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Why Didn't Anyone Kill Hitler?
History News Network ^ | July 19, 2014 | Daniel Mandel

Posted on 07/20/2014 10:25:50 AM PDT by WXRGina

This week marks the 70th anniversary of a plot whose success might well have spared millions of lives, while claiming that of history’s most infamous mass-murderer, Adolf Hitler.

The elaborate conspiracy centered on Claus von Stauffenberg was the most well-prepared and organized attempt to put an end to Hitler, but it was scarcely the first. The number of serious attempts on Hitler’s life would fill a book and indeed have; Roger Moorhouse’s Killing Hitler (2006), for example, covers the ground of several such attempts from the moment Hitler came to power in 1933, at which time his security detail was remarkably small and haphazard. Early, amateurish attempts, however, put him on his guard and before the Second World War had begun, Hitler never moved anywhere without a phalanx of security. Weaknesses in his security were nonetheless identified and exploited by attempted assassins –– yet fortune favored Hitler.

Thus, one of the most remarkable attempts on Hitler’s life was carried out in November 1939, just weeks into the Second World War. The idea was brilliantly conceived, painstakingly prepared, carried into execution and ought to have succeeded but, because it failed, its author is largely forgotten today. Johann Georg Elser, a carpenter from a humble family of lumber traders, had decided Hitler was a menace to Germany and the world who had to be eliminated. He conceived his plan the previous November in Munich, watching commemorations of Hitler’s abortive Beer Hall Putsch of 1923. This event was a fixture of the Nazi calendar and thus followed a fixed, ceremonial pattern which included Hitler delivering an address in the Bürgerbräukeller.

Elser planned to kill Hitler at the next commemoration during his speech. In the course of the next twelve months, Elserstole gunpowder, obtained a job which gave him access to explosives and detonators, and taught himself the rudiments of their use. He dined nightly at the Bürgerbräukeller, secreting himself upstairs when it closed, and set to work by night, hollowing out a cavity in the pillar beside the dais used by Hitler each year in order to [install] a bomb inside it. Elserin geniously modified a clock to enable him to have a timer that could be set 144 hours in advance, and lined the cavity with cork to conceal the sound of its ticking, before sealing the cavity and sedulously concealing all evidence of his work. He timed the bomb to detonate at 9.20 PM on November 8, 1939, in the middle of Hitler’s speech.

Elser’s bomb worked perfectly, exploding punctually and bringing down the gallery supported by the detonated pillar on the appointed date at 9.20 PM –– except Hitler had altered his schedule, shortened his speech, delivered it early and thus departed the scene 13 minutes earlier. Taken in for questioning at the Swiss border while seeking to cross it, Elser’s possessions were self-incriminating and under interrogation he eventually confessed all. He was kept as a special prisoner until April 1945 when, in the dying days of the war, he was murdered along with other special prisoners warehoused by the Third Reich.

Elser’s attempt was not bettered for nearly the rest of the war. In June 1942 the Polish underground attempted to attack Hitler’s personal train but ended up derailing another. The Soviet leader Josef Stalin sought to assassinate Hitler but, by 1943, as Germany began losing the war, gave up the idea as counter-productive: Hitler’s death might lead to a better-led German war machine or a separate peace with the West. So it fell to the anti-Nazi senior German officers to take matters into their own hands, initially led by General Henning von Tresckow, chief of operations for Army Group Center on the eastern front.

Tresckow was the core of an expanding coterie of officers who had either been repelled by Germany’s paganistic and barbarous turn under Hitler or else had revised their earlier acceptance of it, the more so as Germany’s catastrophic military defeat now loomed. Tresckow did not accept that Germany’s impending defeat obviated the necessity to act against Hitler; millions more innocents would yet die if the war was allowed to take its course. He thought it imperative that decent Germans do what they could to end Hitler and with him the war. A plan for a coup took shape and a clandestine, anti-Nazi cabinet-in-waiting was formed to assume the reins of power when the moment came.

All that remained was to devise the means to dispose of Hitler. Hitler was perpetually secreted in high-security locales; only his lair at Berchtesgarden was relatively lightly guarded and this locale presented obstacles of its own. As to method, poison was out of the question, as all his food was pre-tasted by his doctor, while no-one could usually enter Hitler’s entourage carrying a firearm. The only practicable way to kill Hitler, therefore, was to penetrate the inner circle of the regime and kill him –– and preferably the other most senior Nazi officials, like Himmler and Goebbels –– with a bomb.

Tresckow made two attempts. On the first occasion, in March 1943, he arranged for British-made plastic explosives to be camouflaged in a bottle of Cointreau and placed with Hitler’s luggage on the Fuhrer’s plane, but the bomb failed to detonate; whether the fuse was defective or the extreme cold in the plane occasioned by a malfunctioning heater prevented the bomb from exploding has never been determined. A week later, another conspirator, a senior intelligence officer, Rudolf-Christoph von Gersdorff, volunteered to become a suicide bomber. With explosives placed on his person and equipped with ten-minute fuses, the plan was for him to set the fuses when accompanying Hitler on a scheduled tour of captured Soviet weaponry during the annual Heroes’s Day celebrations in Berlin. But Hitler, due to stay for half an hour, was distracted by who knows what and left after two minutes; Gersdorff had no choice but to beat a hasty path to a lavatory to secretly defuse the bombs. Yet again, luck had saved Hitler. A few months later, in October 1943, Tresckowlost his access to Hitler when he was appointed Chief of Staff to the Second Army and was thus off the scene in the east. His task thereupon devolved upon Claus von Stauffenberg, another aristocratic officer who had been inducted into the conspiracy only months earlier.

Some controversy has surrounded his motives, but the balance of evidence suggests that Stauffenberg’s deep patriotism went hand-in-hand with a strong moral conscience fostered by his devout Catholic upbringing. The potential dissonance between the two had first emerged during Kristallnacht, the Nazi-orchestrated nationwide pogrom against Germany’s Jews on the night of November 9, 1938. His growing revulsion for Nazism had not yet attenuated his sense of duty to his commander-in-chief; he learned of anti-Hitler conspiracies the following year and thought to report the ringleaders, but decided against it. Stauffenberg’s service on the eastern front during 1941-3, however, made him witness to German atrocities; an eyewitness account of one massacre of Jews in the Ukraine that he received in May 1942 might have been a turning point. Revolted, he saw no other outlet at this stage other to seek a transfer, which took him to Field Marshal Erwin Rommel’s Afrika Korps, now driven back to Tunisia from Egypt by ascendant Allied forces. There, in April 1943, Stauffenberg was severely wounded in action, losing his left eye, his right hand and all but the thumb, index and middle fingers of his left hand. A long convalescence in Munich brought him into contact with Tresckow and the other officers involved in the anti-Hitler conspiracy.

Stauffenberg could have been invalided out of active service and turned his back on the developing conspiracy. Instead, he returned to duty and rapidly took charge of it. He believed he had been spared for a providential reason and he was a determined man; even with now only one hand, he often insisted on dressing himself and tying his own shoelaces unaided. With his appointment to the Reserve Army in Berlin, he became perfectly placed to advance Tresckow’s assassination and coup plan: to him fell the task of updating Operation Valkyrie, a Hitler-approved emergency plan for deploying Wehrmacht forces at the word of the German High Command to secure the capital in the event on internal revolt or unrest. Stauffenberg altered the plan, its trigger being now the assassination of Hitler.

The lack of an officer with access to Hitler seemed filled when Stauffenberg recruited still another aristocratic officer, Axel von dem Bussche. Bussche was a man of similarly deep conviction and sense of purpose and he agreed to sacrifice himself by arming himself with a bomb and detonating it when he would have an opportunity to embrace Hitler at a formal inspection of the new eastern front winter uniforms at the Wolf’s Lair (Wolfschanze), Hitler’s headquarters in east Prussia. But the new uniform consignment went up in smoke the night before in a British air raid the inspection was postponed and Bussche returned to the front. Before the inspection was rescheduled, Bussche was badly wounded in combat, losing a leg, and was laid up for the rest of the war.

Another of Stauffenberg’s recruits, Captain Ewald von Kleist, volunteered to do the deed when the inspection was rescheduled in February 1944, but Hitler then cancelled the event altogether . Another officer, Captain Eberhard von Breitenbuch, who offered his services to Tresckow in March 1944, soon had what appeared to be his chance when he accompanied his superior, Field Marshal von Busch, to a meeting with Hitler at Berchtesgarden. Breitenbusch, deciding to shoot Hitler with a concealed pistol, arrived at the anteroom with his weapon undetected –– but, at the last minute, he was not admitted to the conference room, being only a junior aide. Hitler again had been saved and the conspirators frustrated.

But then a new door opened: on June 20, Stauffenberg was promoted to full colonel and appointed chief-of-staff to General Friedrich Fromm, commander of the Berlin-based Home Army. Stauffenberg’s duties included reporting to Hitler; thus, out of the blue, the chief conspirator himself had suddenly obtained the vital, regular access to the Führer. They had met for the first time two weeks earlier, on June 7, the day after the D-Day invasion of Normandy. Hitler had greeted the decorated and maimed war hero warmly; Stauffenberg withstood the test of having to peer into Hitler’s eerie, penetrating eyes. Far from being mesmerized, he found a void –– “Nothing! ... as if veiled” he later said.

Stauffenberg soon determined that he would have to do the deed himself. No one else seemed up to the task; not co-conspirator, General Helmuth Stieff, who lost had his nerve about carrying in and placing a suitcase containing explosives in one of Hitler’s staff meetings. This changed matters. Stauffenberg’s original intended role had been to orchestrate the coup in Berlin following the assassination and to convince army heads to arrest the Nazi apparatus. This vital role now had to be devolved to others. No one could have guessed the baleful consequences of this development.

Stauffenberg’s first attempt came at Berchtesgarden on July 11, when he brought the British-made explosives and pencil fuses to a meeting with Hitler. But, fatefully, Stieff persuaded him to postpone the attempt, as Himmler was absent, so the opportunity was lost.

Stauffenberg made a second attempt on July 15 when attending a staff meeting at the Wolf’s Lair. Preparatory orders for Valkyrie had been issued that morning. No one knows for certain why Stauffenberg did not proceed with the attempt. Whether he lacked the opportunity to set the fuses, whether the attempt was aborted because Goering and Himmler were absent, we are unlikely to ever know. The Valkyrie orders had to be rescinded and the troop movements explained away as a drill; the sort of excuse that can be proffered only once.

Time was running out for the conspirators: two of its members had already been arrested by the Gestapo and could be expected to crack under torture before long and reveal other members. Stauffenberg was keenly aware of the enveloping danger and knew that, on the next occasion, he must not fail. That occasion arrived on July 20, when he again attended a staff meeting at the Wolf’s Lair.

The meeting proceeded, not in the usual cavernous confines of the underground concrete bunker, where the force of the explosion would be greatly multiplied, but in an outdoor wood-and-fiberglass briefing room. Nonetheless, the two plastic explosives concealed by Stauffenberg in his briefcase should have been ample for the job.

During the meeting, Stauffenberg excused himself on the pretext of needing to freshen up and change his shirt. Assisted by his adjutant, Lieutenant Werner von Haeften, the three-fingered Stauffenberg put the bombs together behind closed door in an officer’s room, but had only set the fuses for one of these when they were interrupted and Stauffenberg forced to return instantly to the meeting. Thus he returned to the briefing room with only one bomb in his case, primed to explode in ten minutes.

Seated routinely next to Hitler on the pretext of being still somewhat deaf from his injuries in Tunisia, Stauffenberg placed the case only a few feet from Hitler, then left to supposedly make an urgent phone call. This was nothing irregular in meetings of this kind and no suspicions were aroused. Minutes later, the bomb exploded. Stauffenberg witnessed it from a distance and, confident that he had finally succeeded, left in the resultant confusion and boarded his plane back to Berlin to assume command of the coup.

But it had all gone wrong. Before exploding, the briefcase had been moved to the other end of the heavy conference table, behind a thick base affording Hitler some protection. In the explosion, one participant was killed, three more mortally wounded, but Hitler and the rest, though injured in varying degrees, were alive and would survive.

Stauffenberg arrived two hours later in Berlin. Finding no one awaiting him at the airfield, he made his own way to Home Army command, only to find that his co-conspirators had been largely paralyzed by indecision in the absence of definite news from the Wolf’s Lair. The troops had been called out to surround various organs of the state, but otherwise little had been done; the telephone exchanges and radio headquarters had not been seized. Thus, the Nazi hierarchy was able to communicate the news that Hitler was alive and not seriously injured, though Stauffenberg refused to believe it. But it was over. Stauffenberg’s directives were exposed as a coup and countermanded and the conspiracy melted away into impotence. Goebbels, surrounded in the Propaganda Ministry by troops called out by the Valkyrie order, summoned their commander, Major Otto Remer, who thought he was carrying out the Führer’s command, only to be disabused by Hitler’s voice on the end of the telephone Goebbels handed him.

Stauffenberg and his cohorts were surrounded and captured after a brief shoot-out in the Home Army headquarters. His superior and co-conspirator, General Fromm, thereupon arrested Stauffenberg, who had been wounded in the shoulder during the shoot-out, and the others. In a bid to cover his own tracks, Fromm had them shot by firing squad in the early hours of the following morning, though this deed failed to save him from arrest, trial and eventual execution. Staufffenberg’s adjutant Hauften threw himself in front of the bullets intended for Stauffenberg, who was simply shot seconds later. Other conspirators were less fortunate: after conviction in show trials, some 200 were done to death by slow strangulation in Berlin’s Plötzensee prison and thousands more were also killed or dispatched to concentration camps.

The news of the attempt by Stauffenberg and the other German officers stunned and heartened people across Europe. Anne Frank, living for two years in hiding with her family in Amsterdam, wrote in her diary, “I’m finally getting optimistic. Now, at last, things are going well! They really are!” (It was her penultimate diary entry. Two weeks later, her family’s hiding place was discovered and she was deported to her eventual death at Bergen-Belsen).

Stauffenberg’s failure meant that the war in Europe lasted nine further months, with millions of lives lost. Germany itself suffered the worst of its losses; of Germany’s 7.4 million dead in the Second World War, some 4-5 million lost their lives in the last six months. Thus, did a concatenation of chances on occasion after occasion –– personalities, changed circumstances, poor choices, indecision, bad luck –– determine the lives and deaths of millions.


TOPICS: History; Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: germany; hitler; leftism; nazism; rightism; wwii
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1 posted on 07/20/2014 10:25:50 AM PDT by WXRGina
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To: WXRGina

Uh, why didn’t anyone kill Stalin or Mao?

Both were equally culpable.

Ask any Ukrainian about Stalin.


2 posted on 07/20/2014 10:36:19 AM PDT by x1stcav (Leftism is like rust. It corrodes twenty-four hous a day.)
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To: WXRGina

No one can see the future, so tyrants usually aren’t killed until the high-sounding rhetoric of change and hope turns into round up and imprison. By then, its too late. But the alternative of assassinating every leader who is leaning towards tyranny is even worse. Humans desperately want to have faith in their leaders and the bad ones exploit that desire.


3 posted on 07/20/2014 10:36:58 AM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyranni)
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To: x1stcav

Now that I’ve thought about it, I’m not certain Is history’s most infamous mass murderer.

I think that distinction belongs to Stalin and Mao.

Rock on dirt-bag lefties.


4 posted on 07/20/2014 10:39:02 AM PDT by x1stcav (Leftism is like rust. It corrodes twenty-four hous a day.)
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To: WXRGina
Nice article Gina and a good question 'what if '.

My guess would be this : "Hitler’s death might lead to a better-led German war machine"

5 posted on 07/20/2014 10:39:45 AM PDT by virgil283 (When attacked by clowns go for the juggler)
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To: x1stcav

The Guinness Book of records lists Mao as the greatest murderer.


6 posted on 07/20/2014 10:41:46 AM PDT by yarddog (Romans 8: verses 38 and 39. "For I am persuaded".)
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To: yarddog

THX.

Mao, Stalin, Hitler. Leftists all.

(Can anyone name the last right-wing mass murderer?)(Didn’t think so.)


7 posted on 07/20/2014 10:43:56 AM PDT by x1stcav (Leftism is like rust. It corrodes twenty-four hous a day.)
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To: x1stcav

If you’re looking at percentages of a population killed, Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge was no slouch.


8 posted on 07/20/2014 10:46:02 AM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin.)
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To: x1stcav

How do you know they weren’t killed?


9 posted on 07/20/2014 10:47:29 AM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: x1stcav

Speculation is that indeed Beria poisoned Stalin when he caught wind that Stalin was about to purge the entire Politburo.


10 posted on 07/20/2014 10:49:43 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: x1stcav
Uh, why didn’t anyone kill Stalin or Mao? Both were equally culpable. Ask any Ukrainian about Stalin.

Yes, of course. But, if you noticed, this was written on the occasion of the 70th anniversary of the failed von Stauffenberg plot.

11 posted on 07/20/2014 10:50:57 AM PDT by WXRGina (The Founding Fathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: WXRGina

Someone did kill Hitler . . . Hitler did it.


12 posted on 07/20/2014 10:51:05 AM PDT by Pilgrim's Progress (http://www.baptistbiblebelievers.com/BYTOPICS/tabid/335/Default.aspx)
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To: logitech

Good history column PING.


13 posted on 07/20/2014 10:51:17 AM PDT by WXRGina (The Founding Fathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: virgil283
My guess would be this : "Hitler’s death might lead to a better-led German war machine"

That was a very good, very interesting point, one not many would consider.

14 posted on 07/20/2014 10:53:06 AM PDT by WXRGina (The Founding Fathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: Bryanw92

No one can see the future. Yes, people can see the future but the sheeple don’t listen.


15 posted on 07/20/2014 10:53:53 AM PDT by bmwcyle (People who do not study history are destine to believe really ignorant statements.)
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To: nickcarraway

An excellent point and one I hadn’t considered.

For all we know, Emmanuel Goldstien is still alive.


16 posted on 07/20/2014 10:54:53 AM PDT by x1stcav (Leftism is like rust. It corrodes twenty-four hous a day.)
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To: x1stcav

I don’t think we really wanted to take Hitler out. Look at the bonehead rookie mistakes he made when he took command away from his generals and personally took command of his armies. I think the Allies were afraid that this corporal would be replaced by someone who actually knew what they was doing...


17 posted on 07/20/2014 10:56:56 AM PDT by Chinito (6990th Security Group, RC-135/Combat Apple, RVN Class of '68)
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To: WXRGina

18 posted on 07/20/2014 10:59:16 AM PDT by Veggie Todd (The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. TJ)
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To: WXRGina
Elser’s bomb worked perfectly, exploding punctually and bringing down the gallery supported by the detonated pillar on the appointed date at 9.20 PM –– except Hitler had altered his schedule, shortened his speech, delivered it early and thus departed the scene 13 minutes earlier.

Synchronization is important. How to do it right.

19 posted on 07/20/2014 10:59:30 AM PDT by cynwoody
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To: x1stcav
Can anyone name the last right-wing mass murderer?

As always, depends on your definitions.

If you use the most common definition in America, right-wing as referring to those defending the traditional American conservatives values as expressed in the Declaration of Independence and Constitution, then the answer is none. With the probable exception of the arguable genocide committed against the Indians in the 19th century.

If you use the European definition of right-wing, then there are a bunch of contenders.

Here's an excellent resource for body counts over the centuries.

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/MURDER.HTM

I would argue that Hitler was indeed a right-wing mass murderer, as were his imitators in Croatia, Romania and elsewhere.

Nazism was a peculiar combination of generally leftist economics (never fully implemented, thought they might have been after the war, had they won) and Euro-type right-wing blood and soil social policies.

The reason I'd say his killings nevertheless qualify as right-wing is that they were almost all committed for reasons related to the Nazis' right-wing policies, not their left-wing ones.

I hasten to add there is very nearly zero correspondence between European style right-wingery, based on church and crown, blood and soil; and the American version.

In fact, I think the term right-wing doesn't properly apply to American conservatism, which upholds what is still the most radical revolution in human history. But it's a hopeless battle to try to correct the terminology at this point.

20 posted on 07/20/2014 11:01:07 AM PDT by Sherman Logan (Perception wins all the battles. Reality wins all the wars.)
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To: dfwgator

The interesting story about how Beria was infamous for his pathetic kowtowing to Stalin, but hated Stalin. The story is that, while Stalin was in the process of dying, Beria was essentially berating the Big Dude. But Stalin awoke, and Beria faded before him, whining and crying. Pathetic. Two men who had no character.


21 posted on 07/20/2014 11:02:36 AM PDT by righttackle44 (Take scalps. Leave the bodies as a warning./)
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To: Chinito

Another provocative proposition. However, I have such scant regard for the clowns running the show now that perhaps I’m too ready to, too easily dismiss the abilities of the generations back to assess such a sophisticated approach.

They certainly seemed to have a more serious approach to matters.


22 posted on 07/20/2014 11:02:58 AM PDT by x1stcav (Leftism is like rust. It corrodes twenty-four hous a day.)
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To: Pilgrim's Progress
Someone did kill Hitler . . . Hitler did it.

Did you see this? Wow. Hunting Hitler: New Scientific Evidence That Hitler Escaped Nazi Germany [Hardcover]

I bought it but haven't gotten very far into it yet. Pretty fascinating stuff, though.

23 posted on 07/20/2014 11:03:45 AM PDT by WXRGina (The Founding Fathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: Veggie Todd
Quit comparing me to Obama.

It's interesting that you brought the supreme insult to Hitler. It made me laugh a long time. Good one.
24 posted on 07/20/2014 11:04:51 AM PDT by righttackle44 (Take scalps. Leave the bodies as a warning./)
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To: x1stcav
"...Now that I’ve thought about it, I’m not certain Is history’s most infamous mass murderer. I think that distinction belongs to Stalin and Mao....."

The Romans' dispatch of Carthage belongs somewhere in this mix.

25 posted on 07/20/2014 11:07:46 AM PDT by Victor (If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert." -David Ben-Gurion, the first Prime Minister)
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To: WXRGina
When you come right down to it, very few people have the balls to trade their lives for what they believe is right. Sure, people voluntarily join the armed forces and face the possibility of what turns out to be mostly accidental death, but the guy who has an attack of conscience and walks up to a tyrant and puts a bullet in his brain is almost certainly going to be made an example of by said tyrant's most fanatical cronies. Takes balls of steel to do what you know is right knowing full well you will not be around for the beneficial effects of your act. What you need is a critical mass of enough like minded individuals in the right positions (see what happened to Ceaucescu), but this is difficult to establish without getting killed in the process. It's why the Castros still plague Cuba, for example.
26 posted on 07/20/2014 11:08:13 AM PDT by Trod Upon (Every penny given to film and TV media companies goes right into enemy coffers. Starve them out!)
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To: WXRGina
Better question: Why didn't anyone kill Karl Marx?

The existence of such tyrants and the decline of civilization can both be laid at his feet.

27 posted on 07/20/2014 11:11:15 AM PDT by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both.)
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To: righttackle44

Yes, that was portrayed in the HBO movie “Stalin” with Robert Duval playing Stalin.


28 posted on 07/20/2014 11:12:05 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Trod Upon

Yep!


29 posted on 07/20/2014 11:13:20 AM PDT by WXRGina (The Founding Fathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: bmwcyle

>>No one can see the future. Yes, people can see the future but the sheeple don’t listen.

You can forecast and predict the future based on analysis. You can’t see it. Would you shoot a person based on the analysis of a trend? Ever see “Minority Report”? Even if you could see future crimes, what would you do about it? How many would claim that gift and abuse it?


30 posted on 07/20/2014 11:14:11 AM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyranni)
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To: nickcarraway

Stalin had a stroke and they didn’t allow the doctors to help him for hours. By then it was to late to help him.


31 posted on 07/20/2014 11:18:59 AM PDT by laplata (Liberals don't get it .... their minds are diseased.)
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To: virgil283

I had a discussion a few years ago with a military history professor at West Point. His position was that the Allies did not defeat the Wehrmacht. Hitler did. He ran it into the ground and had them chasing boondoggles.


32 posted on 07/20/2014 11:21:13 AM PDT by Fred Hayek (The Democratic Party is now the operational arm of the CPUSA)
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To: WXRGina
Interesting that during WW-I a British soldier allegedly had Pvt. Hitler in his sights and did not fire.
33 posted on 07/20/2014 11:22:49 AM PDT by The Great RJ
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To: cripplecreek

I would put Rachel Carson in the running. 100 million dead is a pretty tall bar.


34 posted on 07/20/2014 11:23:22 AM PDT by Wingy
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To: Sherman Logan
I like your differentiation of right wing and left wing

"I think the term right-wing doesn't properly apply to American conservatism"

I chafe when conservatives are lumped together with Hitler/ Mussolini.

35 posted on 07/20/2014 11:24:59 AM PDT by virgil283 (When attacked by clowns go for the juggler)
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To: Fred Hayek
"the Allies did not defeat the Wehrmacht. Hitler did"

It is quite sobering to think if the Nazi's had developed ICBMs and jet bombers instead of chasing around Der Fuhrers hair-brained flights of fantasies....

36 posted on 07/20/2014 11:29:58 AM PDT by virgil283 (When attacked by clowns go for the juggler)
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To: WXRGina

Very few people actually want freedom. What most people want is one or another level of being able to indulge in their own tyranny. That’s why tyrants rise in the first place, promising (usually in openly-secret code words) exactly that to their followers.

So the brutal fact is that the only real difference between any factions, even in the US, is the acceptable level of tyranny and the acceptable cover story. Usually these issues are tempered by a sense of self-preservation, along the lines of any parasite’s need to keep its host too weak to fight back, but still strong enough to not die (and thus end the food feast).

However as this is not a precise science, and as parasites trend to get drunk on their successes, successful collectivist ventures tend to end in total war. Which of course is why it is in big business’s interest to nurture collectivist catastrophes, for as Rhett Butler observed to Scarlett, the two times to make big money is when everything is collapsing, and when everything is being built back up out of the ashes. Which is also why American liberals are at their most absurd when they are hating corporate capitalism, since it is the abiding fuel for their very existence.


37 posted on 07/20/2014 11:37:35 AM PDT by Talisker (One who commands, must obey.)
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To: Sherman Logan
"In fact, I think the term right-wing doesn't properly apply to American conservatism, which upholds what is still the most radical revolution in human history. "

Russell Kirk disagreed completely with that view.

Kirk's view is that the American Revolution was a profoundly conservative struggle. The American colonials were defending their rights as Englishmen against a king who was violating them repeatedly.

38 posted on 07/20/2014 11:40:54 AM PDT by Pelham (California, what happens when you won't deport illegals)
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To: WXRGina
Why Didn't Anyone Kill Hitler?
Why didn't God stop him - or stop Mao - or Stalin - or Pol Pot, etc?
39 posted on 07/20/2014 11:42:39 AM PDT by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: Bryanw92

Men do see the future but people like you do not believe them. You made my point.


40 posted on 07/20/2014 11:49:01 AM PDT by bmwcyle (People who do not study history are destine to believe really ignorant statements.)
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To: Pelham
The American colonials were defending their rights as Englishmen against a king who was violating them repeatedly.

Partly true, but those English rights still were subservient to the king. American political theory broke with that by inverting the relationship of power completely through the doctrine of negative rights, which served to intrinsically negate royal sovereignty altogether.

41 posted on 07/20/2014 11:49:15 AM PDT by Talisker (One who commands, must obey.)
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To: WXRGina
this is astounding ....

Germany itself suffered the worst of its losses; of Germany’s 7.4 million dead in the Second World War, some 4-5 million lost their lives in the last six months.
42 posted on 07/20/2014 11:49:49 AM PDT by stylin19a (Obama ----> Fredo smart)
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To: WXRGina

It was probably better that Hitler wasn’t killed, he was such an incompetent military strategist. The one who was killed, and had he lived might have actually lead the third reich to victory, was Reinhard Heydrich. He was a brilliant and evil man who was considered the next ruler of the third reich but fortunately was assassinated by a British trained team of Czechs. I highly recommend the book, Hitler’s Hangman, for a great read on Heydrich.


43 posted on 07/20/2014 11:52:04 AM PDT by angelrod
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To: oh8eleven
Why didn't God stop him - or stop Mao - or Stalin - or Pol Pot, etc?

He did. Where are they now? How many Divisions do they have?

44 posted on 07/20/2014 11:59:26 AM PDT by MuttTheHoople (Ob)
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To: virgil283
I chafe when conservatives are lumped together with Hitler/ Mussolini.

Mussolini championed Fascism, to which Hitler added German nationalism. Woodrow Wilson and the Progressives — the people we now call Liberals — were quite enamored of the Fascists, considered them to be the embodiment of scientific Progressivism and worthy of emulation.

A good accounting of this can be found In Jonah Goldberg's book, Liberal Fascism.

45 posted on 07/20/2014 12:03:26 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Conservatism is the political disposition of grown-ups.)
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To: WXRGina

Isn’t he living in a Swiss chalet along with JFK and Elvis?


46 posted on 07/20/2014 12:06:13 PM PDT by Pilgrim's Progress (http://www.baptistbiblebelievers.com/BYTOPICS/tabid/335/Default.aspx)
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To: Fred Hayek
It is true that Hitler's fixation on Russia was his military downfall. If he had kept two million men in the Mediterranean theatre instead of pulling them out for Barbarossa, the Allies would never have been able to take Germany's Southern flank. Then of course Barbarossa itself was a collosal blunder.
47 posted on 07/20/2014 12:08:00 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: cripplecreek

That honor (percentage of population killed) would have to go to the Reverend Jones.


48 posted on 07/20/2014 12:11:50 PM PDT by TruthWillWin (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples money.)
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To: virgil283
The problem with that guess is that if Hitler had been killed the military would have taken power and immediately sued for terms. The officer corps had seen far more clearly than Hitler his strategic vulnerabilities. They only acquiesced when his diplomatic victories without war depleted domestic political opposition, and then out of nationalism after hostilities began.
49 posted on 07/20/2014 12:14:34 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: BenLurkin
Better question: Why didn't anyone kill Karl Marx?

Why should they? He never held power and never did anything much after publishing his book.

50 posted on 07/20/2014 12:21:26 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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