Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

UPDATE 3-Ukraine moves special forces to Odessa, helicopter downed in east
Reuters ^

Posted on 05/05/2014 4:07:25 PM PDT by FreeInWV

ODESSA/SLAVIANSK, Ukraine, May 5 (Reuters) - Pro-Russian rebels shot down a Ukrainian helicopter in fierce fighting near the eastern town of Slaviansk on Monday, and Kiev drafted police special forces to the southwestern port city of Odessa to halt a feared westward spread of rebellion.

Ukraine said the Odessa force, based on "civil activists", would replace local police who had failed to tackle rebel actions at the weekend. Its dispatch was a clear signal from Kiev that, while tackling rebellion in the east, it would vigorously resist any sign of a slide to a broader civil war.

...

(Excerpt) Read more at in.reuters.com ...


TOPICS: Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: kiev1; mi24; ukraine
A couple of interesting things here:

First, all of the police were dismissed and replaced by Kiev's hand-picked civil activists. What does history tell us about this tactics?

Second, a MI-24 (HIND-D) helicopter was shot down. What purpose does such an aircraft have policing protestors??? I mean really! That is an armored heavy attach helicopter. I am also wondering who shot it down? It wasn't a MANPAD and they were designed to be resistant to .50 cal fire.

1 posted on 05/05/2014 4:07:26 PM PDT by FreeInWV
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: FreeInWV

More from Janes...

http://www.janes.com/article/37330/two-ukrainian-mi-24s-shot-down-by-manpads


2 posted on 05/05/2014 4:09:24 PM PDT by FreeInWV (Have you had enough change yet?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: FreeInWV

Police Helicopter

3 posted on 05/05/2014 4:13:51 PM PDT by FreeInWV (Have you had enough change yet?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: FreeInWV

Actually, TWO helicopters were downed today.

Video of the Mi-24 downing shows a STUPID PILOT, that hovered for a long time at less than 100 feet, until it was hit in the rear by an RPG at close range.
That is the one that crashed in the river.


4 posted on 05/05/2014 4:14:45 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf

It was reported that the one was downed by large caliber machine gun fire. Whatever that was, I want one!


5 posted on 05/05/2014 4:17:45 PM PDT by FreeInWV (Have you had enough change yet?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: FreeInWV

Maybe the protestors shot down the helicopters? If helicopters keep dropping out of the sky like this I might not want to call them protestors anymore.


6 posted on 05/05/2014 4:22:50 PM PDT by Corporate Democrat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: FreeInWV

“It was reported that the one was downed by large caliber machine gun fire.”

Likely it would be either the AA-equipped APC, or the truck-mounted AA cannon, that the locals got when the Ukrainian Airborne company surrendered a couple of weeks ago.


7 posted on 05/05/2014 4:23:21 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf

That makes sense.


8 posted on 05/05/2014 4:25:05 PM PDT by FreeInWV (Have you had enough change yet?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: FreeInWV

Fresh video of fighting on the edge of Slovyansk.

Damned brave cameraman. Listen closely, and you can hear the buzz of the angry bees.
http://youtu.be/bf0OFAfL5Q0


9 posted on 05/05/2014 4:34:47 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: FreeInWV

Ukraine: 4 troops killed by pro-Russian militiamen in Slovyansk, 30 wounded
http://wapo.st/1q760GP

EuroMaidanPR has started posting Death cards from the fighting. A VERY high percentage of Kiev soldiers being killed are OFFICERS.


10 posted on 05/05/2014 4:46:27 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: FreeInWV

Someone please break this down for me. Is the Ukrainian military pro-new government or pro-old government? Are the protesters Russian secessionists, pro-old government or pro-EU?

My confusion just reinforces my belief we have no business getting involved in this cluster f**k.


11 posted on 05/05/2014 4:52:56 PM PDT by Nachoman (Wisdom is learned, cynicism is earned.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: FreeInWV

Ukraine has around 45 Mi-24’s, but only around 10 were serviceable when this all began.

They have now lost three, and an MI-8.

How long until the flight officers refuse to fly without support, or they run out of choppers?


12 posted on 05/05/2014 4:57:28 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: FreeInWV

“the Odessa force, based on “civil activists”, would replace local police who had failed to tackle rebel actions “

Still following the Nazi template. Unreliable police will be replaced by putsch loyalists.


13 posted on 05/05/2014 5:22:46 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: FreeInWV

And they are resistant to .50 cal. But I wouldn’t call it “.50 cal proof”.

For example, a P-47 Thunderbolt would make quick work of one. As it flashes past, a few 50 cal hits might not bring it down. But in truth, everything that flies is vulnerable in some way to 50 cal.


14 posted on 05/05/2014 5:27:43 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DesertRhino

It just means that more rebels will spring up in the east, same goes with the mass defections of Ukrainian soldiers to the Rebels and to the Russian/Soviet army.


15 posted on 05/05/2014 5:36:10 PM PDT by Thunder90 (All posts soley represent my own opinion.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Nachoman

“Someone please break this down for me. Is the Ukrainian military pro-new government or pro-old government? Are the protesters Russian secessionists, pro-old government or pro-EU?”

Ukrainian military is disgruntled. In the west it begrudgingly supports the new Kiev leadership. In the east, not so much. The old government in Kiev was overthrown. Among other things, this was because the old government was pro-Russian and refused to sign a EU cooperation pact. Many speculate that the EU, our NGO’s & $5B foreign aid dollars and other opportunists supported ultranationalists to make the protests and Kiev take over happen. Anyway, the people in the other end of the country (the east), were always autonomous in the past. They can’t stand the new ultranational Kiev leadership which wants their autonomy forever gone. They see it as an illegal coup in a city in a faraway corner of the country. They also fear repression from the west. The ultranationalists have a hatred of the ethnic Russians in the east and vice versa.

Russia wants to protect the ethnic Russians from oppression and also wants to protect its borders, ports and influence that they had under the old Ukrainian government. The EU and the Ukrainians in the east fear that the Russians want to expand and take over the whole Ukraine and become a threat to Europe again.

It is essentially a federalist/nationalist crisis. Eastern wants to remain an autonomous part of Ukraine if possible. If not, they want to secede and join the Russian Federation. The US, EU and Ukrainians in the east want the whole country. A strong pro-EU national Ukrainian government regardless of what Ukrainians in the east want.

Most of the energy, natural resources and industry are in the east too. The west has little, is bankrupt and would be a burden to whoever has it. I doubt Russia even wants it. The EU doesn’t want the burden of it unless the east comes along too.

Plus, the USSR had genocides against the eastern Ukrainians (the Holomodor). The ultranationalists sided with Nazis against the USSR in WW2 and killed a lot of Russians when they were most vulnerable. The ultranationalists had a few genocides of their own too. So, there is a lot of distrust and hatred between the groups.

Confused yet?

Tony Soprano once said some wise words “Whatever you do, don’t f’k with the Ukrainians!”


16 posted on 05/05/2014 5:39:38 PM PDT by FreeInWV (Have you had enough change yet?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: FreeInWV

~It was reported that the one was downed by large caliber machine gun fire. Whatever that was, I want one!~

50 cal to a Hind is like a BB-gun to an elephant.
It has a good chance to get back home after MANPAD hit as well.
Antitank weapons are absolutely different thing but you have to be a total idiot to get hit by one in a helicopter.


17 posted on 05/05/2014 5:40:11 PM PDT by wetphoenix
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: FreeInWV
a MI-24 (HIND-D) helicopter was shot down. What purpose does such an aircraft have policing protestors??? I mean really! That is an armored heavy attach helicopter. -----------

FRiend, what type of ordnance would you suggest for engaging Chechen terrorists? A pop gun? Here's a pic from today. This is what "peaceful protestors" looks likes in Putin's fascist nightmare:

some_text

18 posted on 05/05/2014 5:42:27 PM PDT by lodi90
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DesertRhino

‘And they are resistant to .50 cal. But I wouldn’t call it “.50 cal proof”.’

Maybe not in real combat scenarios, but that is the way they designed it.

From Wikipedia:
“The Mi-24 fuselage body is heavily armored and can resist impacts from 12.7 mm (0.50 in) rounds from all angles. The titanium rotor blades are also resistant to 12.7 mm rounds. The cockpit is protected by ballistic-resistant windscreens and a titanium-armored tub.”


19 posted on 05/05/2014 5:44:28 PM PDT by FreeInWV (Have you had enough change yet?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: DesertRhino

Still following the Nazi template. Unreliable police will be replaced by putsch loyalists.


I hate to disappoint you but I can assure you Ukrainian patriots don’t care what names you call them from your armchair. They are busy taking out the trash. The latest piece being Checken terrorists exported from their good neighbors. Adios.


20 posted on 05/05/2014 5:45:12 PM PDT by lodi90
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: FreeInWV
The old government in Kiev was overthrown. Among other things, this was because the old government was pro-Russian and refused to sign a EU cooperation pact. Many speculate that the EU, our NGO’s & $5B foreign aid dollars and other opportunists supported ultranationalists to make the protests and Kiev take over happen. Anyway, the people in the other end of the country (the east), were always autonomous in the past. They can’t stand the new ultranational Kiev leadership which wants their autonomy forever gone. They see it as an illegal coup in a city in a faraway corner of the country. They also fear repression from the west. The ultranationalists have a hatred of the ethnic Russians in the east and vice versa.

Russia wants to protect the ethnic Russians from oppression and also wants to protect its borders, ports and influence that they had under the old Ukrainian government. The EU and the Ukrainians in the east fear that the Russians want to expand and take over the whole Ukraine and become a threat to Europe again.

It is essentially a federalist/nationalist crisis. Eastern wants to remain an autonomous part of Ukraine if possible. If not, they want to secede and join the Russian Federation. The US, EU and Ukrainians in the east want the whole country. A strong pro-EU national Ukrainian government regardless of what Ukrainians in the east want.

Most of the energy, natural resources and industry are in the east too. The west has little, is bankrupt and would be a burden to whoever has it. I doubt Russia even wants it. The EU doesn’t want the burden of it unless the east comes along too.

Excellent summary, FreeInWV. Brussels and Washington are trying to resurrect Cold War tensions to drum up support for a distant civil war that is none of our business. Ukraine is a basket case as a single entity, and will likely split between east and west at the Dnieper River. West Ukraine will naturally align with Poland, and East Ukraine with Russia. That looks like the most stable arrangement.

21 posted on 05/05/2014 6:41:12 PM PDT by Always A Marine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: lodi90

“Here’s a pic from today. This is what “peaceful protestors” looks likes in Putin’s fascist nightmare:”

Yes, the Ukrainian Airborne Brigade was very gracious about giving them all of their APC’s and equipment, which is wgere the one in your pic came from, doncha think??

Are you seriously that stupid?


22 posted on 05/05/2014 8:05:43 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Always A Marine

The pronouncements from Right-Sector/Svoboda about getting rid of Russian language and culture in Ukraine, right after the coup, didn’t help matters.


23 posted on 05/05/2014 8:07:59 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf; Always A Marine

Here is a little history on the OUN-B, predecessor of the current ultranational movement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

The following is from a really good writeup by the BBC at
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26415508

“When the president fled Kiev, the opposition moved in to fill the power vacuum. But earlier that week, in a bid to calm the crisis, both sides had agreed a deal to restore the 2004 constitution and reduce the president’s powers. That deal was signed by Mr Yanukovych and opposition leaders as well as by three EU foreign ministers ...

Moscow has regularly complained that the protests in Kiev’s Independence Square were hijacked by the far right, who have since gone on to take power in a new government that includes “undisguised Nazis”. Two groups, Right Sector and Svoboda (Freedom), are frequently mentioned and there are regular references to wartime nationalist Stepan Bandera, seen as a hero to some but accused by others of being a Nazi collaborator linked to massacres of Jews and Poles...

The far right was a minority element in the protests that attracted a wide cross-section of support from Kiev and other cities. They were, however, often involved in the most violent confrontations and nationalist symbols were frequently visible in the square...

The nationalist Svoboda (Freedom) party has four posts in the government. Oleksandr Sych is deputy prime minister and Oleh Makhnitsky becomes acting chief prosecutor. It also runs the agriculture and ecology portfolios but its leader, who has been accused of anti-Semitism, is not in the government...

Protest leader Andriy Parubiy has become chairman of the National Security Council (NSC). A co-founder of Svoboda and labelled an extremist by the ousted president, one of Mr Parubiy’s deputies at the NSC is Dmytro Yarosh, the head of far-right paramilitary group Right Sector.”

Its a mess for sure. Everyone’s hands are dirty and a lot of bad blood to go around.


24 posted on 05/06/2014 5:25:48 AM PDT by FreeInWV (Have you had enough change yet?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: FreeInWV

Thank you for your succinct and clear reply. ;^)


25 posted on 05/06/2014 2:20:54 PM PDT by Nachoman (Wisdom is learned, cynicism is earned.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson