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Little know (or hidden) facts about r410-a, the environmentalist freon
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Posted on 05/29/2014 5:54:09 AM PDT by George from New England

Just encountered this the other day.

The freon that we are all being forced to use as they deny us r22, is a disaster. My 1 1/2 ton central system holds 13 lbs of this freon. It was low by only 1/2 a lb. It's cooling capacity was off 80%. It's electrical consumption was still 100% if not higher than when it is fully charged. But to have the 5% reduction in coolant result and so much energy waste and non-cooling is a flaw and should be a crime -- nobody's talking about it. The hvac tech also could not find a leak after using a sniffer tool. He says there are characteristics about this 410 freon that will cause this degradation over time without any leaks at all. It was last checked by his firm 2 years ago. He is now saying the industry is pushing for 'freon checkups' every six months with r410-a. What the hell are we are heading for ???


TOPICS: Chit/Chat; Science
KEYWORDS: environuts; freon; r22; r410a

1 posted on 05/29/2014 5:54:10 AM PDT by George from New England
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To: George from New England

Check out a GSHP.


2 posted on 05/29/2014 5:57:10 AM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks (Rip it out by the roots.)
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To: George from New England

Years ago I read that the push to replace R22 was by Dupont because their patent was expiring.


3 posted on 05/29/2014 5:59:38 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Haven't you lost enough freedoms? Support an end to the WOD now.)
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To: Blood of Tyrants

Neat coincidence.


4 posted on 05/29/2014 6:02:44 AM PDT by Raycpa
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To: Eric in the Ozarks

A GSHP still uses a refrigerant. Coolant is the issue here.

r410 is double the pressure so leaks are more frequent than with r22 systems. It seems the environuts are ok with r410 escaping to the atmosphere cause to them its safer than r22 escaping. I read that the escape concerns from r22 were about chlorine leaking out. What a joke.

In the end the cost of running and maintaining r410 system are higher and the gear starts being troublesome much sooner.

I have 4 systems, three are r22 and they are all older then my one r410 system. The r22 have never leaked or needed coolant added.


5 posted on 05/29/2014 6:05:39 AM PDT by George from New England (escaped CT in 2006, now living north of Tampa)
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To: George from New England
To paraphrase the Turkish (Klingon?) proverb,

"A thousand EPA employees' throats may be cut in one night, by a running man."

6 posted on 05/29/2014 6:21:00 AM PDT by Charles Martel (Endeavor to persevere...)
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To: George from New England

And of course, these periodic checkups are not free, but substantially raise the operating costs that the EPA did not care to figure in when they required the manufacturer to calculate costs for purposes of that informative performance notice they must attach to every unit.

Moreover, there is no accounting in this for the environmental burden of having a service technician drive his truck to every customer’s house twice a year for this. Over the life-cycle of the equipment all these issue add up in oh so many ways.

Yet another way the enviro-libs are saving the planet using bureaucrats with guns.


7 posted on 05/29/2014 6:31:52 AM PDT by theBuckwheat
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To: George from New England

Freon was the best coolant for this purpose ever invented.

But the company patents were going to run out, and it was worth $trillions

So... with the aid of enviro-weenies they get their own product banned, and introduce a new product that is many times worse

And discover the power of enviro-weenies in controlling the government


8 posted on 05/29/2014 6:34:47 AM PDT by Mr. K (If you like your constitution, you can keep it...Period. PALIN/CRUZ 2016)
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To: Blood of Tyrants
Years ago I read that the push to replace R22 was by Dupont because their patent was expiring.

You were correct.

9 posted on 05/29/2014 6:45:54 AM PDT by Don Corleone ("Oil the gun..eat the cannoli. Take it to the Mattress.")
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To: George from New England
Our GS unit has about four pounds of r22. I hope we never lose any of this stuff because it would be impossible to simply switch to the 410. It would require a complete new system with new compressor, etc.
10 posted on 05/29/2014 6:46:24 AM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks (Rip it out by the roots.)
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To: George from New England
The government doesn't have to eat its own cooking.

But you and I do.

11 posted on 05/29/2014 6:48:41 AM PDT by kiryandil (turning Americans into felons, one obnoxious drunk at a time (Zero Tolerance!!!))
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To: theBuckwheat

13 lbs seems like too large a quantity for 1 1/2 ton unit. I think a 3 ton sys only uses 7.5 lbs.


12 posted on 05/29/2014 6:53:25 AM PDT by DocJhn
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To: George from New England

Looks like same issues as when we used R-12 for automotive stuff. They said it was dangerous,yada,yada,yada. Best refrigerant ever for automotive & the idiots made it so expensive it was not profitable to use anymore. Same anthropogenic “climate change” bunch causing this,I’m sure. They seem to manage to screw up everything.


13 posted on 05/29/2014 6:57:56 AM PDT by oldtech
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To: Eric in the Ozarks
I suggest you scour craigslist etc and lay some stock of r-22 in.
14 posted on 05/29/2014 6:58:18 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: mad_as_he$$

Good idea.


15 posted on 05/29/2014 7:04:04 AM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks (Rip it out by the roots.)
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To: George from New England

r410-a is known to damage the seals and create leaks.

The entire freon/ozone layer issue is a hoax.


16 posted on 05/29/2014 7:25:17 AM PDT by G Larry (Which of Obama's policies do you think I'd support if he were white?)
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To: Blood of Tyrants

I read an article a few years ago that said there was an error in the calculation on the environmental effects study of r-22. That error resulted in R-22 appearing 10 times worse for the environment that it actually is.


17 posted on 05/29/2014 7:29:16 AM PDT by jaydubya2
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To: mad_as_he$$

It like R12 is likely still available south of the border.


18 posted on 05/29/2014 7:36:27 AM PDT by X-spurt (CRUZ missile - armed and ready.)
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To: All

R-12, R-22, DDT, et.al. will come back years from now when/if sanity has returned.


19 posted on 05/29/2014 7:39:16 AM PDT by TangoLimaSierra (To win the country back, we need to be as mean as the libs say we are.)
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To: Blood of Tyrants
Years ago I read that the push to replace R22 was by Dupont because their patent was expiring.

R-12 for cars was replaced by R-134a, and that was the rumor 20 years ago, back in the early 1990s. I worked at Autozone at the time, and the switchover meant that one day we could sell Average Joe a can of R-12, and the next we could not. We could still sell it, but only to licensed A/C techs/shops. The only thing we could sell to everyone was R-134a.

Not sure about the R-22 issue with respect to household systems. Probably the same deal.

20 posted on 05/29/2014 7:41:21 AM PDT by IYAS9YAS (Has anyone seen my tagline? It was here yesterday. I seem to have misplaced it.)
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To: Mr. K

I call environmentalists ‘watermelons’:

Green on the outside, red on the inside.


21 posted on 05/29/2014 7:47:43 AM PDT by RinaseaofDs (.)
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To: X-spurt

If it is really that. Most of the SOB stuff is canned propane.


22 posted on 05/29/2014 8:49:13 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: mad_as_he$$

I’ve seen “R-12” replacements that are mostly hydrocarbons/propane ... but I’ve heard that the real R-12 (and surely real DDT) are for sale in Mexico ...


23 posted on 05/29/2014 1:38:25 PM PDT by Neidermeyer
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Had ENOUGH Yet ?


24 posted on 05/29/2014 9:59:58 PM PDT by S.O.S121.500 (Had ENOUGH Yet ? ........................ Enforce the Bill of Rights ......... It's the LAW !!!)
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To: S.O.S121.500
http://techtips.remichel.com/ShowServiceTip.asp?ServiceItemID=85 Sounds pretty gloomy for our future ... Should R-410A Systems Be �Topped Off� Upon Discovery of a Leak? We need to understand that R-410A is a binary near azeotropic mixture and has potential for fractionation. Research has determined that fractionation will only occur at points in the refrigeration system where the mixture is in partially saturated state. The polyolester lubricant (POE) for used with R-410A is extremely hydroscopic, much more so than mineral oil, or alkylbenzene. Knowing the above, service practices would lead one to simply �pump down� a system, or recover the refrigerant for recharge, where a leak is determined not to be in a part of the system that fractionation would occur. This due to the assumption that the remaining mixture has suffered minimal, to no fractionation. However, it has been my experience that the location of a leak lures even an experienced serviceman into assuming that they have found the problem. Service personnel proceed to determine whether the location is in an area that fractionation would occur, and if not, proceed to �pump down�, or recover for reuse, leak repair, evacuate, and recharge. If this is the only leak, the problem may be solved. But, was the leak in an area that is not subject to fractionation during operation, and is subject for a time during shut down? Was the discovered leak the only leak? Systems extremely low on charge will cause non-condensables to be drawn into the system with catastrophic failure consequences. Even opening the system to repair a leak allows moisture to enter the system and be absorbed by the POE lubricant. This moisture cannot be removed during normal evacuation, even at 500 micron levels. The proper method for moisture removal is thru the use of driers. Normal service practice on any system, not excluding R-410A, is to replace the drier any time a system is opened. Since the OEM drier is normally in the outdoor section, it cannot be replaced unless the outdoor section is opened. Unless service personnel can determine a leak has not caused fractionation to a point that it will affect system operation, I would always recommend system refrigerant recovery, OEM drier replacement, evacuation and recharge with virgin refrigerant.
25 posted on 06/02/2014 7:52:47 AM PDT by George from New England (escaped CT in 2006, now living north of Tampa)
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