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Theology Question

Posted on 08/01/2014 1:47:03 PM PDT by MNDude

I have a theological question that I have not heard asked before.

As we know, God gave his only Son to suffer and to die for our sins. As we can imagine, a parent seeing their son suffer must be the hardest thing possible, and the Father must have grieved greatly to see His Son suffer.

My question is, did the death itself of His son cause the Father to grieve as well?

I mean, when we humans lose a loved one, one of the biggest reasons is that this person is removed from Point A (where we are) to Point B (where we are not).

In the case of Christ, would it not be the opposite? Christ would go from Point A (not in the Father's presence)to Point B (in the Father's presence).

What are your thoughts?


TOPICS: Religion
KEYWORDS: chat; christ; religion
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1 posted on 08/01/2014 1:47:03 PM PDT by MNDude
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To: MNDude

Trying to guess the thoughts of God by comparing him to human traits is a difficult at best task, especially when we stray from topics not covered in the Bible.


2 posted on 08/01/2014 1:49:39 PM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer.)
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To: MNDude

I don’t know the answer, other than the clear theology that Jesus always existed and always will.

But I have always been interested in the “why have you forsaken me” passage.


3 posted on 08/01/2014 1:50:50 PM PDT by Mount Athos (A Giant luxury mega-mansion for Gore, a Government Green EcoShack made of poo for you)
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To: MNDude

Interesting question but has been debated theologically for years.

The Father was grieved that His chosen people rejected Him (as He knew they would) but the true grief came at something that (as far as we know) had never occurred before: that of the separation of the Father from the Son, in a manner incomprehensible to humans. The Son did not go directly to the presence of the Father, He descended into Hades to preach across the gulf to those who had not lived according to the covenant. He also went to collect those in the Bosom of Abraham and take them to the Father to await the resurrection and the creation of a new Heaven and Earth.


4 posted on 08/01/2014 1:51:57 PM PDT by rjsimmon (The Tree of Liberty Thirsts)
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To: MNDude

It’s thought by some that the darkness that prevailed at Christ’s death was because the Father could not look upon Jesus’s death so man would not be allowed to either.

That darkness was recorded as far away as Rome.


5 posted on 08/01/2014 1:52:39 PM PDT by DannyTN (I)
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To: MNDude

My question is, did the death itself of His son cause the Father to grieve as well?

_________________________________________________________

God willingly gave up His Son so that all may be saved. (John 3:16)

I don’t wonder at God’s greif when Christ died. I wonder at his greif now when so many reject His offer of love and grace.

Now THAT must hurt.


6 posted on 08/01/2014 1:59:11 PM PDT by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: MNDude

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Verse 23 shows the great dichotomy. Christ was delivered by the determinate (ordained, appointed, decreed) counsel (purpose, will) of God. Yet it was by men’s wicked hands that He was crucified and slain.


7 posted on 08/01/2014 2:00:42 PM PDT by afsnco
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To: MNDude

I could argue the Christ becoming man for 30 some years is meaningless in terms of his God position. He was and is always God. Yes he suffered, but he always was God.


8 posted on 08/01/2014 2:01:11 PM PDT by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicatedo)
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To: MNDude

Grief comes as a result of loss.

For God, the loss of His son (especially in the manner in which He died) was something He did not want anymore than Jesus Himself.

We will NEVER have any idea how much God grieved at the loss of His son, because it was something that He (both Father and Son) had never experienced before. It was the first time and only time that God the Father had to literally turn his back to His own Son as Jesus bared the weight of mankind’s sin.

As for grief itself, again... it is the result of loss.
For sure, I would submit that God has never grieved as much as He did when gave up His son... but it was not the first time that God grieved over loss...

I would submit that God also grieved when he lost His most prized and powerful angel... whom He had given power and dominion to over His entire heavenly host.

Of course, this was all planned from the beginning... before a single angel was created and even before the foundations of the earth was laid... God knew that there would be loss... and He knew there would be grief.

But He went forward with His plans anyway...

Because He loves us.


9 posted on 08/01/2014 2:02:13 PM PDT by Safrguns (PM me if you like to play Minecraft!)
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To: MNDude

Jesus (God) wept at the death of Lazarus, so it’s logical to assume God the Father grieved at the death of Jesus.


10 posted on 08/01/2014 2:05:25 PM PDT by aimhigh (1 John 3:23)
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To: MNDude

There are only two times. Now and not now. Now and the negation or nonexistence of now. As nonexistence does not exist, there is only now. For God a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years a day. Eternity is always now. The Father was never without the Son. Only on time could there be a gap.
Likewise people do not go to hell forever. Just eternity.


11 posted on 08/01/2014 2:10:57 PM PDT by all the best
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To: MNDude

God the Father does not suffer. He is pure spirit and does not have human emotions.

Do you still think that raindrops are God’s tears?


12 posted on 08/01/2014 2:14:01 PM PDT by miserare (2014--The Year We Fight Back!)
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To: MNDude

I am always interested when folks try to personify God the Father, because actually Christ personified God when He became man.

However God is God and as such would not grieve, implying sorrow over something He ‘had to do or had to be done’ or regret, when it is His plan to begin with.

Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam


13 posted on 08/01/2014 2:25:58 PM PDT by LurkingSince'98 (Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam = FOR THE GREATER GLORY OF GOD)
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To: aimhigh

sorry aim...

Jesus (God) did not weep over Lazarus; however, Jesus (man) certainly could.

So it is NOT logical that God the Father ‘grieved’ since it is after His Plan.

AMDG


14 posted on 08/01/2014 2:28:51 PM PDT by LurkingSince'98 (Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam = FOR THE GREATER GLORY OF GOD)
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To: Mount Athos
But I have always been interested in the “why have you forsaken me” passage.

Likewise, which is why I have a hard time accepting the fairly wide mainstream view that God and Jesus are the same entity and the clear scriptural language "only begotten Son of God" is merely rhetoric.

15 posted on 08/01/2014 2:31:23 PM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: MNDude
I'm not sure if that is addressed, but I think it kid safe to think God the Father was saddened.

The thing to remember is this, God gave Himself up to be sacrificed for our sin.

16 posted on 08/01/2014 2:33:59 PM PDT by Gamecock (There is room for all of God's animals. Right next to the mashed potatoes and gravy.)
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To: MNDude

“Why have you forsaken me?”

The way I understand this is, God hates sin. When Jesus took our sin on, God, no longer saw His sinless son, but
saw our filth. So He grieved, until if was finished. So
now, when we ask for forgiveness, God does not see our filth but sees His Son’s blood sacrifice.


17 posted on 08/01/2014 2:42:34 PM PDT by make no mistake
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To: miserare

God is Spirit but He is also Person. We are made in His image so we are spiritual but we are also made by him persons, in His image. Throughout scripture God displays Himself as Person, not as ephemeral spirit.
He says, “I am.” Not as the wind is He but as a person is He.


18 posted on 08/01/2014 2:46:03 PM PDT by Louis Foxwell (This is a wake up call. Join the Sultan Knish ping list.)
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To: miserare

Scripture is FULL of God expressing His emotions! Too many to list here......any student of scripture knows this.

Emotions originated in Him and as man is created in His image, He had emotions first. Only He is pure and holy, and his emotions not affected by sin or a sinful nature. Our emotions are often - but not always - due to our sinful nature.


19 posted on 08/01/2014 2:47:04 PM PDT by Arlis
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To: MNDude

“My question is, did the death itself of His son cause the Father to grieve as well? “

As far as I know there is no death to God. In fact I’d say that there is nothing in the stream of time(which he invented and controls) that cannot be un-done.

The “Why hast Thou forsaken me” thing has fascinated me for decades.


20 posted on 08/01/2014 2:48:17 PM PDT by TalBlack (Evil doesn't have a day job.)
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To: rjsimmon

Where does it say that?!


21 posted on 08/01/2014 2:50:55 PM PDT by Shimmer1 (Ok, the joke's over. Bring back the Constitution.)
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To: aimhigh

Jesus made it very clear that Lazarus was not dead but “sleeping”


22 posted on 08/01/2014 2:56:12 PM PDT by Shimmer1 (Ok, the joke's over. Bring back the Constitution.)
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To: MNDude

God the Father did NOT abandon the Son in His crucifixion: “God was IN CHRIST, reconciling the world to Himself......”

Jesus the Son, by choice limiting Himself to human flesh (as He still is now), lost the AWARENESS of His Father’s presence for the first time in eternity, thus crying out, “Father, why hast Thou forsaken Me?”. The Father and Son were never separated as many teach. The Father was with the Son through the whole of His crucifixion, death, burial - and resurrection.

Did the Father experience pain through the suffering of His Son?

I doubt it not, though indeed there is no “proof-text” of scripture to verify this. At the same time, Isaiah says, “But the Lord was pleased to crush him, putting him to grief....”, but the reason is explained in the following verses after 53:10, as the Father foresaw the fruit of His Son’s death - the redeeming of mankind and the exaltation and glorification of His Son.


23 posted on 08/01/2014 2:57:14 PM PDT by Arlis
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To: rjsimmon

Could you please quote me the specific scriptures that support your statements and from what bible.


24 posted on 08/01/2014 2:58:52 PM PDT by dirtymac (Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country)
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To: MNDude

Catholic teaching is generally that God as the Father, Son, and Holsy Spirit represent distinct natures and personalities, but not human personalities. Moreover, with the Trinity described as a mystery, your question cannot be answered in any meaningful way.


25 posted on 08/01/2014 2:59:56 PM PDT by Rockingham
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To: MNDude
Interesting question.

I would suggest that grief is a human emotion and to be very blunt grief is about "my" loss, not the person who was lost i.e. "what will I do now" "how will I cope without them"

I believe God was rejoicing in that the Son had completed the rescue of man and would now be joining him on the throne.

As it says "I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance."

26 posted on 08/01/2014 3:06:42 PM PDT by virgil283 (Life is hard .....it’s harder if you’re stupid....John Wayne)
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To: Mount Athos
"why have you forsaken me?"

God was judging his innocent son for the sins of the word.

27 posted on 08/01/2014 3:08:30 PM PDT by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
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To: Shimmer1
Jesus made it very clear that Lazarus was not dead but “sleeping”

"Sleeping" is frequently used to describe death of believers. After Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping, he plainly told his disciples that Lazarus had died. See John 11:14.

28 posted on 08/01/2014 3:08:44 PM PDT by aimhigh (1 John 3:23)
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To: Responsibility2nd

AMEN!!!


29 posted on 08/01/2014 3:23:57 PM PDT by Tx Angel
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To: MNDude

My first reaction to this question is that God the Father, as you should recall, FORSOOK Jesus at the cross. Remember Jesus was burdened with the sin of the world....and God had to turn away from the sight thereof.

Although God the Father was pleased with His Son’s obedience, there was a time, I think, when the Godhead was separated.

Any separation in the Trinity would surely result in sorrow.

*Note: I am not a professional theologian. If anyone else can shed better light on this question, or correct my notions, feel free.


30 posted on 08/01/2014 3:32:32 PM PDT by SoFloFreeper
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To: MNDude

I have always believed that while Christ was bearing our sins on the cross, the Father could NOT look upon Him. After Christ declared, “It is finished” and gave up this mortal life, I believe that separation was over. It had to be an almost intolerable moment for both. We can only imagine what TRUE fellowship with the Father is really like, but, yes, I believe God suffered seeing His only Son there on the cross, having been beaten to a pulp (unrecognizable) and then to have to carry the cross up the hill to Golgotha. God has experienced our deepest hurts, as well.


31 posted on 08/01/2014 3:34:55 PM PDT by Shery (in APO Land)
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To: MNDude

The answer to your question depends on one’s point of view. Here is what Jesus said about it: “You heard me say to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28 RSV)


32 posted on 08/01/2014 3:42:48 PM PDT by zot
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To: Mount Athos

“But I have always been interested in the “why have you forsaken me” passage.”

It seems that even within the person of Christ, Himself, the human and the divine occasionally found themselves conflicted. A great mystery.


33 posted on 08/01/2014 3:46:55 PM PDT by Elsiejay
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To: MNDude

God, by definition, is immutable, unchangeable, eternal (outside of time) and simple (no parts). God can’t “process” stuff because that would violate eternity. God can’t “feel” stuff either. God and His will are one and the same. So the ? doesn’t make any sense.


34 posted on 08/01/2014 3:57:50 PM PDT by Repulican Donkey
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To: MNDude

The man Jesus died.. The Son of God was God and did not die. Jesus was man of very man and God of very God. We can not understand this in our human minds but the Son who is God in the Trinity did not die.


35 posted on 08/01/2014 4:04:36 PM PDT by Ramonne
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To: MNDude

The classical answer to your question, and really the only satisfactory answer if one holds anything like the Orthodox understanding of God, is that God, in His Divine Essence, is impassible — only the Son, by virtue of His assumption of our human nature in the hypostatic union can properly be described as suffering, grieving, or otherwise exhibiting emotion (a human, rather than a divine quality).


36 posted on 08/01/2014 4:37:14 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
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To: aimhigh

You know, I don’t know what I was thinking. duhhhh


37 posted on 08/01/2014 4:57:17 PM PDT by Shimmer1 (Ok, the joke's over. Bring back the Constitution.)
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To: MNDude
cause the Father to grieve

I have serious doubts you have the slightest notion of how absurd your query is.

You are asking finite humans like yourself to apprehend the mind of an infinite God. The definition of folly if there ever was one.

If you wish to amuse God, tell him of your plans.

38 posted on 08/01/2014 6:20:28 PM PDT by MosesKnows (Love many, trust few, and always paddle your own canoe.)
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To: Ramonne

You are falling into the error of Nestorius, separating the man Jesus from the Divine Logos. The position you are espousing sets at naught the opening of John’s Gospel, as was recognized by the Fathers of the Third Ecumenical Council, who accepted St. Cyril of Alexandria’s critique of Nestorius, reasoned chiefly on the basis of the first chapter of John, in their anathema against Nestorius.


39 posted on 08/01/2014 6:32:10 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
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To: MosesKnows

Absurd? rjsimmon says this question has been debated over many years.


40 posted on 08/01/2014 6:43:41 PM PDT by MNDude
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To: Arlis; MNDude
"But the Lord was pleased to crush him, putting him to grief....”

This is what leapt to mind after reading MNDude's post. While there is some variance in how Christian perceive what inevitably involves the interface between the Creator and the crown of His creation in taking upon Himself our nature in Christ Jesus to be crucified, dead, buried and risen as our Substitute, the subject is most salutary, and one that the Creator earnestly desires to reveal and make known by His Word and Spirit to all flesh, even those who enter into labor at the last minute of the last hour; who will enter the kingdom ahead of me as they ought.

41 posted on 08/01/2014 7:26:53 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew (Even the compassion of the wicked is cruel.)
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To: The_Reader_David

BUMP


42 posted on 08/01/2014 7:28:24 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew (Even the compassion of the wicked is cruel.)
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To: MNDude
rjsimmon says this question has been debated over many years

What did they decide?

43 posted on 08/01/2014 7:35:28 PM PDT by MosesKnows (Love many, trust few, and always paddle your own canoe.)
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To: MosesKnows

You’ll have to ask him. I thought it was an original question.


44 posted on 08/01/2014 8:34:00 PM PDT by MNDude
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To: FatherofFive

If Jesus is G-d, then how can he die? G-d cannot die. (He cannot be born either.)


45 posted on 08/01/2014 9:16:00 PM PDT by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Well......Bye.)
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To: Gamecock

What? G-d sacrificed himself?


46 posted on 08/01/2014 9:17:39 PM PDT by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Well......Bye.)
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To: Shery

Human sacrifice is utterly abhorrent to G-d. It is a SIN.

Why would He change His mind on the matter?


47 posted on 08/01/2014 9:19:59 PM PDT by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Well......Bye.)
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To: MNDude
My question is, did the death itself of His son cause the Father to grieve as well?

he way I see it, the real grief came from the first-time-ever separation between God the Father and God the Son due to Jesus taking on sin for the first time. On the cross, He cried out, asking why His Father had forsaken Him. Sin separates us from the Father and Jesus had just experienced sin at a really extreme level - all sins, past/present/future - talk about a giant crowbar rending them apart. Caused them both more grief than ever before and probably ever again.

48 posted on 08/02/2014 2:28:19 AM PDT by trebb (Where in the the hell has my country gone?)
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To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN

He sacrificed himself to pay the penalty we had coming for our rebellion.


49 posted on 08/02/2014 5:03:03 AM PDT by Gamecock (There is room for all of God's animals. Right next to the mashed potatoes and gravy.)
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To: Gamecock

G-d cannot die. It is illogical.


50 posted on 08/02/2014 7:07:50 AM PDT by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Well......Bye.)
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