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The Army Wants a More Potent Sidearm
neveryetmelted ^

Posted on 07/05/2014 12:47:51 PM PDT by virgil283

"Soldiers who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan have complained that the 9mm round is not powerful enough to be effective in combat.

“The 9mm doesn’t score high with soldier feedback,” said Easlick, explaining that the Army, and the other services, want a round that will have better terminal effects — or cause more damage — when it hits enemy combatants.

One of the major goals of the MHS effort is to adopt a pistol chambered for a more potent round than the current 9mm, weapons officials said. ..."

(Excerpt) Read more at neveryetmelted.com ...


TOPICS: Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: army; banglist; sidearm
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.....The sidearm they need has already been invented.;
1 posted on 07/05/2014 12:47:51 PM PDT by virgil283
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To: virgil283
God Bless John Moses Browning.

/johnny

2 posted on 07/05/2014 12:48:49 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: virgil283

You’ll shoot yer eye out with that thing.


3 posted on 07/05/2014 12:51:09 PM PDT by BipolarBob (Obama - The Scandal a Week President.)
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To: virgil283

No matter what caliber they choose, they’re probably still stuck with an FMJ.


4 posted on 07/05/2014 12:52:18 PM PDT by umgud (I couldn't understand why the ball kept getting bigger......... then it hit me.)
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To: virgil283

With the right bullets, the 9mm is a fine round. The problem is the military will not use them. I think I have read that they have the right to use them but for some reason will not.

If you must stick to fmj bullets then a .45 is preferable. The old 1911 is fine but I think we can do better now. Maybe the new Sig double column mag. model would do.


5 posted on 07/05/2014 12:52:50 PM PDT by yarddog (Romans 8: verses 38 and 39. "For I am persuaded".)
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To: virgil283

Unfortunately that would mean admitting a mistake - something government minions very rarely do. Instead they’ll spend millions on a study, then more millions on research and development, then still more millions on a pilot project, then the whole thing will get whacked in a budget deal.


6 posted on 07/05/2014 12:53:36 PM PDT by SeeSharp
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To: virgil283
Lots of comments here.
7 posted on 07/05/2014 12:55:02 PM PDT by Hoodat (Proverbs 29:2)
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To: virgil283

Just use a 22-250!


8 posted on 07/05/2014 12:56:29 PM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (Pubbies = national collectivists; Dems = international collectivists; We need a second party!)
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To: virgil283

I carried that while I was in the service, but if I was to be separated from my APC, I would be looking hard for an M14.


9 posted on 07/05/2014 12:56:58 PM PDT by Starstruck (If my reply offends, you probably don't understand sarcasm or criticism...or do.)
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To: JRandomFreeper

Indeed


10 posted on 07/05/2014 12:57:17 PM PDT by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
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To: virgil283

John Moses Browning invented the Army’s more potent sidearm 103 years ago! It replaced the anemic Colt Single Action Army (SAA) that was chambered in .38 Colt.


11 posted on 07/05/2014 12:59:10 PM PDT by wjcsux ("In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell)
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To: umgud

IIRC, JHP round are prohibited by the Geneva Convention.

Is it any wonder why we don’t win wars anymore?


12 posted on 07/05/2014 1:00:13 PM PDT by Las Vegas Ron ("Medicine is the keystone in the arch of socialism" Vladimir Lenin)
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To: virgil283
The shift from the 1911 was never about combat performance. It was all about giving Europe a contract and having a pistol to fit female-sized hands.
13 posted on 07/05/2014 1:01:01 PM PDT by DakotaGator (Weep for the lost Republic! And keep your powder dry!!)
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To: virgil283

If memory serves right MARSOC already adopted 1911 pattern handguns or their sidearm. I hear Green Berets, and Delta use them as well, as well as other members of the Special Operations community. There are already several qualified experts that can train people on the 1911 platform should somebody decide to bring it back.

Such a thing was already done with the M-14, they were brought back as Designated Marksman Rifles and also used in the past in sniper rifle form as the M-21.


14 posted on 07/05/2014 1:01:38 PM PDT by Antihero101607
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To: umgud

JHP not allowed for military use as per Geneva convention, I heard.

Al-Qaeda and ISIS probably don’t give a crap about any conventional rulings.

But DHS has purchased millions of rounds and will not hesitate to use them (or they would not have purchased them in the first place).


15 posted on 07/05/2014 1:02:31 PM PDT by 353FMG
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To: virgil283

Another full bird or one star in acquisitions is getting ready to retire.


16 posted on 07/05/2014 1:03:05 PM PDT by Tailback
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To: yarddog

Picked up a Kimber .45 ACP Compact last Saturday......sweet sweet sweet is all I can say.


17 posted on 07/05/2014 1:03:27 PM PDT by Las Vegas Ron ("Medicine is the keystone in the arch of socialism" Vladimir Lenin)
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To: yarddog

How about a Sig Sauer P226 in .357 SIG?


18 posted on 07/05/2014 1:04:26 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Conservatism is the political disposition of grown-ups.)
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To: DakotaGator

But the Beretta is a large frame handgun. Many people - and not just women - have complained it is too big to easily handle.

“Even Beretta has its downsides. One of the problems of 92 series is the grips that are rather large. 92 series ergonomics does not work well for those with medium-small hands. These shooters will have difficulties to reach the trigger, especially if the first shot was in double action.” - See more at: http://www.all4shooters.com/en/articles/technics/2013/Semiautomatic-pistol-full-size-comparison-beretta-glock-colt/#sthash.V5nOzg2C.dpuf


19 posted on 07/05/2014 1:07:30 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Las Vegas Ron

Actually it is the Hague Convention which bans expanding ammunition. The Geneva Convention only has to do with the treatment of prisoners.


20 posted on 07/05/2014 1:08:34 PM PDT by drbuzzard (All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.)
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To: SeeSharp

All you have to do is to follow the money.

Ask yourself, who benefitted financially among our congress critters when US Armed Forces changed from .45ACP to 9mm Luger?

Probably the same guys and gals who also promoted those silly wind turbines and solar panels.

Being a congress critter can be a very lucrative business.


21 posted on 07/05/2014 1:08:49 PM PDT by 353FMG
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To: virgil283

In the Philippines, General Pershing’s troops proved that this fine weapon did a great job of dropping raging ragheads.


22 posted on 07/05/2014 1:09:13 PM PDT by wjcsux ("In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell)
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To: Jeff Chandler

I don’t think there is really anything wrong with the Beretta model 92. It won over everything except the Sig P226 in test after test. First by the Air Force, then by the Army, then again by the Army.

The Beretta is simply reliable. I have heard that the Army got ahold of some bad mags for a while and the grip is just a little large for some people. The Browning Hi-Power and Sig P-226 feel much better in my hand. The Germans found the 9mm just fine in two wars.


23 posted on 07/05/2014 1:09:13 PM PDT by yarddog (Romans 8: verses 38 and 39. "For I am persuaded".)
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To: virgil283

They don’t call it ‘’man stopper’’ for nothing. Bring it back.


24 posted on 07/05/2014 1:09:54 PM PDT by jmacusa
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To: virgil283

The reason the 1911A1 has survived so long is a rare combination of things: a .45 ACP will stop even a hashish-hopped, leather band wearing Muslim fanatic, something a .38 was far less likely to do (Philippine Insurrection); it could survive and function in extremes of cold and heat, wet and dusty dry; it almost never jammed; it had a barrel end safety, a grip safety, a slide safety, a sear disconnect, half cock safety, and firing pin safety.


25 posted on 07/05/2014 1:10:04 PM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy ("Don't compare me to the almighty, compare me to the alternative." -Obama, 09-24-11)
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To: virgil283

The sidearm they need has already been invented

My Dad had one of these through most of my formative years. It was fun to shoot. My issue with is was it wasn't reliably accurate at a range of just over six feet.

It seemed designed to work in any environment, but also seemed to have quite tolerant ranges in its few moving parts.

26 posted on 07/05/2014 1:10:49 PM PDT by stevem
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To: yarddog

While I imagine that the military does have the right to use expanding ammunition against terrorists and the like since none of that lot have signed any treaties nor even considered abiding by them, it’s probably a logistical concern as much as anything. Sorting out which bullets could be used on which targets would be rather annoying, and it’s easier to just generally stick to the treaty provisions even if you are fighting non signatories.


27 posted on 07/05/2014 1:11:09 PM PDT by drbuzzard (All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.)
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To: yarddog

It someone with a 9mm round and it goes into them. Hit them with a .45 caliber round and it cuts them in half.


28 posted on 07/05/2014 1:11:29 PM PDT by jmacusa
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To: umgud

FMJ is preferable for infantry combat because a wounded soldier is a drain on an enemy, while a dead soldier isn’t. FMJ is also better for penetrating enemy cover.


29 posted on 07/05/2014 1:11:31 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Conservatism is the political disposition of grown-ups.)
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To: vladimir998
But the Beretta is a large frame handgun.

The open slide always looked dicey to me, especially in a dusty environment.

30 posted on 07/05/2014 1:12:16 PM PDT by Pearls Before Swine
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To: stevem
My issue with is was it wasn't reliably accurate at a range of just over six feet.

The 1911s I've shot were more accurate than I am.

31 posted on 07/05/2014 1:13:56 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Conservatism is the political disposition of grown-ups.)
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To: drbuzzard

Thanks for the correction.


32 posted on 07/05/2014 1:14:51 PM PDT by Las Vegas Ron ("Medicine is the keystone in the arch of socialism" Vladimir Lenin)
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To: jmacusa

I once shot a coon out of a tree with a .45acp. I hit him twice in the thorax and he still had plenty of fight left in him after he hit the ground.


33 posted on 07/05/2014 1:15:48 PM PDT by yarddog (Romans 8: verses 38 and 39. "For I am persuaded".)
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To: virgil283

Much ado about nothing. I never carried a pistol in combat, even when it was my assigned weapon. Only a rifle did what I needed done. Those who truly need a pistol for something other than as a symbol of authority or as a personal defense weapon already have what they want. Special Operations forces choose the weapon that they want and they often choose a Sig Sauer in various chamberings. When I was spending my own money, I bought a Sig Sauer P228R in 9mm. Don’t quite know why the Army chose the Berreta over the Sig, but they did and its been OK. My list of stuff that I need/want would be pretty long by the time I got around to picking what pistol I needed.


34 posted on 07/05/2014 1:20:04 PM PDT by centurion316
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To: yarddog

I find that hard to believe. What kind of raccoon can stand up to a .45?


35 posted on 07/05/2014 1:24:13 PM PDT by jmacusa
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To: Las Vegas Ron
IIRC, JHP round are prohibited by the Geneva Convention.

Is it any wonder why we don’t win wars anymore?

It was the Hague Convention of 1899 and the United States did not sign so in reality we are not covered by the Convention. For some reason we seen to follow most of it, sometimes to our detriment.

36 posted on 07/05/2014 1:27:08 PM PDT by OldMissileer
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To: centurion316

The Beretta and the SIG were the only two to pass the tests. Interestingly the original ones by the Air Force and the later ones by the Army all came to the same conclusion.

Beretta won the contract because they made a better offer.

I have seen photos of German Waffen SS men carrying the Browning Hi-Power. I have also read that it was a favorite of theirs.


37 posted on 07/05/2014 1:27:31 PM PDT by yarddog (Romans 8: verses 38 and 39. "For I am persuaded".)
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To: virgil283
G.Gordon Liddy's email used to be 'potent357(at)AOL.com', or something like that.

Whenever a female caller asked how he was, he would answer, 'virile, vigorous and POTENT!'

38 posted on 07/05/2014 1:29:07 PM PDT by real saxophonist (Fightin' in a basement)
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To: jmacusa

I don’t mean to be unkind but when you said a .45 auto would cut a man in half, I knew you had never shot anything with one.


39 posted on 07/05/2014 1:29:11 PM PDT by yarddog (Romans 8: verses 38 and 39. "For I am persuaded".)
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To: JRandomFreeper
1911 design in 50acp, with a double stack magazine.
40 posted on 07/05/2014 1:31:03 PM PDT by 2001convSVT (Going Galt as fast as I can.)
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To: umgud
"No matter what caliber they choose, they’re probably still stuck with an FMJ."

Yes, because we have always complied with the Hague Convention prohibiting expanding bullets even though we are not a signatory on the Convention.

It is presumed that they will use a flat nose FMJ bullet similar in profile to a conventional hollow point bullet. A flat nose FMJ bullet will disrupt enemy bodies more than a pointed or round nose FMJ bullet.

And, a single column magazine is entirely adequate. More available rounds just encourages "Spraying and Praying". That is one of the reasons our military removed the full auto capability from most of the M16/M4 series of weapons and replaced it with a 3-shot burst.

Aiming is a very under rated survival tactic in combat.

41 posted on 07/05/2014 1:35:56 PM PDT by Buffalo Head (Illigitimi non carborundum)
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To: virgil283

S&W 500. Don’t leave the Humvee without it. :-)


42 posted on 07/05/2014 1:37:59 PM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose o f a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: virgil283

DUH.. They had the pistol they needed in the 45acp round.
Never should have left it.


43 posted on 07/05/2014 1:39:52 PM PDT by SECURE AMERICA (I am an American Not a Republican or a Democrat.)
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To: virgil283

DUH.. They had the pistol they needed in the 45acp round.
Never should have left it.


44 posted on 07/05/2014 1:40:57 PM PDT by SECURE AMERICA (I am an American Not a Republican or a Democrat.)
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To: yarddog

Women and men with small hands can’t get their mits around a double stack 45.

.40 SW might work but you would have logistical issues with a non standard round making the decision whether the change is worthwhile more difficult.

If they won’t use expanding rounds, they may need to completely rethink sidearms.


45 posted on 07/05/2014 1:45:45 PM PDT by dangerdoc ((this space for rent))
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To: virgil283
Desert Eagle in 454 Casull.
46 posted on 07/05/2014 1:46:41 PM PDT by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: Antihero101607
Comparatively, there are other weapons in .308 that will do better than an M-14. One of them is the FN SCAR. A lot lighter, modular barrel lengths, folding stock is good for getting in and out of vehicles.

anybody here tried out a rifle in .300 Blackout? That looks pretty cool.

47 posted on 07/05/2014 1:51:34 PM PDT by USNBandit (sarcasm engaged at all times)
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To: virgil283

S&W 500 for those that take weight lifting seriously.


48 posted on 07/05/2014 1:58:31 PM PDT by ConservativeInPA (We need to fundamentally transform RATs lives for their lies.)
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To: virgil283

1911 doing it better for 103 years!

Para has taken the 1911 designed and modified it to hold 14+1. This eliminates the one drawback of the original 1911 as it was 7+1. The para is a double stack magazine holding 14 rounds. The frame has also been beefed up to handle the +P ammo. +P ammo in a 45 caliber is a man stopper. Oddly enough the +P ammo in a 9mm is more powerful than the standard standard 230 grain FMJ that was used in the original 1911. However, the +P in a 45 caliber has amazing ballistics. It will ruin your whole day.

Click link below for info on the Para 1911.

http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2013/12/para-usa-p14-45-gun-review/?scrape=true


49 posted on 07/05/2014 1:58:34 PM PDT by cpdiii (=)
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To: Pearls Before Swine
But the Beretta is a large frame handgun. The open slide always looked dicey to me, especially in a dusty environment.

Every Beretta I've ever handled had a failure to feed during shooting practice. I fixed them all by giving the magazine spring a little "stretchy-stretchy" (thx whoever showed me that, I can't recall now). Seemed kind of weird to me, what's the point of a ductile spring? I suspect gov't requirements at the root of some conflicted engineering decision...

50 posted on 07/05/2014 2:00:07 PM PDT by no-s (when democracy is displaced by tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote)
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