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Did Angkor really see a dinosaur?
Creation Ministries International ^ | 6-23-14 | Jonathan O’Brien and Shaun Doyle

Posted on 06/23/2014 9:24:28 AM PDT by fishtank

Did Angkor really see a dinosaur?

Jonathan O’Brien and Shaun Doyle

The September 2007 Creation magazine back page feature article ‘Angkor saw a Stegosaur?’ showed a stone carving on a temple of Angkor, Cambodia, (a. 1200 AD), depicting what looks like an artistic impression of a stegosaurian-type dinosaur.1 As such evidence clearly supports the biblical view of dinosaurs, it naturally provoked the ire of vocal atheists. Here are their objections:

“If it is a dinosaur, they carved it from fossils”

The plates along the back of the animal are unlike all the other decorative designs in the temple walls. One objection is that the temple carvers may have carved the stegosaur from nearby fossils. However, it takes a lot of training and skill to accurately reconstruct from fossils what a dinosaur looked like.2 There is no evidence that such was available in Cambodian culture of the time. As one dinosaur researcher has noted, if there are reasonably accurate dinosaur depictions that pre-date modern advances in the science of fossil reconstruction, “then a tremendously powerful case can be made that dinosaurs were being depicted not from the bones, but from real-life encounters.”3

Moreover, no stegosaurian fossils have ever been reported in Cambodia. Therefore fossils are unlikely to have been the basis for the carving on the temple.

(Excerpt) Read more at creation.com ...


TOPICS: Arts/Photography; History; Religion; Science
KEYWORDS: angkor; creation; dinosaur
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CMI article image.

Angkor-stegosaur-carving

Close-up of the ‘Angkor stegosaur’ carving. The trademark scales on the back have made it so easily recognizable that CMI speakers have never received another suggestion for what this animal could be other than a stegosaur.

1 posted on 06/23/2014 9:24:28 AM PDT by fishtank
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To: All

From the website:

“”A reader’s comment

Patrick G., United States, 23 June 2014

Evolutionists have often strongly criticized creationists suggesting this artwork to be a stegosaurus. The problem is that one of the first people to suggest this in print wasn’t a creationist at all.

A photograph of this particular sculpture is found in the book “Angkor Cities and Temples” on page 215. The corresponding description of it is found on page 213:

“Roundels on pilasters on the south side of the west entrance are unusual in design. In particular, that at left shows an animal which bears striking resemblance to a stegosaurus.”

The man who described it in this manner was Claude Jacques, a long standing member of the Ecole Francaise d’ Extreme Orient. He lived in Cambodia for nine years where he taught Khmer history at the Archaeology Department of Phnom Penh. By reading his other comments throughout the book, it is obvious he was an old earth evolutionist. His credentials and time in the region should make him an expert in anyone’s mind. Yet he still saw this artwork as resembling the extinct dinosaur more than any other animal found in this area.

Anyone who wants criticize this carving being interpreted as a stegosaurus should start by criticizing this man first.””


2 posted on 06/23/2014 9:24:57 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: All

CMI article caption.

The context of the ‘Angkor stegosaur’ shows that it is pictured with numerous animals known to the locals, such as a water buffalo (above the stegosaur).

3 posted on 06/23/2014 9:25:57 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: fishtank

“Time travelers”...

has to be.

People from the future time traveled back to Angkor, drew a picture of a stegosaurus for the stone artist, then went back to the future.

This is far more plausible than the idea that the stegosaurus was a contemporary of humans...

(/sarc)


4 posted on 06/23/2014 9:27:24 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: fishtank

[ The plates along the back of the animal are unlike all the other decorative designs in the temple walls. One objection is that the temple carvers may have carved the stegosaur from nearby fossils. However, it takes a lot of training and skill to accurately reconstruct from fossils what a dinosaur looked like. ]

I disagree, any culture that deals with people who are butchers and hunter will have a decent idea of what an animal once looked like based off it’s bones.


5 posted on 06/23/2014 9:28:13 AM PDT by GraceG
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To: MrB

Clearly this sculptor had once visited Kong Island.


6 posted on 06/23/2014 9:31:27 AM PDT by Argus
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To: fishtank

Clearly Godzilla.

Note that Angkor is largely ruins, supporting the Godzilla theory.


7 posted on 06/23/2014 9:32:11 AM PDT by humblegunner
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To: fishtank

It’s not a Stegosaurus.

There is no Thangomizer attached to the tail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thagomizer


8 posted on 06/23/2014 9:36:59 AM PDT by Conan the Librarian (The Best in Life is to crush my enemies, see them driven before me, and the Dewey Decimal System)
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To: fishtank

Are there any other artifacts from the same region and period that depict the other animals? Why only that one, and why only a stegosaurus?


9 posted on 06/23/2014 9:39:02 AM PDT by tacticalogic
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To: fishtank

What’s the animal at the very base of that column?


10 posted on 06/23/2014 9:41:40 AM PDT by Natufian (t)
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To: fishtank

I don’t know exactly what it means but I have noticed that dragons are pretty much the same in all ancient peoples.

They also look suspiciously like some dinosaurs.


11 posted on 06/23/2014 9:43:01 AM PDT by yarddog (Romans 8: verses 38 and 39. "For I am persuaded".)
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To: fishtank

I’ve read that some of the Mayan designs look like elephants,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Maizeresearcher/The_Idea_of_the_Elephant_in_Cultures_of_Pre-15th_Century_Americas

And Earl Stanley Gardener, writing about Mexico, said there was a man who bought hundreds of statues of dinosaurs, found in the area.

http://forbiddenarchaeology.blogspot.com/2012/11/acambaro-figurines-from-waldemar.html

http://www.fairservicenz.com/dinosaur/dinosaur-5.html

Scroll down to photos.


12 posted on 06/23/2014 9:43:58 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Sometimes you need more than seven rounds, Much more.)
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To: Conan the Librarian
It’s not a Stegosaurus. There is no Thangomizer attached to the tail.

ROTFL!


13 posted on 06/23/2014 9:46:06 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: fishtank
Close-up of the ‘Angkor stegosaur’ carving. The trademark scales on the back have made it so easily recognizable that CMI speakers have never received another suggestion for what this animal could be other than a stegosaur.

Maybe it's a curelom?

14 posted on 06/23/2014 9:50:09 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Alex Murphy

I so miss the Far Side cartoons.


15 posted on 06/23/2014 10:03:32 AM PDT by aimhigh (1 John 3:23)
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To: aimhigh; Conan the Librarian; Alex Murphy

In Cambodia? It was seared - seared! - into Angkor’s memory. Christmas 1968, I think it was! Nixon was president, even though he wasn’t inaugurated yet.


16 posted on 06/23/2014 10:07:25 AM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: fishtank
The September 2007 Creation magazine back page feature article ‘Angkor saw a Stegosaur?’ showed a stone carving on a temple of Angkor, Cambodia, (a. 1200 AD), depicting what looks like an artistic impression of a stegosaurian-type dinosaur.1 As such evidence clearly supports the biblical view of dinosaurs

I don't get that. How does that "clearly support the Biblical view of dinosaurs"? That's a 3200 year old carving. Creationist dogma says all of the dinosaurs were wiped out in the Great Flood 800 years before this carving was made.

17 posted on 06/23/2014 10:10:00 AM PDT by tacticalogic
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To: fishtank

Sorry, I misread that. This is an 800 year old carving, made 3200 years after the dinosaurs were supposed to have been wiped on in the Great Flood. That’s not anywhere near lining up with the Creationist timeline.


18 posted on 06/23/2014 10:23:25 AM PDT by tacticalogic
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To: tacticalogic

There is a group of creationist who believe there is a possiblity of present day dinosaurs and travel all around the Congo Basin looking for ‘them’.


19 posted on 06/23/2014 10:24:36 AM PDT by Theoria (End Socialism : No more GOP and Dem candidates)
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To: fishtank

So, Garudas really existed along with Dino's?

20 posted on 06/23/2014 10:28:33 AM PDT by JimSEA
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To: humblegunner

Huh what !!!


21 posted on 06/23/2014 10:42:35 AM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: Conan the Librarian

The explanation is funny:

“The arrangement of spikes originally had no distinct name; the term Thagomizer was coined in 1982 by cartoonist Gary Larson in his The Far Side comic strip, and thereafter became gradually adopted as an informal term within scientific circles, research, and education.”


22 posted on 06/23/2014 10:45:17 AM PDT by Disambiguator (#cornedbeef)
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To: Godzilla

Go, go.. Godzilla.


23 posted on 06/23/2014 10:53:47 AM PDT by humblegunner
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To: fishtank

Yes, they saw it.
The last one of its kind alive.
Then they ground its plates into powder to use as an aphrodisiac.


24 posted on 06/23/2014 11:26:20 AM PDT by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both.)
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To: Conan the Librarian

From the picture, it seems to me that one could argue that the tail is not completely drawn, especially the part where the thagomizer would be located.


25 posted on 06/23/2014 11:30:21 AM PDT by bkopto (Free men are not equal. Equal men are not free.)
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To: fishtank

Actually, though those do look more like stegosaur plates, I think the head shape make it look more like an ankylosaurus to me.


26 posted on 06/23/2014 12:12:07 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: tacticalogic
Don't confuse the issue with logic, there has to be an explanation. After all, since the speed of light is slowing down and

Look a squirrel.....

Where was I?

27 posted on 06/23/2014 12:13:01 PM PDT by par4
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To: tacticalogic

“How does that “clearly support the Biblical view of dinosaurs”? That’s a 3200 year old carving. Creationist dogma says all of the dinosaurs were wiped out in the Great Flood 800 years before this carving was made.”

Creationist dogma? There’s no such thing. Creationists have a variety of opinions, and there is no central authority among them to enshrine anything into “dogma”.

The Bible does not say that dinosaurs all died in the flood. Some creationists may think they did, but certainly not all believe that.


28 posted on 06/23/2014 12:19:38 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Natufian

Looks like a stylized lion to me.


29 posted on 06/23/2014 12:28:14 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: fishtank

Thanks fishtank. There are a lot of “ooparts” like this. The question is, how could they so accurately depict an animal they’d never seen?

Additionally, there are accounts of human interaction with large reptiles that were decimating livestock (and in some cases killing people). Invariably, the people banded together and eliminated the threat. (From ldolphin.org)

The giant reptile at Bures in Suffolk, for example, is known to us from a chronicle of 1405:

‘Close to the town of Bures, near Sudbury, there has lately appeared, to the great hurt of the countryside, a dragon, vast in body, with a crested head, teeth like a saw, and a tail extending to an enormous length. Having slaughtered the shepherd of a flock, it devoured many sheep.’

After an unsuccessful attempt by local archers to kill the beast, due to its impenetrable hide,

‘...in order to destroy him, all the country people around were summoned. But when the dragon saw that he was again to be assailed with arrows, he fled into a marsh or mere and there hid himself among the long reeds, and was no more seen.’

(This chronicle was begun by John de Trokelow and finished by Henry de Blaneford. It was translated and reproduced in the Rolls Series. 1866. IV. ed. H.G. Riley. (cit. Simpson, J., British Dragons., B.T. Batsford Ltd. 1980. p. 60).)

The Bible describes behemoth:

Job 40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
Job 40:16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
Job 40:17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

A huge animal whose tail is massive like a cedar. Elephant? Nope. Hippo? Nope. Rhino? Nope.


30 posted on 06/23/2014 12:51:52 PM PDT by afsnco
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To: afsnco; Godzilla
A huge animal whose tail is massive like a cedar. Elephant? Nope. Hippo? Nope. Rhino? Nope.

Go Go Godzilla!


31 posted on 06/23/2014 1:13:08 PM PDT by humblegunner
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To: Boogieman
The Bible does not say that dinosaurs all died in the flood.

That's the only explanation I've ever heard for their extinction.

32 posted on 06/23/2014 2:27:19 PM PDT by tacticalogic
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To: tacticalogic

That’s not a very popular stance with creationists, because it’s difficult to reconcile that with the idea that Noah took representatives of all living terrestrial creatures aboard the Ark with him.


33 posted on 06/23/2014 2:35:31 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman

34 posted on 06/23/2014 2:38:37 PM PDT by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans)
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To: Boogieman
That’s not a very popular stance with creationists, because it’s difficult to reconcile that with the idea that Noah took representatives of all living terrestrial creatures aboard the Ark with him.

The explanations I've heard is that Noah did not take the "unclean" animals on the Ark with him. Only representatives of some were taken, and those not taken all perished in the flood, becoming extinct.

What other theories do that have to explain the extinction of all the plants and animals that we find only in the fossil record?

35 posted on 06/23/2014 2:44:23 PM PDT by tacticalogic
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To: fishtank

Calling them ‘dragons’ instead of ‘dinosaurs’ might be enlightening...


36 posted on 06/23/2014 2:53:33 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: tacticalogic

“The explanations I’ve heard is that Noah did not take the “unclean” animals on the Ark with him.”

That’s incorrect, the Bible clearly states that he took both clean and unclean animals aboard the Ark. He just took fewer of the unclean ones. So anyone making that argument is probably not very well informed.

“What other theories do that have to explain the extinction of all the plants and animals that we find only in the fossil record?”

Personally, I think there was a radical change in the environment during the time of the flood, and that many species simply could not adapt. For example, many of the creatures we see that are extinct could not have survived at our current atmospheric pressure. If the pressure was higher before the flood, then dropped afterwards, any species above a certain size would have died very quickly, unless they were completely aquatic, like whales.


37 posted on 06/23/2014 2:58:09 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman; tacticalogic
That’s not a very popular stance with creationists, because it’s difficult to reconcile that with the idea that Noah took representatives of all living terrestrial creatures aboard the Ark with him.

Gen 6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
Gen 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

(e-Sword:KJV)

38 posted on 06/23/2014 3:10:14 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: Boogieman
Personally, I think there was a radical change in the environment during the time of the flood, and that many species simply could not adapt. For example, many of the creatures we see that are extinct could not have survived at our current atmospheric pressure. If the pressure was higher before the flood, then dropped afterwards, any species above a certain size would have died very quickly, unless they were completely aquatic, like whales.

There's not shortage of examples of small animals and fish in the fossil records, not to mention plants. What evidence do you have that this is what happened?

Whatever changes occurred would have to be lethal to a wide variety of birds, land and aquatic animals, and plants, except for people and the modern animals we see today. Whatever conditions existed before that had to be suitable to all of them.

39 posted on 06/23/2014 3:49:11 PM PDT by tacticalogic
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To: roamer_1

What do you think that means? Do you think that animals are included in the words “all flesh”? If so, wouldn’t that interpretation also mean that verse 13 declares that the end had come for the animals?


40 posted on 06/23/2014 3:55:40 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: tacticalogic

“There’s not shortage of examples of small animals and fish in the fossil records, not to mention plants. What evidence do you have that this is what happened?”

I said “for example”, to illustrate one type of drastic climate change that seems to have happened in the past that could account for the type of extinctions which occurred. I didn’t mean to imply that one cause resulted in all the extinctions, I just offered one example that I think is probably specifically relevant to dinosaurs.

“Whatever changes occurred would have to be lethal to a wide variety of birds, land and aquatic animals, and plants, except for people and the modern animals we see today. Whatever conditions existed before that had to be suitable to all of them.”

Well, ecology is precarious. A single extinction caused by environmental factors could lead to a chain of extinctions involving species which were not directly affected by the environmental factor, but which were dependent on the existence of an anchor species. One species could be affected by such a chain of events, but a closely related species living nearby with slightly different habits might escape unscathed. Trying to either predict, or speculatively reconstruct these events, with our current level of knowledge, is not going to be very fruitful I think.


41 posted on 06/23/2014 4:08:04 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman
Do you think the evidence presented in this article is sufficient to disprove the theory of evolution?

If so, doesn't it provide the same disproof of any theory that the dinosaurs were wiped out in the flood?

42 posted on 06/23/2014 4:13:50 PM PDT by tacticalogic
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To: tacticalogic

“Do you think the evidence presented in this article is sufficient to disprove the theory of evolution?”

No, I don’t really think that this evidence alone is enough to do that. It might be enough, taken together with a lot of other evidences, to show the theory to be dubious.

“If so, doesn’t it provide the same disproof of any theory that the dinosaurs were wiped out in the flood?”

Yes, sure, if this could be shown to be positively a depiction of a living dinosaur, then that would have to mean they survived much later than the flood. Unless, of course, our dating of the temple and its builders were way off.


43 posted on 06/23/2014 4:28:38 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman

Doesn’t the article strike you as being a little one-sided in terms of what theories and ideas this evidence supposedly casts doubt upon?


44 posted on 06/23/2014 4:44:54 PM PDT by tacticalogic
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To: Boogieman
What do you think that means? Do you think that animals are included in the words “all flesh”?

Sure. Call me a literalist.

If so, wouldn’t that interpretation also mean that verse 13 declares that the end had come for the animals?

Yep... In exactly the same way He said the end has come for all men:

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

But Noah was not corrupt - being 'perfect in his generations' (stop and think about what that means)... So too those animals He selected to be saved along with Noah. I think YHWH made the dragon too - He sure brags it up about Behemoth and Leviathon... But I don't think the lion's share of what we know as dinosaurs were his design... full of violence, and corrupted... I think the Nephilim (fallen angels and their offspring) had a good bit to do with it (see Gen 6:1-4)

45 posted on 06/23/2014 4:45:31 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: fishtank
The context of the ‘Angkor stegosaur’ shows that it is pictured with numerous animals known to the locals, such as a water buffalo (above the stegosaur).

So if the "stegosauri" is a real depiction, what is the beast at the bottom of the totem> It looks like a bearded man on a lions body to me.

46 posted on 06/23/2014 6:45:52 PM PDT by LoneRangerMassachusetts (The meek shall not inherit the Earth)
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To: tacticalogic

Sure, why wouldn’t it be? It’s an advocacy piece, not an academic text.


47 posted on 06/23/2014 7:40:52 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: roamer_1

“But Noah was not corrupt - being ‘perfect in his generations’ (stop and think about what that means)... So too those animals He selected to be saved along with Noah.”

The Bible only actually says this about Noah though, it doesn’t say that about the animals. Also, it doesn’t say that was the reason Noah (along with his family) was chosen to be saved:

“7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.”

Gen 6:7-8

He was saved because of God’s grace, just as Christians are saved by grace.

Also, Gen 7:1 says:

“And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.”

This is what is meant by the phase “perfect in his generations” earlier in Gen. 6:9. The KJV uses the plural “generations” twice in that verse, but they are actually two different Hebrew words. The first (in “these are the generations of Noah”) is Strong’s #H8435, which carries the meaning of a person’s geneology:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H8435&t=KJV

The second (in “Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations”) is Strong’s #H1755, which carries the meaning of a span of time, or the people living during that period of time:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H1755&t=KJV

This same word #H1755 is also the one used in Gen 7:1, so both phrases are talking about Noah being perfect or righteous amongst those alive at the time, that generation of people.


48 posted on 06/23/2014 8:21:40 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: fishtank

I do not see why some dinosaurs could not have survived into the last few millenia. Are crocs and komodos imaginary?

There is no reason ,though, to think that a “modern” critter would have to be as huge as their ancient ancestors were-——look how much smaller many modern mammals are than their Ice Age predecessors. Maybe the stegosaur pictured was the size of a cow.


49 posted on 06/23/2014 9:40:49 PM PDT by Rockpile
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To: Boogieman

Some people think it’s a scientific journal.


50 posted on 06/24/2014 3:05:29 AM PDT by tacticalogic
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