Skip to comments.The Army Wants a More Potent Sidearm
Posted on 07/05/2014 12:47:51 PM PDT by virgil283
"Soldiers who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan have complained that the 9mm round is not powerful enough to be effective in combat.
The 9mm doesnt score high with soldier feedback, said Easlick, explaining that the Army, and the other services, want a round that will have better terminal effects or cause more damage when it hits enemy combatants.
One of the major goals of the MHS effort is to adopt a pistol chambered for a more potent round than the current 9mm, weapons officials said. ..."
(Excerpt) Read more at neveryetmelted.com ...
You’ll shoot yer eye out with that thing.
No matter what caliber they choose, they’re probably still stuck with an FMJ.
With the right bullets, the 9mm is a fine round. The problem is the military will not use them. I think I have read that they have the right to use them but for some reason will not.
If you must stick to fmj bullets then a .45 is preferable. The old 1911 is fine but I think we can do better now. Maybe the new Sig double column mag. model would do.
Unfortunately that would mean admitting a mistake - something government minions very rarely do. Instead they’ll spend millions on a study, then more millions on research and development, then still more millions on a pilot project, then the whole thing will get whacked in a budget deal.
Just use a 22-250!
I carried that while I was in the service, but if I was to be separated from my APC, I would be looking hard for an M14.
John Moses Browning invented the Army’s more potent sidearm 103 years ago! It replaced the anemic Colt Single Action Army (SAA) that was chambered in .38 Colt.
IIRC, JHP round are prohibited by the Geneva Convention.
Is it any wonder why we don’t win wars anymore?
If memory serves right MARSOC already adopted 1911 pattern handguns or their sidearm. I hear Green Berets, and Delta use them as well, as well as other members of the Special Operations community. There are already several qualified experts that can train people on the 1911 platform should somebody decide to bring it back.
Such a thing was already done with the M-14, they were brought back as Designated Marksman Rifles and also used in the past in sniper rifle form as the M-21.
JHP not allowed for military use as per Geneva convention, I heard.
Al-Qaeda and ISIS probably don’t give a crap about any conventional rulings.
But DHS has purchased millions of rounds and will not hesitate to use them (or they would not have purchased them in the first place).
Another full bird or one star in acquisitions is getting ready to retire.
Picked up a Kimber .45 ACP Compact last Saturday......sweet sweet sweet is all I can say.
How about a Sig Sauer P226 in .357 SIG?
But the Beretta is a large frame handgun. Many people - and not just women - have complained it is too big to easily handle.
“Even Beretta has its downsides. One of the problems of 92 series is the grips that are rather large. 92 series ergonomics does not work well for those with medium-small hands. These shooters will have difficulties to reach the trigger, especially if the first shot was in double action.” - See more at: http://www.all4shooters.com/en/articles/technics/2013/Semiautomatic-pistol-full-size-comparison-beretta-glock-colt/#sthash.V5nOzg2C.dpuf
Actually it is the Hague Convention which bans expanding ammunition. The Geneva Convention only has to do with the treatment of prisoners.
All you have to do is to follow the money.
Ask yourself, who benefitted financially among our congress critters when US Armed Forces changed from .45ACP to 9mm Luger?
Probably the same guys and gals who also promoted those silly wind turbines and solar panels.
Being a congress critter can be a very lucrative business.
In the Philippines, General Pershing’s troops proved that this fine weapon did a great job of dropping raging ragheads.
I don’t think there is really anything wrong with the Beretta model 92. It won over everything except the Sig P226 in test after test. First by the Air Force, then by the Army, then again by the Army.
The Beretta is simply reliable. I have heard that the Army got ahold of some bad mags for a while and the grip is just a little large for some people. The Browning Hi-Power and Sig P-226 feel much better in my hand. The Germans found the 9mm just fine in two wars.
They don’t call it ‘’man stopper’’ for nothing. Bring it back.
The reason the 1911A1 has survived so long is a rare combination of things: a .45 ACP will stop even a hashish-hopped, leather band wearing Muslim fanatic, something a .38 was far less likely to do (Philippine Insurrection); it could survive and function in extremes of cold and heat, wet and dusty dry; it almost never jammed; it had a barrel end safety, a grip safety, a slide safety, a sear disconnect, half cock safety, and firing pin safety.
The sidearm they need has already been invented
My Dad had one of these through most of my formative years. It was fun to shoot. My issue with is was it wasn't reliably accurate at a range of just over six feet.
It seemed designed to work in any environment, but also seemed to have quite tolerant ranges in its few moving parts.
While I imagine that the military does have the right to use expanding ammunition against terrorists and the like since none of that lot have signed any treaties nor even considered abiding by them, it’s probably a logistical concern as much as anything. Sorting out which bullets could be used on which targets would be rather annoying, and it’s easier to just generally stick to the treaty provisions even if you are fighting non signatories.
It someone with a 9mm round and it goes into them. Hit them with a .45 caliber round and it cuts them in half.
FMJ is preferable for infantry combat because a wounded soldier is a drain on an enemy, while a dead soldier isn’t. FMJ is also better for penetrating enemy cover.
The open slide always looked dicey to me, especially in a dusty environment.
The 1911s I've shot were more accurate than I am.
Thanks for the correction.
I once shot a coon out of a tree with a .45acp. I hit him twice in the thorax and he still had plenty of fight left in him after he hit the ground.
Much ado about nothing. I never carried a pistol in combat, even when it was my assigned weapon. Only a rifle did what I needed done. Those who truly need a pistol for something other than as a symbol of authority or as a personal defense weapon already have what they want. Special Operations forces choose the weapon that they want and they often choose a Sig Sauer in various chamberings. When I was spending my own money, I bought a Sig Sauer P228R in 9mm. Don’t quite know why the Army chose the Berreta over the Sig, but they did and its been OK. My list of stuff that I need/want would be pretty long by the time I got around to picking what pistol I needed.
I find that hard to believe. What kind of raccoon can stand up to a .45?
Is it any wonder why we dont win wars anymore?
It was the Hague Convention of 1899 and the United States did not sign so in reality we are not covered by the Convention. For some reason we seen to follow most of it, sometimes to our detriment.
The Beretta and the SIG were the only two to pass the tests. Interestingly the original ones by the Air Force and the later ones by the Army all came to the same conclusion.
Beretta won the contract because they made a better offer.
I have seen photos of German Waffen SS men carrying the Browning Hi-Power. I have also read that it was a favorite of theirs.
Whenever a female caller asked how he was, he would answer, 'virile, vigorous and POTENT!'
I don’t mean to be unkind but when you said a .45 auto would cut a man in half, I knew you had never shot anything with one.
Yes, because we have always complied with the Hague Convention prohibiting expanding bullets even though we are not a signatory on the Convention.
It is presumed that they will use a flat nose FMJ bullet similar in profile to a conventional hollow point bullet. A flat nose FMJ bullet will disrupt enemy bodies more than a pointed or round nose FMJ bullet.
And, a single column magazine is entirely adequate. More available rounds just encourages "Spraying and Praying". That is one of the reasons our military removed the full auto capability from most of the M16/M4 series of weapons and replaced it with a 3-shot burst.
Aiming is a very under rated survival tactic in combat.
S&W 500. Don’t leave the Humvee without it. :-)
DUH.. They had the pistol they needed in the 45acp round.
Never should have left it.
DUH.. They had the pistol they needed in the 45acp round.
Never should have left it.
Women and men with small hands can’t get their mits around a double stack 45.
.40 SW might work but you would have logistical issues with a non standard round making the decision whether the change is worthwhile more difficult.
If they won’t use expanding rounds, they may need to completely rethink sidearms.
anybody here tried out a rifle in .300 Blackout? That looks pretty cool.
S&W 500 for those that take weight lifting seriously.
1911 doing it better for 103 years!
Para has taken the 1911 designed and modified it to hold 14+1. This eliminates the one drawback of the original 1911 as it was 7+1. The para is a double stack magazine holding 14 rounds. The frame has also been beefed up to handle the +P ammo. +P ammo in a 45 caliber is a man stopper. Oddly enough the +P ammo in a 9mm is more powerful than the standard standard 230 grain FMJ that was used in the original 1911. However, the +P in a 45 caliber has amazing ballistics. It will ruin your whole day.
Click link below for info on the Para 1911.
Every Beretta I've ever handled had a failure to feed during shooting practice. I fixed them all by giving the magazine spring a little "stretchy-stretchy" (thx whoever showed me that, I can't recall now). Seemed kind of weird to me, what's the point of a ductile spring? I suspect gov't requirements at the root of some conflicted engineering decision...