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.30 Carbine handguns
Daily Caller ^ | 04/23/2014 | By Mike “Duke” Venturino

Posted on 05/25/2014 5:07:20 PM PDT by kingattax

The .30 Carbine is one of those conundrum things. It’s in practical effect — if not in actual fact — a handgun cartridge, actually, a magnum length one. It has the same case length as the .357, .41 and .44 Magnums. But, it has no case rim which would make it work far better in revolvers than it actually does.

Yet it was definitely developed as a “short rifle” or carbine cartridge. Many people think with regards to its performance as a carbine round it was no great shakes. But there are mitigating circumstances regarding its military performance — namely full metal jacketed bullets.

Before World War II someone in the American military hierarchy studied Germany’s World War I wound reports and was amazed at how few were caused by .45 caliber projectiles fired from US Model 1911 semi-autos and US Model 1917 revolvers.

Therefore began a movement to develop a “short rifle” to replace handguns. Until well into World War II, say about 1943, US soldiers and Marines serving as members of crew served weapons teams, communication specialists, NCO’s and officers were issued handguns.

The idea was these men were not supposed to fight with small arms, but “just in case” needed a weapon to protect themselves


(Excerpt) Read more at dailycaller.com ...


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: banglist

1 posted on 05/25/2014 5:07:20 PM PDT by kingattax
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To: kingattax

I own an Automag III in .30 Carbine. It is a real hoot to shoot and always draws a crowd at the range. The muzzle blast is awesome!


2 posted on 05/25/2014 5:14:23 PM PDT by aomagrat (Gun owners who vote for democrats are too stupid to own guns.)
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To: kingattax

I have a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 carbine.It’s a decent handgun for woodchucks.


3 posted on 05/25/2014 5:17:28 PM PDT by Farmer Dean (stop worrying about what they want to do to you,start thinking about what you want to do to them)
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To: kingattax

I got a great buy on a new Ruger single action in .30 carbine around 1986 in Dodge City, KS. It was acceptable as far as accuracy and probably power were concerned but it had a terrible muzzle blast and was really loud.

I sold it to a fellow employee who actually liked it. Probably should have looked at reloads to tame that blast.

My Father who carried a Garand in WWII said everyone wanted a carbine but they were not allowed to have them.


4 posted on 05/25/2014 5:18:35 PM PDT by yarddog (Romans 8: verses 38 and 39. "For I am persuaded".)
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To: aomagrat

BUT: Excess muzzle blast = wasted muzzle energy, alas!


5 posted on 05/25/2014 5:32:47 PM PDT by 2harddrive
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To: kingattax

Dad has some sort of “rolling block” pistol that shoots .30 carbine. Not sure of the model or name though. It’s a single shot and the trigger guard is a lever that opens the breech.


6 posted on 05/25/2014 5:39:06 PM PDT by SkyDancer (I Believe In The Law Until It Intereferes With Justice. And Pay Your Liberty Tax Citizen.)
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To: SkyDancer
Sounds like a Thompson Contender IIRC.

Pretty cool pistol with interchangeable barrels for lots of cartridge sizes. Some crazy guys shoot .30-30 and such from them I am told.

7 posted on 05/25/2014 5:54:48 PM PDT by doorgunner69
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To: kingattax

The concepts of “rifle cartridge” and “pistol cartridge” have never been static, not even in terms of velocity, bullet mass, and kinetic energy. When the US 30 Carbine cartridge was introduced in 1941, the king of the hill was the 357 Magnum, for which only a few thousand handguns - all revolvers - had been chambered. And the 30 Carbine still produced more than 10 percent more kinetic energy.

Today, factory cartridges like the 454 Casull and 500 S&W produce as much energy as a 30-30; the 460 S&W equals the 308 Winchester.

The military still defines the max effective range of a handgun as 65 ft. Cavalry charges went by the board no later than 1914, and the type of hand-to-hand combat where a handgun might be useful rare. Far better, went military thinking, to equip troops whose job was not front-line infantry assault (some 80 percent of all in uniform, during the Second World War) with an arm of greater effective range than a handgun, but lighter and less powerful than the rifle issued to footsoldiers. Thus the personal defense weapon (PDW) was created.

The handgun’s limited effective range (range within which probability of hit 50 percent is or greater) is due almost entirely to human factors, s it was instantly apparent that the PDW had to take the form of a shoulder arm: a rifle firing a cartridge of less weight and power than the standard rifle round.

Armsmakers had for generations prior to WWII been developing composite small arms, where a shoulder stock was attached to a handgun. Samuel Colt made and sold attachable stocks for his military revolvers in the 1850s. The first semiauto pistols, hitting the market in the 1890s, were equipped with stocks and touted as ultra-long-range guns. The Borchardt pistol and its better-engineered variant, the widely known “Luger,” both had stocks. Mauser’s C96 “Broomhandle” was given a stock that was hollowed out to do double duty as a holster, and given sights graduated to over 800 meters. FN’s P35, better know today as the “High Power”, was produced in a shoulder-stock version and equipped with long range sights.

When the US War Dept Ordnance Corps made public its first request for proposal for a PDW, several US Gunmakers responded with handgun variants. Colt’s put together a Government Model variant with a long barrel, extended magazine, and an attached stock.

Attempts to modify existing weapons came to naught because the Ordnance Corps insisted on simplicity of maintenance and ease of manufacturing (good ideas, as it turned out). All the handgun adaptations lost out because all were based on designs and production technology of at least two generations earlier, results were costly, slow and tougher to fix.

Some have claimed the the US 30 Carbine was an assault rifle, but that is not the case. Every time it was pressed into such a role results were pretty poor. Cartridge historians have noted that its max pressure standard is remarkably mild; if the upper limit had been permitted to equal typical rifle rounds of the 1920s, kinetic energy would have been much higher and our respect for it that much greater (see the reference book _Cartridges of the World_).

The life of the 30 Carbine Cartridge in the civilian world has been lackluster at best; the sole justification for the round in non-military use was the availability of inexpensive surplus ammunition, which ceased to be a factor decades ago.

Some users hoped a gunmaker would produce a companion handgun to fire the same ammunition as the military surplus rifles, or commercial offshoots, but results have been very spotty. It is possible to develop accurate loads for Ruger’s 30 Carbine Blackhawk, but results when they are fired in an actual Carbine are not very encouraging. And if one loads MIL STD rounds into a Blackhawk, the bullets won’t slip forward because they are cemented in, but the accuracy is terrible, and blast & flash are frightening.

AMT did produce some innovative guns, but hardly any of them were reliable or durable. Their 30 Carbine autoloader was a perfect example.

Marlin did offer its Model 62 lever action rifle in 30 Carbine and some other centerfire calibers (256 Win was one), but the production run was short, and it cannot be considered anything more than a collector’s item today. Some specialized single-shot rifles and the swap barrel for Thompson-Center’s Contender pistol just about complete the rest of the story.


8 posted on 05/25/2014 6:08:35 PM PDT by schurmann
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To: doorgunner69

Got an email back from dad. He says it’s a Remington Rolling Block.


9 posted on 05/25/2014 6:26:46 PM PDT by SkyDancer (I Believe In The Law Until It Intereferes With Justice. And Pay Your Liberty Tax Citizen.)
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To: yarddog

Friend had one and it was louder than my 44 mag!

With “rifle” ammo 30 cals, a great amount of the powder burns out in front of the pistol.

Don’t see any positives with this combo.


10 posted on 05/25/2014 6:29:25 PM PDT by X-spurt (CRUZ missile - armed and ready.)
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To: doorgunner69

I had one of the T/C Contenders in 7x30 Waters- basically a 30-30 case necked down to a 7mm bullet. It was accurate, but I had to sell it to buy my 1911A1. I will say that the chamber on that gun was so tight, the fired brass really didn’t need resizing at all to reload it. The case neck didn’t have any room to expand at all. I would love to have another Contender, but it’s got a few other things ahead of it on my list.


11 posted on 05/25/2014 6:31:38 PM PDT by matthew fuller (No, I don't miss GWB- I miss Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld.)
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To: matthew fuller

Never shot a .30 Carbine pistol. Don’t like “barkers” particularly. The .22 Mag is one, the venerable .32-20 is another, and the .357 Sig is loud, although it isn’t much hotter than the .38 Super, which is a great round.


12 posted on 05/25/2014 6:43:01 PM PDT by Tijeras_Slim
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To: kingattax

Carbine ping.


13 posted on 05/25/2014 6:45:40 PM PDT by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: schurmann

Did you write this post?


14 posted on 05/25/2014 6:51:24 PM PDT by caver (Obama: Home of the Whopper)
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To: doorgunner69

I’ve heard that TC barrels are available in .45-70 caliber.Fire a few rounds then consult an orthopedic surgeon to repair the damage!


15 posted on 05/25/2014 6:57:23 PM PDT by Farmer Dean (stop worrying about what they want to do to you,start thinking about what you want to do to them)
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To: yarddog
It was acceptable as far as accuracy and probably power were concerned but it had a terrible muzzle blast and was really loud.

I'm going to guess that was because the cartridges used rifle powder, and thus needed a longer barrel to completely burn. Reloading and working out a suitable loading using pistol powder might have tamed the beast.

16 posted on 05/25/2014 7:01:57 PM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: Farmer Dean
I’ve heard that TC barrels are available in .45-70 caliber.

Think I would be better off slamming a car door on my hand a few times rather than touching off many rounds of .45-70 from a pistol.

17 posted on 05/25/2014 7:09:29 PM PDT by doorgunner69
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To: SkyDancer

I doubt there have been any Remington Rolling Blocks made in about a hundred years. It is possible that yous is a reproduction or more likely someone put a new barrel on it.

It would have probably required some action work in addition to being chambered for the little carbine round. The rolling block was chambered for the fairly high pressure 7mm mauser which is rimless so it clearly could have been done.


18 posted on 05/25/2014 7:13:30 PM PDT by yarddog (Romans 8: verses 38 and 39. "For I am persuaded".)
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To: kingattax

“The idea was these men were not supposed to fight with small arms, but “just in case” needed a weapon to protect themselves “

Why would you give a guy a crap gun for “emergencies” when, in an emergency, he would desperately need it to work right ?


19 posted on 05/25/2014 7:16:20 PM PDT by PLMerite (Shut the Beyotch Down! Burn, baby, burn!)
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To: schurmann

Interesting history.
Thanks.


20 posted on 05/25/2014 7:19:53 PM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks (Rip it out by the roots.)
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To: PLMerite

The .30 carbine was a good gun in almost every respect. The only weakness was the cartridge lacked power but it actually had as much energy as the .44 magnum.

The problem was the light fmj bullets did not expand or even tumble.


21 posted on 05/25/2014 7:24:30 PM PDT by yarddog (Romans 8: verses 38 and 39. "For I am persuaded".)
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To: kingattax

Hmmmmm.....been reloading a long time....never seen a .30 Carbine, .357, .41 Mag, or .44 mag that were the same case length....somebody sold me an inaccurate caliber....God Damn them to Hell!!


22 posted on 05/25/2014 7:49:18 PM PDT by docman57 (Retired but still on Duty)
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To: yarddog

I have a WWII .30 M1 Carbine made by Saginaw Steering Gear
Division of General Motors. It is a hoot to fire, and, is
dead-on accurate out to 200 yards. I also have the same
soldiers 1911 A1 .45 cal. side arm, plus his 1903 Springfield
30-06 bolt-action rifle manufactured in 1936.
Both are treasures to me. The .45 was made by Ithaca Arms in 1942.


23 posted on 05/25/2014 7:55:41 PM PDT by gigster (Cogito, Ergo, Ronaldus Magnus Conservatus)
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To: kingattax
Thanks KT....like others we noticed the muzzle blast while shooting a Ruger at sunset - oh my goodness - It was nearly two feet of fire coming out of the barrel,,,if the target was close you did not need the bullet !!!
24 posted on 05/25/2014 7:58:19 PM PDT by virgil283 (That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.)
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To: gigster

You have some real treasures, especially with the provenance.


25 posted on 05/25/2014 8:02:25 PM PDT by yarddog (Romans 8: verses 38 and 39. "For I am persuaded".)
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To: Tijeras_Slim
The M1 Carbine, was in may ways, the premier PDW of it's day. Not only was it highly regarded in WWII, Korea and Viet Nam (particularly with smaller statured indigenous forces) it was very popular with the FFL in Indochina and North Africa and the Israelis have always loved the thing. The Israelis have even played around with .30 carbine bull pups for their police and some special ops units which use stock M1 carbine mags...

Personally, while I do like the .30 carbine round, I'd like to see something along the lines of the original M1A1 chambered in 10mm.

26 posted on 05/25/2014 8:06:06 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Qui me amat, amat et canem meum.)
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To: kingattax
I carried an M2 carbine in an M1A1 collapsible stock in Vietnam only because of it's compactness. I was quite familiar with it's capabilities and shortcomings because of much Jackrabbit hunting with my DCM M1 Carbine in the early 1960's.

The only positive thing I can say about the gun and cartridge is that it held more cartridges. had more velocity with a better trajectory than any .22 LR rimfire gun at that time.

It served its original, intended purpose very well. Any center fire carbine or rifle is better suited to combat than any pistol.

Period. To me, the M1 Carbine has many of the same characteristics and deficits as the Marlin Camp Carbine chambered for the 9mm Luger chambering. Both are a lot of fun to shoot but greatly deficient for any serious work.

It has never been a good idea to chamber rifles with pistol cartridges or pistols with rifle cartridges.

27 posted on 05/25/2014 8:39:08 PM PDT by Buffalo Head (Illigitimi non carborundum)
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To: Farmer Dean

Me too. Real fun to shoot and accurate. Makes a good combo with the carbine.


28 posted on 05/25/2014 8:48:05 PM PDT by redhawk.44mag (The problem with the world today, is that it wants to be digital, but it's really analog)
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To: yarddog

Try to use the fastest powder you can and it will help the muzzle blast.


29 posted on 05/25/2014 8:50:00 PM PDT by redhawk.44mag (The problem with the world today, is that it wants to be digital, but it's really analog)
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To: PLMerite

I’ve heard stories of the .30 carbine not even penetrating the winter clothing of Chinese troops at normal combat ranges.Why would the Ordinace Dept of the Army allow such a weapon to be issued?


30 posted on 05/25/2014 8:53:47 PM PDT by Farmer Dean (stop worrying about what they want to do to you,start thinking about what you want to do to them)
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To: Farmer Dean

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPg30GURudY


31 posted on 05/25/2014 8:58:03 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Qui me amat, amat et canem meum.)
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To: Joe 6-pack
Apparently the Israelis wasted a lot of time and money trying to develop a weapon using a cartridge that has been discredited in real combat.
32 posted on 05/25/2014 9:02:46 PM PDT by Farmer Dean (stop worrying about what they want to do to you,start thinking about what you want to do to them)
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To: yarddog

I doubt there have been any Remington Rolling Blocks made in about a hundred years. It is possible that yous is a reproduction or more likely someone put a new barrel on it.

Pedersoli makes reproductions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vEAwIIUXvs


33 posted on 05/26/2014 3:23:56 AM PDT by marktwain (The old media must die for the Republic to live. Long live the new media!)
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To: Farmer Dean

Well I was going to go back to the top but I’ll just start right here. I’ve got 3 Blackhawks chambered in 30 cal, two 3 screws and a new model. The old 3 screw rides the ranch with me daily and has taken it’s fair share of coyotes and feral hog’s out past 100 yards using the truck door as a rest. I think I can honestly say I’ve owned one ever since they made. Tried an AMT back in the early 90 and junked it, too heavy and two unreliable. The only misfires I’ve had was due to old military ball ammo but I never had an ejection problem like the author of the story suggested, I suspect that’s the ejector rod bending due to contact with the bullet instead of the base of the case. Over the years I’ve developed some interesting hand loads for this round that have proven quite effective. One is a 125 grain load with a flat nose hollow point designed for the 30-30 all the way down to a 85 grain bullet. With proper powders they give impressive results especially the 85 grain bullets where I’m getting almost 2000 fps from a 7 1/2 inch barrel and that load is my standard carry load.

My buddy in Dallas is building a few suppressed 30 Carbines and is have good success with them when we keep the bullet weight up and the velocity down. He’s in the process of designing a better barrel system with a fast twist for the heavier loads. We took a couple on a night time feral hog hunt and I must say I was impressed 50 to 60 yard head shots were a piece of cake and rolled them where they stood.

My loads now don’t have the extreme flash of the Ball Ammo but I run a few through every now and then just for visual effects. Always wear hearing protection.


34 posted on 05/26/2014 3:34:55 AM PDT by Dusty Road
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To: Farmer Dean

Friend had a 45-70 revolver. He fired it 12 times with gloves, then set it aside as a safe queen curio. He said the pain was not worth trying to impress people.


35 posted on 05/26/2014 5:09:28 AM PDT by Boomer One
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To: Dusty Road

Have you tried the V-max 110 grain?


36 posted on 05/26/2014 5:33:25 AM PDT by Farmer Dean (stop worrying about what they want to do to you,start thinking about what you want to do to them)
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To: Farmer Dean

I’m really limited by bullet length and magazine length but we’re working on swaging bullets and giving them a different profile to work with the shorter case and velocities. I’m working on a subsonic 165 grain from a full length 30 Carbine barrel but we have to change the twist.


37 posted on 05/26/2014 6:42:55 AM PDT by Dusty Road
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