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A Question for the Lawyers on FB about Elliot Rodgers
Self

Posted on 05/25/2014 11:43:31 AM PDT by 7thOF7th

Can anybody intelligently answer this questions about how a British national who has a history with psychological issues and has received counseling, can legally obtain three semiautomatic pistols in this state or country?


TOPICS: Chit/Chat
KEYWORDS: banglist; elliotrodger; elliotrodgers; santabarbarashooter

1 posted on 05/25/2014 11:43:31 AM PDT by 7thOF7th
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To: 7thOF7th

If people with the capability to make that happen wanted him to.


2 posted on 05/25/2014 11:47:07 AM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: 7thOF7th

Why shouldn’t he be able to obtain them unless he has been judged insane?


3 posted on 05/25/2014 11:49:47 AM PDT by yarddog (Romans 8: verses 38 and 39. "For I am persuaded".)
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To: 7thOF7th

Thank you for asking the question, I too have wondered the same thing. Hopefully someone with more knowledge than myself can answer.


4 posted on 05/25/2014 11:49:49 AM PDT by angelsonmyside
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To: 7thOF7th

See: The Second Amendment to the US Constitution


5 posted on 05/25/2014 11:50:12 AM PDT by Oliviaforever
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To: 7thOF7th

Pretty sure he was a naturalized citizen of the US and his psychological care was after the purchase of the handguns. The only way to have connected the two would have been to have a gun registry that would be checked each time someone enters psychological counseling, something I absolutely do not support.

Guns did not do the killing here, a psychopath mass murderer did it, and half of the deaths were done with knives.

But here’s a better question: How many of the last 12 mass murderers were under some form of recent psychological care? Isn’t it all of them? Seems the area that really needs to be examined is how we handle the insane, but that’s really tricky compared to blaming guns (or knives.)


6 posted on 05/25/2014 11:52:07 AM PDT by kingu (Everything starts with slashing the size and scope of the federal government.)
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To: 7thOF7th

LEGAL aliens have the same right to own guns as you and I.
HIPAA regulations keep all mental health info SECRET.


7 posted on 05/25/2014 11:52:35 AM PDT by 2harddrive
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To: 7thOF7th

This was a false flag op to gin up political support for gun confiscation and gun registration.

Elliot was a sleeper assassin.


8 posted on 05/25/2014 11:54:54 AM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: kingu

Are people with mental problems more likely to go on a rampage if they are under the care of a psychiatrist/psychologist? They need to do a study on that.


9 posted on 05/25/2014 11:55:57 AM PDT by TigersEye ("No man left behind" is more than an Army Ranger credo it's the character of America.)
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To: TigersEye

There are 317 million people in the US, yet a mere handful distiguish themselves as mass murderers. I could point out a large percentage of inner city yutes have a greater chance of becoming murderers.


10 posted on 05/25/2014 12:06:11 PM PDT by umgud
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To: umgud

Yes, and as was pointed out most of the mass murderers had been under the care of a psychiatrist or psychologist.


11 posted on 05/25/2014 12:10:33 PM PDT by TigersEye ("No man left behind" is more than an Army Ranger credo it's the character of America.)
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To: Oliviaforever

See: The Second Amendment to the US Constitution


Felons aren’t allowed to own guns.

Mentally ill people need restrictions too.


12 posted on 05/25/2014 12:10:58 PM PDT by boycott
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To: 7thOF7th

Am I the only one here that has his gaydar going off the map on this kid?


13 posted on 05/25/2014 12:14:51 PM PDT by Cyman (We have to pass it to see what's in it= definition of stool sample)
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To: Cyman

Saw a thread yesterday that indicated some have pegged him as a gay sociopath.


14 posted on 05/25/2014 12:17:08 PM PDT by Aria ( 2008 & 2012 weren't elections - they were coup d'etats.)
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To: Aria

I don’t think it was a coincidence that he stabbed three males to death. Stabbing almost always has a sexual connotation associated with it. Methinks the first three were his real targets.


15 posted on 05/25/2014 12:21:40 PM PDT by Cyman (We have to pass it to see what's in it= definition of stool sample)
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To: 7thOF7th

Having ‘psychological problems’ is not a legal deterrent to acquiring a legal gun.... hospitalization can be


16 posted on 05/25/2014 12:23:36 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: boycott

They have them if they have been hospitalized. Just because you see a doctor for help does not preclude.... nor should it


17 posted on 05/25/2014 12:24:44 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: umgud

“I could point out a large percentage of inner city yutes have a greater chance of becoming murderers.”

Good point. I’m sure there are many gang bangers out there who have killed at least as many people as this guy.

But you know, if a black guy kills somebody we’re supposed to ignore it, otherwise we are racists.

Think of the many, many innocent people killed by ghetto trash. OK, mostly ghetto trash kills other ghetto trash and I kind of get it that people don’t care.

But, not always. And nobody dare make a fuss about those non-trashy victims either, because, see above: racism.


18 posted on 05/25/2014 12:27:54 PM PDT by jocon307
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To: 7thOF7th

Mr Rodger’s son had been “diagnosed at an earlier age of being a highly functional Asperger Syndrome child”,
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-27562917

however,

“During the course of his interaction with mental health professionals, he apparently had never been either institutionalized or committed for an involuntarily hold of any kind. And those are the two triggers that actually would have made him a prohibited person in terms of a fire arms purchase.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/elliot-rodger-long-concealed-mental-health-issues-sheriff-says/

The blame lies not in guns, but with the parents in failing to recognize and address the severity of their child’s mental illness. In other words, his parents, who were well-aware of his behavior and who were made aware of his videos, rather than admit to themselves they had a spiraling out of control child, ignored the elephant in the room and tried to spoil their child into sanity, with predictably disasterous results.


19 posted on 05/25/2014 12:30:03 PM PDT by blueplum
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To: 7thOF7th
Bottom line: If someone wants to kill, he or she will find the means to do so. There are rocks, bats, andirons, kitchen knives, razor blades, hammers, and the list goes on and on. No, the answer lies with the attacker, his family, total absence of religious upbringing, and a society that fosters narcissistic lazy, spoiled kids with overinflated egos who are showered by their parents with material trappings and nothing to do but play video games that fuel their egos until they literally get bored to death.
20 posted on 05/25/2014 12:31:14 PM PDT by iontheball
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To: 7thOF7th
Can anybody intelligently answer this questions about how a British national who has a history with psychological issues and has received counseling, can legally obtain three semiautomatic pistols in this state or country?

No background check?

21 posted on 05/25/2014 12:36:07 PM PDT by PaulCruz2016
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To: 7thOF7th

Being a Democrat, it’s no problem (gun-free zones are only for the peasants).


22 posted on 05/25/2014 12:36:45 PM PDT by MuttTheHoople (Ob)
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To: 2harddrive
2harddrive:" HIPAA regulations keep all mental health info SECRET."

Not anymore !
Your health records are now available to IRS
In the State of Florida , your carry and conceal pistol permit is carried on your DMV information available to LEO.

23 posted on 05/25/2014 12:42:07 PM PDT by Tilted Irish Kilt (Political Correctness is Tyranny .. with manners ! Charlton Heston)
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To: PaulCruz2016

Every gun purchase requires a NICS background check. What do you think it would have found?


24 posted on 05/25/2014 12:53:53 PM PDT by TigersEye ("No man left behind" is more than an Army Ranger credo it's the character of America.)
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To: boycott

The problem is, who gets to decide if someone is mentally ill? Many libs consider ALL conservatives to be mentally ill. They believe wanting to own a firearm is a sign of mental illness. They certainly would consider anyone who posts on Free Republic (this includes you) to be mentally ill.

This is not paranoid thinking. Leftist statists have used the “mentally ill” tag on their opponents throughout the 20th and now first part of the 21st centuries. Stalin and Hitler (he was a national socialist, hence a leftis statist, not a conservative) are prime examples. As are some of the current “leaders” of the demscum party.

That is the problem...


25 posted on 05/25/2014 12:55:50 PM PDT by piytar (The predator-class is furious that their prey are shooting back.)
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To: TigersEye

That depends on the mental problem.
Are the effects of a toothache like the effects of a stroke?
There is a pretty wide range in mental health issues as to what the effects are, the duration, the cause, and the completeness of recovery.

PTSD (as an example) arises from unprocessed memory of a traumatic experience. Mild cases are completely recoverable, and relapses are unlikely.

Schizophrenia has a stress component and a genetic component. Treatment is often lifelong.

And those.just address completeness of recovery, not potential for violence.

The question as posed is so broad as to have no possible intellectual solution (other than to break it down. )


26 posted on 05/25/2014 1:09:55 PM PDT by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: MrEdd

Those are interesting thoughts but I don’t see any connection to the question I asked.


27 posted on 05/25/2014 1:14:18 PM PDT by TigersEye ("No man left behind" is more than an Army Ranger credo it's the character of America.)
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To: 7thOF7th

You don’t need permission in this country to own a gun. You only need money. The only people who seek government permission are law abiding citizens who have no intention of committing a criminal act.


28 posted on 05/25/2014 1:31:37 PM PDT by centurion316
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To: TigersEye

“Are people with mental problems more likely to go on a rampage if they are under the care of a psychiatrist/psychologist? They need to do a study on that.”

Shrink here: Studies of “the seriously mentally ill” - i.e. Schizophrenia and Bipolar Type I - show that they are no more likely than anyone else to become a danger to others . . . as long as . . . 1. They take their meds as prescribed, 2. They don’t use drugs or alcohol, and 3. They have no past history of violent behavior to others. That sub-set represents perhaps 10% of those living outside institutions . . . . It also cannot be extrapolated to other psych illnesses, such as this young man’s extreme narcissism.

To answer your question: No, I don’t think so. Most professionals do the best they can under the law to keep folks with mental illness from hurting themselves or others, but there’s really little they can do realistically in most cases in most jurisdictions. (The Tarasoff Ruling, BTW, put an unbelievable burden of protection on such professionals, a burden that is unprecedented in any other field, even law enforcement and the judicial system, as can be seen in this case and many others.)


29 posted on 05/25/2014 1:35:24 PM PDT by dagogo redux (A whiff of primitive spirits in the air, harbingers of an impending descent into the feral.)
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To: 7thOF7th
Unless a court has adjudicated a person to be mentally defective of the person has been committed to a mental hospital, the person is qualified to own guns. In fact, people who have mental problems often face a greater risk of being assaulted than normal people so they are in fact more in need of guns to protect themselves than so-called normal people.
30 posted on 05/25/2014 1:42:06 PM PDT by Tau Food (Never give a sword to a man who can't dance.)
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To: dagogo redux

I am sure that professionals do the best that they can. I see that you put several caveats in there. My question was not about the responsibilities of the professionals though it was simply about a statistical comparison of mass murderers who were under care vs. mass murderers who were not.


31 posted on 05/25/2014 1:45:10 PM PDT by TigersEye ("No man left behind" is more than an Army Ranger credo it's the character of America.)
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To: 2harddrive

“LEGAL aliens have the same right to own guns as you and I.
HIPAA regulations keep all mental health info SECRET.”

This is exactly correct. An legal alien with a green card, a residence address and a driver’s license can purchase and possess firearms, subject to the NICS background check.

Of course, prohibiting this narcissistic POS killer from having a firearm would not have saved his first three victims. There has got to be more to the story of how he killed three males with a knife, by the way.


32 posted on 05/25/2014 1:56:39 PM PDT by Cincinnatus.45-70 (What do DemocRats enjoy more than a truckload of dead babies? Unloading them with a pitchfork!)
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To: 7thOF7th
If you don't mind, let me ask a side question. Suppose that the kid was somehow judged too mentally ill to own a gun.

Would that also mean that he is too mentally ill to vote?

Just askin’.

33 posted on 05/25/2014 2:09:16 PM PDT by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: centurion316
You don’t need permission in this country to own a gun. You only need money

Yep. It's exactly like Prohibition in the 1920's. And if the lib's ever get their way and prohibit firearms, it will turn out exactly as the prohibition of alcohol turned out.

34 posted on 05/25/2014 2:11:53 PM PDT by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: kingu

“But here’s a better question: How many of the last 12 mass murderers were under some form of recent psychological care? Isn’t it all of them? Seems the area that really needs to be examined is how we handle the insane, but that’s really tricky compared to blaming guns (or knives.)”

Just had situation with my city’s police, a couple of weeks ago. I’m a board member for running our local AA meeting hall.

We had a mentally ill patron, who started damaging the building. We told him to leave, he would not, police called, etc.

The police were called back a few days later, when he came back, against our policy for six months suspension.

The police said they knew he was mentally ill, but had to wait until he did something violent to arrest and detain him.

The overall behavior and demeanor of the police, was totally CYA; fearful of lawsuits should anything go awry with the fellow.


35 posted on 05/25/2014 3:13:40 PM PDT by truth_seeker
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To: PieterCasparzen

Dude, this is FreeRepublic. Take your nutty BS over to the ‘Truther’ forums.

I’m sick of ‘false flaggots’.


36 posted on 05/25/2014 3:20:10 PM PDT by LittleBillyInfidel (This tagline has been formatted to fit the screen. Some content has been edited.)
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To: TigersEye

There are probably not enough mass murderers to run a statistically significant “large-N” study, especially after all the haggling that would take place about definitions (many types of mass murderers, you know) and exclusionary criteria. And then there is the usual need to run multiple independent studies before anything can be said with any certainty, and then a chorus of critics who will point to the need for prospective (rather than retrospective) double-blind studies that use sham/placebo therapy, in order to say anything with confidence about the preventive value of various treatments.

Hopefully, after a hundred years of ObamaCare and police-state totalitarianism, the NSA will have collected enough data on every citizen to be able to answer your question, though.


37 posted on 05/25/2014 3:51:13 PM PDT by dagogo redux (A whiff of primitive spirits in the air, harbingers of an impending descent into the feral.)
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To: dagogo redux

LOL Well, I hope the few thousand people left, living in wickiups, appreciate the results.


38 posted on 05/25/2014 4:06:30 PM PDT by TigersEye ("No man left behind" is more than an Army Ranger credo it's the character of America.)
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To: 7thOF7th

What kind of psychoactive drugs was he taking? Strange how Big Pharma never gets any blame.


39 posted on 05/25/2014 4:59:03 PM PDT by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
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To: Cincinnatus.45-70

Yes. Ignore the anti-NRA dad. He is simply out of his mind with grief.


40 posted on 05/25/2014 5:30:37 PM PDT by 2harddrive
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To: 2harddrive

Maybe. Or maybe he is just an irrational, leftist totalitarian.


41 posted on 05/25/2014 6:49:05 PM PDT by Cincinnatus.45-70 (What do DemocRats enjoy more than a truckload of dead babies? Unloading them with a pitchfork!)
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To: 7thOF7th

I have been had zero success trying to find the answer — the media seems curiously incurious.

Who effectively PAID FOR THE MURDER WEAPONS (knife, car, 3 handguns+ammo), by financing this layabout, without keeping him under control. Would that be his Daddy? Did Elliot buy the guns with cash? If on credit or debit cards, who paid the bills?


42 posted on 05/26/2014 10:39:48 AM PDT by Chewbarkah
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To: Chewbarkah

According to his lengthy autobiography/manifesto, he set aside money that his parents sent him until he had enough for the attack (~$5000).


43 posted on 05/27/2014 11:34:59 AM PDT by rebrane
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To: PieterCasparzen

The father sure came out of the gate, rather quick, with his NRA talk.


44 posted on 05/28/2014 10:11:21 AM PDT by riri (Plannedopolis-look it up. It's how the elites plan for US to live.)
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To: riri

Yes, it’s comically but painfully obvious.

No such parent in their right mind would immediately talk about a specific “issue group”.

Every one of these is so obviously orchestrated that the only folks who don’t see it are those who either prefer to stick their head in the sand or those who are part of the psyop campaign, even if only in a low-level useful idiot manner.

Those who honestly think that these events are not programmed just don’t know Statistics 101.

Stat was fascinating when I took it. What was really amazing was the complete inability of most students to come to terms with realities of probability - it was quite a mental struggle for most. That’s why so many people gamble.

When you have independent trials (events) and you want to calculate the probability of all the events going a given way, you mutiply all the individual probabilities. Since each probability is < 1 (since 1 = certainty) - multiplying several probabilities quickly yields rather infinitesimal probabilities of all the events coinciding, ergo, an “odd coincidence”.

With these types of events, there invariably is some kind of link or relationship with psychoactive drugs and the world of our “financial elites”, e.g., CIA, long-term treatment for psychological conditions, high finance, political elites, etc., which presents ample possibilities for the perpetrator to be a programmed killer, as their actual detailed life history is always very difficult to review with any reasonable degree of certainty.

I see with Elliot, google has been “stuffed” with his supposeed psychiatrist’s name, the fact that he’s a homosexual, he had an income tax problem and he’s a psychiatrist to the “stars”. It’s a wonderful diversion, and it seems impossible to get google to reveal anything about Elliot’s personal contacts and relationships with any other such professionals during his middle school and high school years. Thus it’s not going to be a quick web search to find out any possible “programmers” he may have had.

Much of the important information about “assassin” / “mass murder” cases is very thoroughly buried. For example, John Hinckley, the “attempted assassin” of Reagan - his father, John Hinckley, Sr., was longtime friends with George H.W. Bush; the two families were friends. But you have to search a little to find this out, and it’s always been under a virtual news blackout.

People just DO NOT WANT TO BELIEVE that there is a “big problem”.


45 posted on 05/28/2014 1:56:21 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: PieterCasparzen
Those who honestly think that these events are not programmed just don’t know Statistics 101.

Maybe there is just evil, and the nut did not fall far from the tree.
46 posted on 05/28/2014 2:38:14 PM PDT by PA Engineer (Liberate America from the Occupation Media.)
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To: PA Engineer

There’s no record of mass murders that fit the characteristics of those we see today happening at any time in history anywhere in the world.

We have this mysterious “deranged” mass murder - a crime that’s never happened in history, suddenly happening frequently.

Here’s an example listing of serial killers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serial_killers_before_1900

Note how they all have some ulterior criminal motive: sex, robbery, cannibalism, family/friend/business dispute, etc.

I’m not talking about tryants mass murdering people, human sacrifices, etc.

And I’m actually not talking about serial killers as shown above.

I’m saying a private citizen - who’s plumb crazy to the point where they can’t hold a steady job - deciding that they hate ___________ (some class of people, humanity, the gubmint, etc.), then proceeding to arm themselves to the teeth, go to the town square in broad daylight - and starting shooting random people.

And they do this so they obviously get caught, probably shot, or they kill themselves. And we find out that they are detached from reality after the fact.

And they were living with other people who supported them.

And they had to do a great deal of planning to arrange the mass murder.

And no one suspected ANYTHING prior to the day of the mass murder.

I find no record of that ever happening in recorded history up until the past few decades.


47 posted on 05/28/2014 10:49:54 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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