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MH17 crash video showing Chaff falling from sky (IMHO)
Youtube ^ | 7/23/2014 | self

Posted on 07/23/2014 4:21:00 AM PDT by logi_cal869

I was browsing video on Youtube of the MH17 crash scene and noticed something unusual.

The source of the video is Russian Television, but posted to Youtube on the 17th here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fjpB5gw3iM in line with the timeline of the crash.

Best views :16-:30 in.

I searched post-by-post here at FR back to the 17th and didn't see any Title asserting this had been observed.

Notice the Chaff falling from the sky...


TOPICS: Weird Stuff
KEYWORDS: mh17; ukraine
If there were military aircraft in the vicinity of this shootdown, then nearly every account/report is without basis if not discussing why there were military aircraft in such proximity to a civilian airliner under the heretofore reported conditions under which it came to its last known position & altitude.

I am aware of one account of a pair of Ukrainian Sukhoi fighters in the area, but I believe that was discarded as propaganda from the Russians, as one source was Alex Jones.

Another source I just found is here

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/source-malaysia-flight-mh17-was-being-escorted-by-ukrainian-su-27-fighter-jets-v2-2014-7

Debate is good; looking forward to reading the comments.

1 posted on 07/23/2014 4:21:00 AM PDT by logi_cal869
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To: logi_cal869

This has been shown a thousand times to be nonsense. Also couple of times even here on FR.


2 posted on 07/23/2014 4:23:48 AM PDT by Krosan
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To: logi_cal869

This looks like toilet paper to me. We used to throw it out the back of C-130s during jump demos.


3 posted on 07/23/2014 4:38:02 AM PDT by Shamrock-DW
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To: logi_cal869

There are several different videos of what appears to be white streamers in the black smoke, but the consensus opinion is that it’s falling debris not chaff.

The Russian military claims a second aircraft was in the vicinity of flight MH17, Ukraine denies it, and so far the United States hasn’t produced any evidence to refute their claim.


4 posted on 07/23/2014 4:52:20 AM PDT by mac_truck ( Aide toi et dieu t aidera)
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To: logi_cal869

So you don’t know what chaff is.

I’ve disbursed lots of it, and that isn’t chaff.

How do I know? Its visible. WWII chaff used against long wave search radars was large, modern chaff is designed to be used against microwave radars and is made of extremely small fiberglass dipoles. You might see it floating down from 10’ away (although it would be extremely disbursed at the ground) but you couldn’t possibly see it at 50’ or more.

When one explodes a passenger jet, you get a lot of debris, including a lot of insulation, tape, cloth, plastic, aluminum sheeting, carbon fiber, shoes, etc. That is what you are seeing.


5 posted on 07/23/2014 4:53:27 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: SampleMan

Yep!


6 posted on 07/23/2014 5:02:44 AM PDT by gr8eman (Bill Carson...meet Arch Stanton!)
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To: SampleMan

Plus all the little napkins, cups, seatback safety cards, airline mags, barf bags, skymall, etc.


7 posted on 07/23/2014 5:28:19 AM PDT by TalonDJ
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To: SampleMan

I suspected as much; I’m very busy and never saw a comment about the falling debris.

That’s why I put this in chat. I’m an aviation buff, but I’ve never seen chaff of any type. Neither have I ever seen video of debris falling from mid-air disintegration of a commercial airliner.

The video of the plane getting hit shows it flying for at least a minute and a half before the video cuts off and it’s intact with the starboard engine on fire. It must have disintegrated at some point shortly thereafter at decent clip AGL, given the falling debris and breadth of the crash scene.

Interesting, nonetheless. Back to work...


8 posted on 07/23/2014 5:49:45 AM PDT by logi_cal869
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To: logi_cal869

You are wondering why debris is falling in the sky after a passenger airliner has been hit by a missile?


9 posted on 07/23/2014 5:50:08 AM PDT by plain talk
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To: plain talk

Would or could it have been any worse if those seat backs and tray tables not been upright and in locked positions?


10 posted on 07/23/2014 6:02:17 AM PDT by urbanpovertylawcenter (the law and poverty collide in an urban setting and sparks fly)
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To: plain talk

You are assuming the aircraft broke up upon missile impact, directly fell out of the sky, and stoking sarcasm via ignorance without actually reading my comment directly preceding yours?


11 posted on 07/23/2014 6:26:19 AM PDT by logi_cal869
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To: SampleMan

We had ship launched chaff that had long streamers like this but it was massed together in much greater quantities and wouldn’t have sepearted out to single streamers in order to present a metallic mass to fool the radar. In addition it was much more reflective (visible light) than what appears in the video even at a distance.

Ours looked more like a firework display. Been to long so don’t remember if it had other things mixed in, but wouldn’t be suprised.


12 posted on 07/23/2014 7:06:51 AM PDT by reed13k (For evil to triumph it is only necessary for good men to do nothings)
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To: reed13k

Yes, ship deployed chaff is larger and visible, but that is due to the radar it is used against and the volume put out. Ships are large slow moving targets, and the location/targeting radars used against them have been (until recently) lower frequency, longer wave types. The longer the dipole, the longer the chaff.

Also, aircraft chaff is designed to provide false targets, while shipboard chaff is designed more to create a wall (cloud) obscuring everything behind and within it.


13 posted on 07/23/2014 7:20:39 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: logi_cal869

Yes I am assuming the plane was shot by a missile and broke up in the air and debris fell from the sky. What is your point with this “article”?


14 posted on 07/23/2014 7:31:13 AM PDT by plain talk
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To: Krosan
Continuous stream chaff. A rather new development.

Chaff - Radar Countermeasures

Begin quote.

Motors feed chaff from rolls of about 40 pounds through cutters carried on some aircraft to produce either bursts or a continuous stream. The continuous stream technique, called saturation chaff, may be used by aircraft to cover a large area. By 2005 or 2006, the Army also planned to use saturation chaff to mask vehicle and troop movements. Using a cutter, 360 pounds of chaff from nine 40-pound rolls can be deployed in 10 minutes. Depending on the method and the number of aircraft, such releases could disperse billions of fibers. The B-52 can carry about 750 seven-ounce boxes of chaff; each box contains up to 11 million fibers that can be expelled continuously or in bursts.

End quote.

A saturation continuous stream chaff deployment would be exactly what a smaller plane would drop if it was trying to mask a much larger commercial plane.

15 posted on 07/23/2014 10:02:32 AM PDT by justa-hairyape (The user name is sarcastic. Although at times it may not appear that way.)
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To: SampleMan
Looks visible to me.

And seeing it from 50 feet would all depend on lighting and what it had gathered onto its surface falling from 30,000 feet through a debri field.

16 posted on 07/23/2014 10:11:00 AM PDT by justa-hairyape (The user name is sarcastic. Although at times it may not appear that way.)
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To: Shamrock-DW
This looks like toilet paper to me. We used to throw it out the back of C-130s during jump demos.

Then you know the temperature of the air at over 30,000 feet ?

17 posted on 07/23/2014 10:13:44 AM PDT by justa-hairyape (The user name is sarcastic. Although at times it may not appear that way.)
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To: justa-hairyape
Do you know what you are looking at in that photo?

No you don't.

You are looking at an uncut spool of metal-fiber thread.

What you are saying is that because you can see a spool of thread, you will still be able to see it after it is cut into lengths of 2-3 cm and disbursed.

Further, do you know what the volume of an aircraft chaff round is? Its about the same as a 10ga shot-shell, with a total capacity of 40-60 rounds per aircraft.

So, in summary, you are stating that you could take half a gallon of shiny thread cut into bits 2-3cm long, release it from 30,000 ft, and see it falling. You are wrong.

I've witnessed a lot of chaff being shot out of aircraft and beyond a small white puff next to the airplane, there is nothing visible.

18 posted on 07/23/2014 11:21:19 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: SampleMan
Yes. Know exactly what I am looking at. It is called bundle chaff from the manufacturer and it is sold to Eastern Europe.

And it is cut on the fly from an assembly mounted to a rail. There is a video that shows one complete rail mounted assembly available on the net. Lengths vary by the desired affect. In loose chaff mode, up to 2 inches long. And in continuous stream mode, as long as you want it.

You should not assume that all chaff is distributed by exploding canisters. In a rail mounted assembly it can be cut on the fly.

19 posted on 07/23/2014 11:29:45 AM PDT by justa-hairyape (The user name is sarcastic. Although at times it may not appear that way.)
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To: justa-hairyape

Continuous stream chaff is not a new development. Its at least 50 years old. It is also no longer being used by anyone that I know of, and certainly not in the giant cloud tactic you are describing.

Chaff in general has fallen out of favor, due to much more capable engagement systems that can easily distinguish Doppler and/or use leading edge targeting. Active electronic jamming and spoofing are where things are today.

Further, which aircraft are you suggesting would have been employing continuous chaff stream capability? The Su-25? Where would they put that on the aircraft, and to what end? What would they have been trying to hide with it?


20 posted on 07/23/2014 11:33:42 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: justa-hairyape
So here is what chaff really looks like.

Are you still thinking that you can see it after its disbursed, and that is what you are seeing in the video?

21 posted on 07/23/2014 11:53:27 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: SampleMan
That product is being sold right now to eastern European countries. And apparently you did not read my previous post #15 where it stated the US is starting to use continuous saturation stream chaff methods in 2005/2006. So that is fairly current and the technique is fairly new.

There was a SU25 shown near the commercial jet by Russian radar. And we have reports from aviation experts, not verified, that the Ukrainians were running CAP missions ever since they lost a fighter to the Russians.

We do not know exactly what happened yet, since the Ukraine will not release air traffic controller records or any of their air traffic radar records yet. Other then that, read post #15.

22 posted on 07/23/2014 12:45:01 PM PDT by justa-hairyape (The user name is sarcastic. Although at times it may not appear that way.)
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To: justa-hairyape

I’ve taught tactical application of radar countermeasures for 24 years, but if you saw it on Wiki then, yea, you’ve got to be right.


23 posted on 07/23/2014 12:49:52 PM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: SampleMan

Psst. Don’t tell him what an F-22 can do it will blow his mind.


24 posted on 07/23/2014 12:54:55 PM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: SampleMan

That picture was already posted on the previous thread that discussed the original blogger who pointed out the chaff videos. Two to three days ago. Again, Continuous stream saturation chaff. Also called wide area chaff. Deployed from a rail mounted pod. Could go into other speculative ways to deploy that kind of chaff, but we probably do not want to tread upon what could be tight lip areas. In summary, that could be chaff.


25 posted on 07/23/2014 1:05:50 PM PDT by justa-hairyape (The user name is sarcastic. Although at times it may not appear that way.)
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To: SampleMan

Have not posted anything from Wiki. That was Global Security.


26 posted on 07/23/2014 1:06:58 PM PDT by justa-hairyape (The user name is sarcastic. Although at times it may not appear that way.)
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To: SampleMan
I’ve taught tactical application of radar countermeasures for 24 years, but if you saw it on Wiki then, yea, you’ve got to be right.

You are talking to somebody who got his feet weight on the internet debating PhD College professors in the newsgroups about Marxism in the late 1980's and early 1990's. Guess I was supposed to assume they were right ?

And thanks for your service to our country.

27 posted on 07/23/2014 1:13:33 PM PDT by justa-hairyape (The user name is sarcastic. Although at times it may not appear that way.)
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To: justa-hairyape
Global Security and other similar sights like FAS.org are often like wiki in the sense that they are a collection of loosely edited submissions and often generalizations.

I did a quick search of GS and presume that you took the information from the 1998 GAO environmental impact report?

Well, that is what it says will be happening in 2005-06 alright, but reality doesn't match.

There is really no way to see filament chaff from any appreciable distance in the quantities it is dispersed in. Also, it is so light that it tends to float around for hours, instead of settling back to earth. I wasn't trying to awe you with my credentials, rather just acknowledging that I can't effectively prove a negative.

28 posted on 07/23/2014 1:30:55 PM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: logi_cal869
The video of the plane getting hit shows it flying for at least a minute and a half before the video cuts off and it’s intact with the starboard engine on fire. It must have disintegrated at some point shortly thereafter at decent clip AGL, given the falling debris and breadth of the crash scene.

What video is that? Who could have taken such a video?

It would have had to have been from another plane or somebody with a really good telephoto.

Much more likely is that the airplane was blown apart instantly when the missile struck. The Buk warhead is 154 pounds of high explosive.

29 posted on 07/23/2014 1:38:17 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: justa-hairyape

Let’s try an exercise.

Please post a photo of a chaff cloud dispersed from an aircraft (post-WWII), so that we might be able to compare it to this video.

As radar SAMs use wavelengths of 1.5-3cm, also please explain why a tactical aircraft would be dispersing extremely long wavelengths and volumes of chaff that would only work against large search radar systems? The SAM systems already know you are there, and the search radars are going to report activity in the area either way.


30 posted on 07/23/2014 1:40:35 PM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: SampleMan
Nothing I posted had anything to do with wiki. So why even mention Wiki ?

I did a quick search of GS and presume that you took the information from the 1998 GAO environmental impact report?

Avoided posting anything from those because they were mostly chemtrail orientated. Might have used them to find the manufacturer web site though. So I ended up using the actual manufacturers web site. The guys that actually make the stuff you guys in the military use. Here is the source for Bundle chaff which led me to the picture. Think that is the source. My connection is too slow to verify that right now.

VAISC Esterline Radar Counter measures

Well, that is what it says will be happening in 2005-06 alright, but reality doesn't match.

They themselves state the US was planning too. But just because the US did not find the products usable, does not mean other countries did not find a use for the new technique and products. These companies sell to other countries beside the US. The point is, the product was at least considered feasible by the US at one time. No one is saying the US released that chaff.

There is really no way to see filament chaff from any appreciable distance in the quantities it is dispersed in.

Radar can see it, and it is part of the same electromagnetic spectrum that visible light is. At any rate, how could you not physically see the plane as you reported.

Also, it is so light that it tends to float around for hours, instead of settling back to earth. I wasn't trying to awe you with my credentials, rather just acknowledging that I can't effectively prove a negative.

Not talking about filament chaff. Talking about the continuous stream chaff that the US at least was planning to deploy in 2005/2006 time frame.

31 posted on 07/23/2014 1:53:35 PM PDT by justa-hairyape (The user name is sarcastic. Although at times it may not appear that way.)
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To: SampleMan
Please post a photo of a chaff cloud dispersed from an aircraft (post-WWII), so that we might be able to compare it to this video.

Already spent time 2-3 days ago looking for images and/or video of this type of chaff deployment. Could not find it. There were definitely tests done as the US was thinking about at least using the technique in 2005/2006. Bottom line is a company is selling the product today. Order a bundle.

32 posted on 07/23/2014 1:56:56 PM PDT by justa-hairyape (The user name is sarcastic. Although at times it may not appear that way.)
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To: SampleMan
The SAM systems already know you are there, and the search radars are going to report activity in the area either way.

The plane went down. The chaff deployment failed. And now, coincidentally we are sending pentagon advisers. Thing I will drop the discussion at this point since we are getting into gray areas.

33 posted on 07/23/2014 2:04:25 PM PDT by justa-hairyape (The user name is sarcastic. Although at times it may not appear that way.)
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To: justa-hairyape

Continuous stream was the same material, it is just cut when you need it. Why? Because it can be cut to the exact dipole length desired, making it more effective. The problem is, it was very complicated and the systems would fail. More effective to pack multiple precut lengths into each bundle and cover the whole spectrum.


34 posted on 07/23/2014 4:54:30 PM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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