clearly forgotten a good part of their infantryman’s skills.

“....the weapons they carry are primarily ex-Soviet, Ukrainian army and security forces issue. Rest of the equipment is clearly commercial or western surplus. That is exactly the kind of materiel that Ukrainian civilians would be likely to get their hands on in large numbers.”

(Sidenote: It’s also established they’ve taken weapons etc. at police barracks in the towns they have taken.)


40 posted on 04/25/2014 7:35:03 PM PDT by caww
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To: VerySadAmerican

Almost lost this off the page...sorry I missed it....and you’re right.....they can’t understand that with the internet we can check things out and find the truth...even if it means wading through all the junk!

Right now it’s difficult to get the truth concerning Ukraine...there are so many players using various “militia’s”....and that’s because there are so many “Militia’s” for hire more than willing to fight for either side...many go ‘where the money is’ and who can pay it...and you can bet they play one side against the other to get the best wad in their pockets.

That’s not to confuse those Ukranians who are sincerely fighting against the Kiev Gov.....


41 posted on 04/25/2014 8:08:14 PM PDT by caww
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To: VerySadAmerican

Almost lost this off the page...sorry I missed it....and you’re right.....they can’t understand that with the internet we can check things out and find the truth...even if it means wading through all the junk!

Right now it’s difficult to get the truth concerning Ukraine...there are so many players using various “militia’s”....and that’s because there are so many “Militia’s” for hire more than willing to fight for either side...many go ‘where the money is’ and who can pay it...and you can bet they play one side against the other to get the best wad in their pockets.

That’s not to confuse those Ukranians who are sincerely fighting against the Kiev Gov.....


42 posted on 04/25/2014 8:08:14 PM PDT by caww
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