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Desire a national Fair Tax or Flat Tax!

Posted on 07/10/2014 4:06:02 AM PDT by Texask9

Lets get fair tax passed.


TOPICS: Chit/Chat
KEYWORDS: tax; unfairtax
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Few years back people were talking about how the flat tax and fair tax would be so much better but I don't hear anyone talking about it anymore. I personally prefer the fairtax. fairtax.org

Get rid of IRS. No more worrying about people being paid under the table. Illegals will be paying tax. GET RID OF IRS. Businesses thrive. Simplify life. Keep your check. The more crap you buy the more tax you pay

1 posted on 07/10/2014 4:06:03 AM PDT by Texask9
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To: Texask9

the fair tax isn’t fair. flat tax on all income


2 posted on 07/10/2014 4:09:58 AM PDT by camle (keep an open mind and someone will fill it full of something for you)
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To: Texask9

I still support the fair tax, even if it hasn’t come up for awhile as a topic here.


3 posted on 07/10/2014 4:11:17 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Texask9

What’s a fair tax? Isn’t that like a clean turd or an honest liar? Taxes by definition aren’t “fair” in that they make some people pay for the benefits to others. It isn’t how taxes are collected that is the crux of the problem, IT’S HOW THEY’RE SPENT!


4 posted on 07/10/2014 4:22:24 AM PDT by from occupied ga (Your government is your most dangerous enemy)
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To: Texask9

Fair tax.


5 posted on 07/10/2014 4:23:02 AM PDT by freedomfiter2 (Brutal acts of commission and yawning acts of omission both strengthen the hand of the devil.)
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To: Texask9

Hubby and I prefer the flat tax. It is the most simple and most fair.


6 posted on 07/10/2014 4:26:12 AM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: camle

flat tax on all purchases..

lets stop penalizing income.


7 posted on 07/10/2014 4:27:59 AM PDT by cableguymn (It's time for a second political party.)
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To: freedomfiter2
Flat Tax with very low minimum exemptions so everyone has skin in the game. The Fair tax has huge enforcement issues and having a prebate is problematical.
8 posted on 07/10/2014 4:28:56 AM PDT by bt-99 ("Get off my Lawn")
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To: cableguymn

so if you make an income large enough that you spend less a percentage on purchases, then you pay less a percentage taxes that a poorer person who must spend more of his income on purchases.


9 posted on 07/10/2014 4:33:25 AM PDT by camle (keep an open mind and someone will fill it full of something for you)
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To: camle

Why should income be a factor in this at all? Taxes on sales/purchases would be a percentage of the value of the item/service.

Bringing in ‘income’ and who pays what percentage of income for what is just a variation of the graduated income tax now. In other words, it’s about somebody’s feelings about what is ‘fair’ or not. AND THAT is what got us where we are today with half of this country thinking their rights include somebody else paying for their existence.


10 posted on 07/10/2014 4:38:00 AM PDT by Gaffer
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To: camle

at some point, you are gonna have to spend it.

rich people tend not to live like the poor. They opt for the McMansion over the trailer (I’ve lived in trailers, I can say that)

They opt for the benz over the kia..

They have full blown cable over basic (well.. wait.. bad example)

By taxing sales over income it encourages something we don’t have right now. Savings.


11 posted on 07/10/2014 4:41:52 AM PDT by cableguymn (It's time for a second political party.)
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To: camle

A tax on income is inherently wrong because it taxes you based on the measure of your productivity. The fair tax taxes you based on consumption.

Far better would be to tax states based on their representation, apportioned just like Congress. The states then decide how to collect and pay that tax.

The advantage there is that no fed has contact with a citizen.


12 posted on 07/10/2014 4:46:42 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: SumProVita

How do you keep it “flat”?

One of the huge advantages of the sales tax is that the payer sees it with every purchase and it’s not hidden like withholding.


13 posted on 07/10/2014 4:48:15 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: Texask9

The discussions on getting rid of the income tax system are always amusing.

1. Ain’t gonna happen. A very large percentage of the practical power of Congress derives from its ability to make slight changes in the tax code and therefore favor or punish particular groups.

2. The proponents generally seem to fall prey to the peculiar delusion that the same funds will be generated, but everybody will pay less. That everybody will come out ahead. A little thought will show that with any method of raising revenue, if the amount generated is the same, then any change will result in some paying more and some less.

Liberals made the same claim about Obamacare. Everybody will pay less and get more than under the previous system. We all know how well that worked out.

How in the world can we talk with a straight face about utterly remodeling American society, which is what elimination of the income tax would entail, when we can’t even elect a Congress and President? Any such dramatic change would require a significant super-majority, in practical if not constitutional terms, as it should. And we can’t pull together a simple majority.

The whole thing reminds me of calls for a constitutional amendment whenever getting a law passed is “too hard,” ignoring that an amendment is at least 10x harder to get through than a simple law.

The proper and only method of moving forward is to change public sentiment, elect majorities and then super-majorities. Talk of drastic change without following this path is delusional.


14 posted on 07/10/2014 4:52:26 AM PDT by Sherman Logan (Perception wins all the battles. Reality wins all the wars.)
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To: Texask9

Stop the invasion of the US through Texas first —


15 posted on 07/10/2014 4:56:48 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: MrB

The states then decide how to collect and pay that tax.

The advantage there is that no fed has contact with a citizen.

Even those states who do not now think they have an income tax, in reality do have one through the Federal Income Tax taking money directly from citizens who have earned their income within the borders of the state.

That revenue stream needs to be cut off or funneled through state government before what remains is able to be sent to DC.


16 posted on 07/10/2014 5:00:13 AM PDT by wita
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To: Texask9

Until spending is cut in half, no tax will be fair, or will make anyone happy.


17 posted on 07/10/2014 5:02:41 AM PDT by Daveinyork
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To: wita

The Fair Tax is the way to go. The fact that illegal aliens would NOT get the monthly prebate check would make life here unaffordable.


18 posted on 07/10/2014 5:04:36 AM PDT by cumbo78
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To: Texask9

I agree, get rid of the IRS.

The fair tax is applied to purchases.

The flat tax is still an ‘income’ tax, and would still require the IRS.


19 posted on 07/10/2014 5:09:12 AM PDT by Terry L Smith
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To: Texask9

I’m SO tired of hearing about the so-called “Fair Tax.” It is a dangerous fraud that keeps coming back like a bad Mexican dinner. You will NEVER get rid of some form of IRS, so grow up and get behind a flat tax!


20 posted on 07/10/2014 5:16:41 AM PDT by Wheelman81
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To: Sherman Logan

And most here, I’d speculate, would acknowledge a return to a Constitutional Republic is ‘never going to happen’ as well.

Your point, though true, is the sticking point. And I will point to one area where ‘changing the public’ is always talked about, but never seems to happen (no matter how ‘irate’ they may be): voting (IE: see to be the same re-voted into office time and time again...no matter how fleeced/pissed the public sentiment)

I would agree with another earlier post...it’s where the $$ is SPENT (that Constitutional thing again). I can not see the States passing an Amend ‘fix’ when it would then require them to actually do their JOBS (9th/10th) [I’ve completely given up on any hope of reforming D.C. What’s the definition of insanity again?]

Course, it could be my simple public (and self-taught) education, but I could never wrap my brain around two conflicting Amendments: Slavery vs. income-tax. Just at what % of income tax does ‘slavery’ kick in if not 100%??


21 posted on 07/10/2014 5:18:34 AM PDT by i_robot73 (Give me one example and I will show where gov't is the root of the problem(s).)
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To: Texask9

Flat tax of 10% with no deductibles and no minimum. Everybody pays the same rate. No corporate tax.


22 posted on 07/10/2014 5:29:10 AM PDT by SpeakerToAnimals (I hope to earn a name in battle)
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To: cumbo78

unaffordable

Aahh, for them. Had to read it three times before I got it.

Most states are already collecting some type of tax so the means of collection is already established, and what remains after state needs are met, is the minimal amount left over to be sent to Washington for Constitutionally mandated spending.


23 posted on 07/10/2014 5:31:30 AM PDT by wita
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To: SpeakerToAnimals

Prediction: The economy would explode and the debt would disappear in short order.

I approve especially of the government getting no more than the Lord desires.


24 posted on 07/10/2014 5:33:54 AM PDT by wita
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To: Texask9

Flat tax of 5%...


25 posted on 07/10/2014 5:34:52 AM PDT by ExCTCitizen (I'm ExCTCitizen and I approve this reply. If it does offend Libs, I'm NOT sorry...)
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To: wita

I figured somebody here would notice the number I chose was the amount God wants for running the whole universe.


26 posted on 07/10/2014 5:42:13 AM PDT by SpeakerToAnimals (I hope to earn a name in battle)
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To: Texask9

Texask9
Since Jul 9, 2014


Welcome to FR!!


27 posted on 07/10/2014 5:43:03 AM PDT by Arrowhead1952 (The Second Amendment is NOT about the right to hunt. It IS a right to shoot tyrants.)
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To: Texask9

Fair Tax will never fly becuase you’d have to repeal the 16th Amendment FIRST, or you’ll end up with an income tax and sales tax.

Flat Tax will never fly because you’ll never be able to apply the same tax rate to capital gains as you do earned income.


28 posted on 07/10/2014 5:47:35 AM PDT by Wolfie
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To: SpeakerToAnimals

No tax on corporations? Why not? They’re “people” too.


29 posted on 07/10/2014 5:49:53 AM PDT by Wolfie
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To: i_robot73

I understand your point about Slavery and Income Tax, and to some extent agree with it.

However, taking the analogy literally requires ignoring the true horror of chattel slavery. Nobody is enslaved by taxation in the USA. Since raising rates generally results primarily in additional legal (and illegal) tax avoidance, nobody is likely to be enslaved in at least the near future.

Let’s assume a person in this country with income of $1M being taxed at some future point at 80% of his earnings. I’d agree that’s way too high.

But it leaves him $200k to live on, which can be done quite well. The guy is overtaxed, not enslaved.


30 posted on 07/10/2014 5:51:59 AM PDT by Sherman Logan (Perception wins all the battles. Reality wins all the wars.)
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To: Wolfie

Because corporations simply add the tax to the price of goods. Only people pay taxes. From the CEO to the janitors.


31 posted on 07/10/2014 6:02:33 AM PDT by SpeakerToAnimals (I hope to earn a name in battle)
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To: Texask9

A poll tax on every man, woman, and child is the only truly “fair” tax. Everyone has an equal opportunity to succeed in this country and should pay the same for that privilege by funding our government equally. Everyone with the same amount of “skin” in the game.


32 posted on 07/10/2014 6:21:01 AM PDT by LambSlave
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To: Texask9
The government has no business even knowing how much money anybody has or earns. Why do they even assume the right to look into our bank accounts and touch our paychecks?

A fair tax is better, it would do much to restore our fourth amendment rights.

Burn all IRS offices to the ground.

33 posted on 07/10/2014 6:24:52 AM PDT by dead (I've got my eye out for Mullah Omar.)
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To: camle
so if you make an income large enough that you spend less a percentage on purchases, then you pay less a percentage taxes that a poor person who must spend more of his income on purchases.

Yes, perfect.

Keep the money out of the hands of government and in the private sector where it can be productive. The rich who don't spend their money invest it or save it in banks which invest it.

Giving it the government feeds tyranny.

34 posted on 07/10/2014 6:27:47 AM PDT by dead (I've got my eye out for Mullah Omar.)
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To: cableguymn
flat tax on all purchases..
lets stop penalizing income.

There's two obvious problems with a national sales tax, even if it starts out as flat:

  1. The exceptions of tax-exempt organizations makes things non-uniform; get rid of taxes on sales and there's a big chunk of implicit extortion that the government cannot engage in.
  2. There will be a push to have different rates on different items, say a %250 tax on firearms, (we already tax alcohol and tobacco additionally) — there could also be a push to alleviate the criticism that this burdens the poor more than the rich and given the ubiquitousness of computational machinery this might be corrected/addressed by having the sales-tax rate applied vary dependent on the income. (…that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.)

35 posted on 07/10/2014 6:35:22 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Sherman Logan

With either fair or flat tax, a large parasitic class in society would have to look for other work, tax accountants, compliance officers, strategists, and the people who set up trusts and offshore corporations and LLCs. None of those would have any value whatsoever if there were just a flat tax or a fair tax. I also prefer the fair tax, preferring to tax consumption rather than productivity, plus addressing the privacy concerns of the income tax.


36 posted on 07/10/2014 6:36:29 AM PDT by coloradan (The US has become a banana republic, except without the bananas - or the republic.)
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To: bt-99
Flat Tax with very low minimum exemptions so everyone has skin in the game.

Flat Tax — No exemptions, no credits, no write-offs, no exceptions.

37 posted on 07/10/2014 6:37:50 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: OneWingedShark

And how do you keep those restrictions on the flat tax?

The income tax has been flattened numerous times, but always the progs get in there and try to punish those with $1 more than they have and unflatten it.


38 posted on 07/10/2014 6:39:39 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: MrB
The income tax has been flattened numerous times, but always the progs get in there and try to punish those with $1 more than they have and unflatten it.

This is not an unsolvable issue; see below.

And how do you keep those restrictions on the flat tax?

With a Constitutional Amendment:

Tax Reform Amendment
Section I
No tax, federal or state, shall ever be withheld from the wages of a worker of any citizen of either.

Section II
No property shall be seized for failure to pay taxes until after conviction in a jury trial; the right of the jury to nullify (and thereby forgive) this debt shall never be questioned or denied.

Section III
The second amendment is hereby recognized as restricting the power of taxation, both federal and state, therefore no tax (or fine) shall be laid upon munitions or the sale thereof.

Section IV
The seventh amendment is also hereby recognized, and nothing in this amendment shall restrict the right of a citizen to seek civil redress.

Section V
No income tax levied by the federal government, the several States, or any subdivision of either shall ever exceed 10%.

Section VI
No income tax levied by the federal government, the several States, or any subdivision of either shall ever apply varying rates to those in its jurisdiction.

Section VII
No retroactive or ex post facto tax (or fee) shall ever be valid.

Section VIII
The congress may not delegate the creation of any tax or fine in any way.

Section IX
No federal employee, representative, senator, judge, justice or agent shall ever be exempt from any tax, fine, or fee by virtue of their position.

Section X
Any federal employee, representative, senator, judge, justice or agent applying, attempting to apply, or otherwise causing the application of an ex post facto, retrospective, or retroactive law shall, upon conviction, be evicted from office and all retirement benefits forfeit.

39 posted on 07/10/2014 6:59:54 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: OneWingedShark

I love section one.

I believe the simplest tax reform could involve just two changes:

Eliminate withholding
Move tax day to Oct 31.

Think about the implications of everyone in the whole country having to write a big check to the government right before election week.


40 posted on 07/10/2014 7:02:55 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: SpeakerToAnimals

But corporations are people too. So says the Supreme Court.


41 posted on 07/10/2014 7:08:23 AM PDT by Wolfie
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To: Sherman Logan
But it leaves him $200k to live on, which can be done quite well. The guy is overtaxed, not enslaved.

Sure, he can live on it. But since he can no longer afford the luxuries with which he's rewarded himself for his hard work, why bother working so hard? Down goes productivity, since it is punished anyway.

42 posted on 07/10/2014 7:08:43 AM PDT by JimRed (Excise the cancer before it kills us; feed & water the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS NOW & FOREVER!)
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To: camle

IMO the fair tax would raise a lot more revenue. Every tourist who comes here from another country on vacation or for business would be paying tax everytime they bought something. All the 11-20 illegals would be paying tax everyday as would the people who run cash only enterprises.


43 posted on 07/10/2014 7:39:02 AM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose o f a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: Georgia Girl 2

it would at least quadruple the size of what we now call the IRS. and it would be more complicated than obamacare. a simple flat tax on ALL income would be much more fair and efficient, and will cost less.

but i’m not gonna argue with the ‘fair-ies’ because they can’t see the facts that stare them in the face. the facts in their own proposal.


44 posted on 07/10/2014 7:42:08 AM PDT by camle (keep an open mind and someone will fill it full of something for you)
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To: camle

“it would at least quadruple the size of what we now call the IRS”

Go online and read John Linder’s plan. Its pretty simple. It takes nowhere near the IRS we have now.


45 posted on 07/10/2014 8:09:28 AM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose o f a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: JimRed

Of course. More likely, actually, is that tax avoidance measure will be taken.

My understanding is that in Europe top executives have MUCH more extensive expense accounts: clothing allowance, housing allowance, entertainment allowance, etc.

Compensation just moves from taxable into non-taxable categories.

Many if not most top earners today are not tied to a specific locality. If they consider themselves overtaxed, they’ll just move somewhere else. And the government involved loses all of their tax.


46 posted on 07/10/2014 8:20:24 AM PDT by Sherman Logan (Perception wins all the battles. Reality wins all the wars.)
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To: Sherman Logan

Taking my analogy literally only involves using the terms defined. Slavery = being controlled by another; to work (forced) for the benefit of someone other than themselves.

I would have little to bark against if taxes were to be paid for those things on which gov’t has every right to be paid FOR: fire, police...I’ll even add roads (but we did fine until the 1920’s w/out gov’t ‘paying’ for roads). The slavery DOES come into play when I/you/we MUST pay for schools, ex-gov’t ‘bennies’, welfare, SS, mediXYZ, foreign aid, Dept. of XYZ.

Lastly, you presume two things: 1) the gent CAN live on $200K/yr (New York, L.A., etc.). Even if he wanted to party all day, buy a McMansion; is his property not his to piss away IF he wanted too?? 2) 80% isn’t ‘enslaved’ per the guy being robbed. I highly doubt ‘overtaxed’ != ‘enslaved’ in his mind.


47 posted on 07/10/2014 9:55:35 AM PDT by i_robot73 (Give me one example and I will show where gov't is the root of the problem(s).)
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To: Texask9
I'll go along with the FAIR tax, as long as there is no prebate nonsense. And as long as the tax is flat, not higher for some items, and lower for others.

The prebate is just another way for the gov't to continue meddling and nudging our behavior this way and that.

There will always be an Internal Revenue Service. The best you can hope for is that they are in your life less in the future than now. But probably not. With a sales tax, the push will continue to eliminate cash transactions so the government can be sure the tax is always paid.

It will be a matter of months after a FAIR tax starts before bills are introduced to lower the tax on medical supplies, or for the IRS to handle tax refunds on health care costs.

The best you can hope for is that government knows what you bought, but the government does not influence what you buy with either carrot or stick.

48 posted on 07/10/2014 11:39:50 AM PDT by slowhandluke (It's hard to be cynical enough in this age.)
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To: from occupied ga

Everyone pays the same, just a glorified sales tax. The bigger the luxury item u purchase the more tax u pay.


49 posted on 07/11/2014 4:15:15 AM PDT by Texask9 (Libertarians for a free Texas, free America!!)
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To: cableguymn

One of the benefits of fair tax!


50 posted on 07/11/2014 4:15:16 AM PDT by Texask9 (Libertarians for a free Texas, free America!!)
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