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Why NYCís push to change school admissions will punish poor Asians
NY Post ^ | July 19, 2014 | Dennis Saffran

Posted on 07/20/2014 4:45:54 AM PDT by BlueStateRightist

In 2004, 7-year-old Ting Shi arrived in New York from China, speaking almost no English. For two years, he shared a bedroom in a Chinatown apartment with his grandparents — a cook and a factory worker — and a young cousin, while his parents put in 12-hour days at a small laundromat they had purchased on the Upper East Side.

Ting mastered English and eventually set his sights on getting into Stuyvesant High School, the crown jewel of New York City’s eight “specialized high schools.”

When he was in sixth grade, he took the subway downtown from his parents’ small apartment to the bustling high school to pick up prep books for its eighth-grade entrance exam. He prepared for the test over the next two years, working through the prep books and taking classes at one of the city’s free tutoring programs. His acceptance into Stuyvesant prompted a day of celebration at the laundromat — an immigrant family’s dream beginning to come true.

(Excerpt) Read more at nypost.com ...


TOPICS: Education; Society
KEYWORDS: asians; immigrants; nyc; schools
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Democrats (Marxists) hate merit-based anything. Objective measures must be racist.
1 posted on 07/20/2014 4:45:55 AM PDT by BlueStateRightist
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To: BlueStateRightist

There are actually QUITE A FEW ASIANS in this country, and I SERIOUSLY DOUBT that many of them are happy about getting pushed aside so that unqualified blacks and Hispanics can take their place.

In a country with a FUNCTIONAL opposition party (i.e., Republicans), these Asians would be looked at as a potential source of a large number of votes. In fact, a FUNCTIONAL opposition party would be doing things to attract these people, like finding some people that speak Asian, getting involved in their organizations, etc.

But we do not have a FUNCTIONAL opposition party - instead we have an opposition party single-focused on destroying the Tea Party. And so the Democrats still own the Asian, strictly due to how they’re perceived on immigration.


2 posted on 07/20/2014 4:56:02 AM PDT by BobL
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To: BlueStateRightist

Indeed. Reading the full article, and looking at the new proposed admissions criteria, it becomes clear: rich whites are being squeezed out by the Asians and that must change.


3 posted on 07/20/2014 4:57:55 AM PDT by Wolfie
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To: BobL

Agreed, this is the problem. The Democrats passionately believe in destructive policies, and the Republicans don’t believe in anything.


4 posted on 07/20/2014 5:15:44 AM PDT by oblomov
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To: BobL

“Extracurricular activities” as a measure of worth for a student are heavily stacked towards the well-off.

Poor Asian kids are far more likely to be studying or working outside school than playing basketball or volunteering.

I find it especially intriguing that there has apparently been zero conservative objection to the considerable Asian displacement of whites in these schools. Putting a serious dent in the complacent assumption by liberals that our devotion to standards and merit is based on racial solidarity.


5 posted on 07/20/2014 5:18:26 AM PDT by Sherman Logan (Perception wins all the battles. Reality wins all the wars.)
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To: BlueStateRightist

If this kid doesn’t get killed going or coming from class he might be ok

I got accepted to all of the NYC “Elite “ schools and saw lots of my classmates at Brooklyn Tech get assaulted and hospitalized by feral “youths “ for their trainpass

I quit and got A GED


6 posted on 07/20/2014 5:22:05 AM PDT by Rome2000
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To: Sherman Logan

When I was there it was about 60% asian

Nobody had a problem with it


7 posted on 07/20/2014 5:25:54 AM PDT by Rome2000
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To: BlueStateRightist

As someone who took that entrance exam many years ago and scored well enough to be accepted to (at that time the three elite schools) Bronx Science, Stuyvesant and Brooklyn Tech, the test is not biased in the least. It was the hardest test I ever took at that time. The testing rooms were filled with Asians who easily represented more than 50% of the applicants. There were also a significant number of jewish students represented. It was considered a great honor to be accepted to these schools. It meant you had a brain in your head. The admissions process is completely color blind. Either you are smart, score well and get admitted or you don’t. Perhaps if blacks and hispanics valued an education as much as the Asians do, their numbers would be better represented in the schools. These schools churn out scientists, inventors, and the most brilliant academics in our country. Let’s just flush that down the toilet because the communist mayor thinks it’s unfair and racist.

The fact that Sheldon Silver is supporting this just reaffirms what a piece of leftist garbage he is. Rich kids went to private school. Really smart kids go to these schools. Nothing to see here, comrade.


8 posted on 07/20/2014 5:27:45 AM PDT by NoKoolAidforMe (I'm clinging to my God and my guns. You can keep the change.)
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To: Sherman Logan

Good point.


9 posted on 07/20/2014 5:28:10 AM PDT by wintertime
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To: BlueStateRightist
NYC’s push to change school admissions will punish poor Asians

It's a feature, not a bug.

10 posted on 07/20/2014 5:29:49 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (This is known as "bad luck". - Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: wintertime

Would also like to point out that poor black and Hispanic kids would likely do poorly on these “holistic” admission criteria, if administered honestly.

Which they won’t be, of course, and the “holistic” criteria in their case will consist primarily of noting their skin color.

If the Mayor gets his way, the schools will develop a de facto quota admission system by race, and their standards and performance will drop dramatically.

BTW, if we need de facto quotas to keep the number of Asians down, why don’t we impose similar standards to keep Jews from getting in above their percentage of the population? Anybody want to venture a guess about what percentage of the “white” students in these schools are Jewish?


11 posted on 07/20/2014 5:34:26 AM PDT by Sherman Logan (Perception wins all the battles. Reality wins all the wars.)
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To: NoKoolAidforMe

Even back then they had to let in a very small number of neighborhood kids who would rob people in the stairs at knifepoint or assault teachers before they got kicked out.

Communists sure do Suck.


12 posted on 07/20/2014 5:35:51 AM PDT by Rome2000
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To: Rome2000

The same thing used to happen at Bronx Science. At least years ago it did. The neighborhood has gotten worse, so I am sure that things are worse than they were. The media, of course, never talks about such things. If an Asian kid gets assaulted, it’s not news. If a black youth gets shot by a white guy, then that’s a news story. Think Treyvon.


13 posted on 07/20/2014 5:39:15 AM PDT by NoKoolAidforMe (I'm clinging to my God and my guns. You can keep the change.)
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To: NoKoolAidforMe
These schools churn out scientists, inventors, and the most brilliant academics in our country
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Can I challenge this assumption?

1) Maybe, these schools have merely delayed their success. What would these young people have accomplished if they ( at a young age) had simply attended a lower ranked college or community college and then gone one to earn a Ph.D or started in the working world 4 years earlier?

2) Maybe, some ( or most) of these young people were successful in spite of their government education. What would these young people have accomplished if they had been homeschooled or tutored? Do you think that resourceful and determined immigrant parents, who valued education, would not have found those in their families and communities who could have tutored their children?

3) Finally, how much is actually learned in a classroom as compared to that which is learned at home due to studying the textbook, working the problems doing the assignments, and attending study clubs? It isn't known because these studies have **never** been done. We spend more on K-12 schooling each year ( federal, state, and local) than we do on the military, yet it is unknown if government schooling works or teaches anything. It is entirely possible that the only thing government brick and mortar schools do is send home a very expensive curriculum for the child to follow in the home.

I ask these questions because my homeschoolers entered community college at the ages of 13, 12, and 13. Two finished B.S. degrees in mathematics by the age of 18. The oldest of these earned a masters in mathematics by the age of 20. The oldest homeschooler earned a masters in accounting at the typical age but was also an internationally and nationally ranked athlete and traveled the world representing the U.S.

14 posted on 07/20/2014 5:45:23 AM PDT by wintertime
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To: NoKoolAidforMe
These schools churn out scientists, inventors, and the most brilliant academics in our country.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It seems that schools get the credit when is very likely that it is the parents ( doing **tons** of afterschooling in the home ) are doing 99.999% of the really hard grunt work..

15 posted on 07/20/2014 5:47:29 AM PDT by wintertime
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To: Sherman Logan

Please read my posts #14 and #15.


16 posted on 07/20/2014 5:51:26 AM PDT by wintertime
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To: NoKoolAidforMe
One more thought came to mind.

Maybe, the success of homeschoolers is normal. Maybe, it is the institutionalized child who is artificially delayed socially and academically.

Is it possible that those children attending the elite schools in N.Y.C are also artificially delayed in their development due to having been institutionalized for their schooling?

17 posted on 07/20/2014 5:55:33 AM PDT by wintertime
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To: Sherman Logan

Anybody want to venture a guess about what percentage of the “white” students in these schools are Jewish?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hm?.....About the same percentage of students who attended the professional school where I earned by doctorate. Let me guess! ....About 95%?


18 posted on 07/20/2014 5:57:48 AM PDT by wintertime
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To: Sherman Logan

I wish FR had an edit option.

“my” instead of “by” and “on” instead of “one”


19 posted on 07/20/2014 5:59:14 AM PDT by wintertime
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To: wintertime

Maybe. But Jews who live in NYC proper are either wealthy or religious or Russian. The wealthy send their few kids to private schools and the religious to religious schools.

That leaves Russian Jews.


20 posted on 07/20/2014 6:05:34 AM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: wintertime

NYC public schools are notoriously lousy in many ways. Teachers pass anyone and everyone, rampant crime, bad behavior, and no accountability or discipline whatsoever. Unless one lives on the Upper East Side, students do not get the attention they should from teachers and the administration, and the emphasis on learning is much less as compared to these eight elite schools. The elite schools emphasize academics. They do not stress sports or clubs. Students who go there are almost guaranteed to get accepted to MIT, Harvard, Stanford, etc. It is a great way for students of modest means to excel. As a student, you are surrounded by other kids who want to learn. These schools even have dress codes, enforce attendance rules, and have PhDs teaching the classes. The atmosphere is equivalent to that of an affluent, suburban school district where the school and home environment are in sync. NYC public schools are just not like that.

Back in the 1970s, as a parochial/private school student, we were often harassed by the “public school kids” who acted like feral animals. It was common to see those kids ripping up and throwing their text books out of the school bus windows, picking fights with the uniform-wearing kids, and getting into trouble with the police. Fast forward to today, and things are far worse than I ever saw. Now these same feral animals just shoot people. Back then, guns were harder to come by. Brass knuckles and switchblades were the rave.


21 posted on 07/20/2014 6:07:34 AM PDT by NoKoolAidforMe (I'm clinging to my God and my guns. You can keep the change.)
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To: Sherman Logan

“I find it especially intriguing that there has apparently been zero conservative objection to the considerable Asian displacement of whites in these schools.”

I’m not sure that I follow that. As far as I know, Asians and whites are held to the same (high) standards. It’s not the fault of Asians if white parents are more interested in having their kids play football than study.


22 posted on 07/20/2014 6:17:54 AM PDT by BobL
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To: wintertime

Agree 100%.

The most highly motivated and intelligent students get into these schools, then we say their attending the schools created their success. Just as we say attending Harvard makes a person successful.

What needs to be done to determine the actual facts would be to randomly split an entering class into these schools (or Harvard) and remove half of them. Then see how much effect school attendance has on their later lives.

Can’t do it, of course, for legal, practical and ethical reasons. But would be quite interesting.

What I suspect is that Harvard takes a large crop of people who would have been very successful in life no matter what, and then takes credit for that success.

Personally, I was never able to attend college, mostly for family reasons. Started in work quite literally in what is generally considered one of the dread dead-end jobs, janitorial.

Worked my way up and out, and am now widely recognized as a national leader in my field. Have been accepted as an expert witness in state and federal courts. People universally assume a college degree and probably graduate degree although I’ve never tried to hide my lack of formal education. When people I work with find out, they are surprised but don’t care, since by then I’ve already demonstrated my competence by the work I do.

Had I gotten the chance to go to Harvard, people would say my success was because I went there.


23 posted on 07/20/2014 6:21:58 AM PDT by Sherman Logan (Perception wins all the battles. Reality wins all the wars.)
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To: BobL

That was my point, no doubt inadequately expressed.

The general liberal POV is that conservative desire to use merit is simply a way of keeping “those people” out of the schools.

But conservatives haven’t, to my knowledge, objected to white students being displaced by Asian students. Remarkably, it’s the liberals who are objecting to whites being displaced by a minority group!

Note: I don’t think it’s at all remarkable. But it would create major cognitive dissonance for liberals if they were able to comprehend it.


24 posted on 07/20/2014 6:25:47 AM PDT by Sherman Logan (Perception wins all the battles. Reality wins all the wars.)
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To: Sherman Logan

You’re right about top colleges succeeding largely because they can attract top students. That is their social and sorting value.

But at the high school level, these exam schools are the only way young scholars can receive a rigorous education. Taking away the objective, merit-based screening for admission would require the classes to be watered down just as they are in the rest of the NYC public school system.


25 posted on 07/20/2014 6:32:26 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: Sherman Logan

On the K-12 level schools take credit for the hard work of the parents and children in the home and then blame the parents for failure.


26 posted on 07/20/2014 6:36:06 AM PDT by wintertime
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To: 9YearLurker
these exam schools are the only way young scholars can receive a rigorous education.

I understand your point, but that's just not true. As many homeschooled kids demonstrate quite conclusively.

27 posted on 07/20/2014 6:36:51 AM PDT by Sherman Logan (Perception wins all the battles. Reality wins all the wars.)
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To: wintertime

Yup.


28 posted on 07/20/2014 6:38:06 AM PDT by Sherman Logan (Perception wins all the battles. Reality wins all the wars.)
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To: BlueStateRightist
"Democrats (Marxists) hate merit-based anything. Objective measures must be racist."

Outstanding post. This is the distilled essence of leftism.

29 posted on 07/20/2014 6:41:11 AM PDT by Truth29
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To: Sherman Logan

I hear you...it is funny how that works.


30 posted on 07/20/2014 6:43:05 AM PDT by BobL
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To: Sherman Logan

True—but that’s not what I was referring to. Many of these kids have dirt-poor, uneducated immigrant parents who don’t speak English. Homeschooling is not a practical option for them.


31 posted on 07/20/2014 6:56:08 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: NoKoolAidforMe

Is there a neighborhood in Brooklyn that is getting worse, rather than better, these days?


32 posted on 07/20/2014 6:57:06 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: BobL; Sherman Logan

Agreed. What possibly is the conservative argument against meritorious Asian students taking seats at the most rigorous public schools?


33 posted on 07/20/2014 6:58:34 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: BlueStateRightist

By Asians, they mean Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Korean, and others with a strong work ethic and high intelligence.

Those people are not going to become part of a victim group, so the left treats them like dirt.


34 posted on 07/20/2014 7:09:33 AM PDT by I want the USA back (Media: completely irresponsible. Complicit in the destruction of this country.)
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To: 9YearLurker

Homeschooling for me was not an option for all those reasons, except the English factor. Still I got into and graduated from a “Big Ten” school, partly because of the fine, merit based high school my parents moved near.


35 posted on 07/20/2014 7:27:47 AM PDT by Ace's Dad (Proud grandpa of a newly born "Brit Chick" named Poppy Loucks!)
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To: Ace's Dad

Congrats—to you and your parents.


36 posted on 07/20/2014 7:32:25 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: wintertime

If I might ask, what is the one with a Master’s in math doing now?

Home schooling is a great option for much of the country, but really not for these kids from poor immigrant families, many of which are working crazy hours in low-wage jobs and businesses to support their kids in crowded conditions.


37 posted on 07/20/2014 7:35:59 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: BlueStateRightist

One rational way may be, instead of quotas, to expand the programs (very expensive, I realize) where the ones who “just missed” could get in. This happened to me. Our Physics instructor expanded his class to accept myself and a female student into a his very highly competitive senior physics class. I credit this and some of the college science classes I attended with my success as a technical writer.


38 posted on 07/20/2014 7:54:29 AM PDT by Ace's Dad (Proud grandpa of a newly born "Brit Chick" named Poppy Loucks!)
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To: BlueStateRightist

Unbelievable.

Everyone is okay with foreigners bringing their freakazoid Sunday to Sunday study grind system to the United States. No childhood. No trick or treating. No football. No prom. Hey, that’s how they want to live. Land of the free and all.

What you don’t consider is that they are IMPOSING A FOREIGN WAY OF LIFE ON AMERICANS. If you want your kid to attend a school YOUR taxes built and paid for, you don’t get to opt out of the brutal new regimen.

American kids — your kids — have no chance to get a slot in an American school because sane parents don’t want their kids to live the brutal, miserable lives the Chinese schooling system demands.

There is something very wrong with this picture. And we’re afraid to say so because we don’t want to be called raaaaaaaaacist.

“Oh, it’s just competition.” No, it isn’t. It’s gaming the system. It’s exactly like athletes who take steroids to get ANY edge. Automatons who never learned to ride a bike aren’t “smarter” than a girl who spends precious study time on the cheerleading squad. Why is she being punished for living an American life in her own country?


39 posted on 07/20/2014 8:43:32 AM PDT by Blue Ink
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To: 9YearLurker

Actually, there are a few areas that 20-30 years ago were sh!tholes and have been gentrified as the yuppies have been driven out of Manhattan because the island is way too costly to live in. Fort Greene and the area near the Navy Yard come to mind. I grew up in the Bronx. There are absolutely no neighborhoods there that have gotten better. It is a destroyed borough and will never recover. So sad because my neighborhood was a nice place to live in at one point. Never needed a car. All your needs were within walking distance. Rents were decent. And living in a pre-war art deco apartment building with a sunken living room and 12’ ceilings and oak parquet floors with walnut inlays was the bomb.

Manhattan is and always will be what it is. But if Mayor Comrade gets his way, Park Avenue better watch out because he’ll put Section 8 housing wherever he can.


40 posted on 07/20/2014 9:21:16 AM PDT by NoKoolAidforMe (I'm clinging to my God and my guns. You can keep the change.)
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To: 9YearLurker
Re: Immigrant Families with academically successful kids

What makes you think that they aren't homeschooling now? ( afterschooling)

My anecdotal observation:

Those Spanish speaking immigrant families who afterschool their kids have academically successful children. Those who don't, have kids that are semi-literate and innumerate.

The **middle class** Anglo parents of the children who are afterschool have academically successful kids. Those who don't, have kids that are semi-literate and innumerate.

My conclusion:

Not much is learned in a government brick and mortar school. Of course, studies have never been done to determine where learning actually happens ( home or schools) and who is doing the teaching ( parent, the child himself, or a institutional teacher).

How did I come to this conclusion:

My husband and I were asked to join the local Spanish speaking congregation of our denomination. We both speak Spanish. We have been there 6 years. Our first job was to start a cub scout program for the Spanish speaking children. Three years later this troop was combined with an Anglo troop. We now teach each week in the children's Sunday School that is a combination of both Anglo and Latino kids.

And....Having know several thousand families and their children as a health provider in my clinic.

Think about this! We spent up to $25,000/kid/ year and no one has ever thought to study whether or not children actually learn anything in these brick and mortar government schools.

41 posted on 07/20/2014 9:21:57 AM PDT by wintertime
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To: 9YearLurker
When parents say to me, “I don't think I can homeschool”, I laugh.

My response:

You **will** homeschool whether or not your child is institutionalized for his schooling or not. You will if you have any hope of having a child who can read, do basic math, be a self-learner, and excel academically. You will do **everything** my husband and I did as homeschooling parents. **Everything**!

42 posted on 07/20/2014 9:25:32 AM PDT by wintertime
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To: BlueStateRightist

Democrats (Marxists) hate merit-based anything. Objective measures must be racist.

Dems and GOPe hate anyone who won’t tolerate and vote for a corrupt government.


43 posted on 07/20/2014 9:30:16 AM PDT by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: NoKoolAidforMe

You’re right about De Blasio!

And no, I imagine Brooklyn isn’t going back to what it was before the ‘60s. But even Bed-Stuy is fast gentrifying right now. I think Brownsville may be the last outpost to gentrify, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it’s started there, too.


44 posted on 07/20/2014 11:08:10 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: NoKoolAidforMe

Oh, and no car needed for lots of areas in Brooklyn now, and still some very nice housing stock to be brought back—though a lot of the original features need to be replaced.


45 posted on 07/20/2014 11:09:30 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: wintertime

Again, you’re taking the English language and your level of education for granted. Also, the ability to have someone home for the day for the kids. I suspect you don’t quite realize how extreme some of these immigrant family situations are.


46 posted on 07/20/2014 11:11:08 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: wintertime

Oh, and I agree about even uneducated, non-English-speaking parents being able to find resources and after-hours study for their children. That’s a big part of their success.

Many upper-middle-class parents have smart enough kids with ‘good enough’ schools in the ‘burbs and wherever, however, so they can succeed without parental involvement.


47 posted on 07/20/2014 11:14:01 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: Blue Ink

Speak for yourself. I’m white trash and if I ever have a kid that’s EXACTLY what I want for them, so they can have the opportunities in life everyone told me were “for others”.


48 posted on 07/20/2014 11:43:52 AM PDT by Fire_on_High (RIP City of Heroes and Paragon Studios, victim of the Obamaconomy.)
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To: BlueStateRightist

The phrase used in medical school admissions is “Over-represented minority” Therefore, Asians must have higher GPAs and higher MCAT’s than whites - and outstandingly higher scores than blacks and hispanics, just to get an interview.


49 posted on 07/20/2014 11:50:06 AM PDT by SoftballMominVA
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To: Blue Ink

Wow. I have never, ever thought of it that way. I think u brought up a great point. Thanks for sharing that very different thought.


50 posted on 07/20/2014 12:05:06 PM PDT by angelrod
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