Skip to comments.Theology Question
Posted on 08/01/2014 1:47:03 PM PDT by MNDude
I have a theological question that I have not heard asked before.
As we know, God gave his only Son to suffer and to die for our sins. As we can imagine, a parent seeing their son suffer must be the hardest thing possible, and the Father must have grieved greatly to see His Son suffer.
My question is, did the death itself of His son cause the Father to grieve as well?
I mean, when we humans lose a loved one, one of the biggest reasons is that this person is removed from Point A (where we are) to Point B (where we are not).
In the case of Christ, would it not be the opposite? Christ would go from Point A (not in the Father's presence)to Point B (in the Father's presence).
What are your thoughts?
Trying to guess the thoughts of God by comparing him to human traits is a difficult at best task, especially when we stray from topics not covered in the Bible.
I don’t know the answer, other than the clear theology that Jesus always existed and always will.
But I have always been interested in the “why have you forsaken me” passage.
Interesting question but has been debated theologically for years.
The Father was grieved that His chosen people rejected Him (as He knew they would) but the true grief came at something that (as far as we know) had never occurred before: that of the separation of the Father from the Son, in a manner incomprehensible to humans. The Son did not go directly to the presence of the Father, He descended into Hades to preach across the gulf to those who had not lived according to the covenant. He also went to collect those in the Bosom of Abraham and take them to the Father to await the resurrection and the creation of a new Heaven and Earth.
It’s thought by some that the darkness that prevailed at Christ’s death was because the Father could not look upon Jesus’s death so man would not be allowed to either.
That darkness was recorded as far away as Rome.
My question is, did the death itself of His son cause the Father to grieve as well?
God willingly gave up His Son so that all may be saved. (John 3:16)
I don’t wonder at God’s greif when Christ died. I wonder at his greif now when so many reject His offer of love and grace.
Now THAT must hurt.
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Verse 23 shows the great dichotomy. Christ was delivered by the determinate (ordained, appointed, decreed) counsel (purpose, will) of God. Yet it was by men’s wicked hands that He was crucified and slain.
I could argue the Christ becoming man for 30 some years is meaningless in terms of his God position. He was and is always God. Yes he suffered, but he always was God.
Grief comes as a result of loss.
For God, the loss of His son (especially in the manner in which He died) was something He did not want anymore than Jesus Himself.
We will NEVER have any idea how much God grieved at the loss of His son, because it was something that He (both Father and Son) had never experienced before. It was the first time and only time that God the Father had to literally turn his back to His own Son as Jesus bared the weight of mankind’s sin.
As for grief itself, again... it is the result of loss.
For sure, I would submit that God has never grieved as much as He did when gave up His son... but it was not the first time that God grieved over loss...
I would submit that God also grieved when he lost His most prized and powerful angel... whom He had given power and dominion to over His entire heavenly host.
Of course, this was all planned from the beginning... before a single angel was created and even before the foundations of the earth was laid... God knew that there would be loss... and He knew there would be grief.
But He went forward with His plans anyway...
Because He loves us.
Jesus (God) wept at the death of Lazarus, so it’s logical to assume God the Father grieved at the death of Jesus.
There are only two times. Now and not now. Now and the negation or nonexistence of now. As nonexistence does not exist, there is only now. For God a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years a day. Eternity is always now. The Father was never without the Son. Only on time could there be a gap.
Likewise people do not go to hell forever. Just eternity.
God the Father does not suffer. He is pure spirit and does not have human emotions.
Do you still think that raindrops are God’s tears?
I am always interested when folks try to personify God the Father, because actually Christ personified God when He became man.
However God is God and as such would not grieve, implying sorrow over something He ‘had to do or had to be done’ or regret, when it is His plan to begin with.
Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam
Jesus (God) did not weep over Lazarus; however, Jesus (man) certainly could.
So it is NOT logical that God the Father ‘grieved’ since it is after His Plan.
Likewise, which is why I have a hard time accepting the fairly wide mainstream view that God and Jesus are the same entity and the clear scriptural language "only begotten Son of God" is merely rhetoric.
The thing to remember is this, God gave Himself up to be sacrificed for our sin.
“Why have you forsaken me?”
The way I understand this is, God hates sin. When Jesus took our sin on, God, no longer saw His sinless son, but
saw our filth. So He grieved, until if was finished. So
now, when we ask for forgiveness, God does not see our filth but sees His Son’s blood sacrifice.
God is Spirit but He is also Person. We are made in His image so we are spiritual but we are also made by him persons, in His image. Throughout scripture God displays Himself as Person, not as ephemeral spirit.
He says, “I am.” Not as the wind is He but as a person is He.
Scripture is FULL of God expressing His emotions! Too many to list here......any student of scripture knows this.
Emotions originated in Him and as man is created in His image, He had emotions first. Only He is pure and holy, and his emotions not affected by sin or a sinful nature. Our emotions are often - but not always - due to our sinful nature.
“My question is, did the death itself of His son cause the Father to grieve as well? “
As far as I know there is no death to God. In fact I’d say that there is nothing in the stream of time(which he invented and controls) that cannot be un-done.
The “Why hast Thou forsaken me” thing has fascinated me for decades.
Where does it say that?!
Jesus made it very clear that Lazarus was not dead but “sleeping”
God the Father did NOT abandon the Son in His crucifixion: “God was IN CHRIST, reconciling the world to Himself......”
Jesus the Son, by choice limiting Himself to human flesh (as He still is now), lost the AWARENESS of His Father’s presence for the first time in eternity, thus crying out, “Father, why hast Thou forsaken Me?”. The Father and Son were never separated as many teach. The Father was with the Son through the whole of His crucifixion, death, burial - and resurrection.
Did the Father experience pain through the suffering of His Son?
I doubt it not, though indeed there is no “proof-text” of scripture to verify this. At the same time, Isaiah says, “But the Lord was pleased to crush him, putting him to grief....”, but the reason is explained in the following verses after 53:10, as the Father foresaw the fruit of His Son’s death - the redeeming of mankind and the exaltation and glorification of His Son.
Could you please quote me the specific scriptures that support your statements and from what bible.
Catholic teaching is generally that God as the Father, Son, and Holsy Spirit represent distinct natures and personalities, but not human personalities. Moreover, with the Trinity described as a mystery, your question cannot be answered in any meaningful way.
I would suggest that grief is a human emotion and to be very blunt grief is about "my" loss, not the person who was lost i.e. "what will I do now" "how will I cope without them"
I believe God was rejoicing in that the Son had completed the rescue of man and would now be joining him on the throne.
As it says "I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance."
God was judging his innocent son for the sins of the word.
"Sleeping" is frequently used to describe death of believers. After Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping, he plainly told his disciples that Lazarus had died. See John 11:14.
My first reaction to this question is that God the Father, as you should recall, FORSOOK Jesus at the cross. Remember Jesus was burdened with the sin of the world....and God had to turn away from the sight thereof.
Although God the Father was pleased with His Son’s obedience, there was a time, I think, when the Godhead was separated.
Any separation in the Trinity would surely result in sorrow.
*Note: I am not a professional theologian. If anyone else can shed better light on this question, or correct my notions, feel free.
I have always believed that while Christ was bearing our sins on the cross, the Father could NOT look upon Him. After Christ declared, “It is finished” and gave up this mortal life, I believe that separation was over. It had to be an almost intolerable moment for both. We can only imagine what TRUE fellowship with the Father is really like, but, yes, I believe God suffered seeing His only Son there on the cross, having been beaten to a pulp (unrecognizable) and then to have to carry the cross up the hill to Golgotha. God has experienced our deepest hurts, as well.
The answer to your question depends on one’s point of view. Here is what Jesus said about it: “You heard me say to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28 RSV)
“But I have always been interested in the why have you forsaken me passage.”
It seems that even within the person of Christ, Himself, the human and the divine occasionally found themselves conflicted. A great mystery.
God, by definition, is immutable, unchangeable, eternal (outside of time) and simple (no parts). God can’t “process” stuff because that would violate eternity. God can’t “feel” stuff either. God and His will are one and the same. So the ? doesn’t make any sense.
The man Jesus died.. The Son of God was God and did not die. Jesus was man of very man and God of very God. We can not understand this in our human minds but the Son who is God in the Trinity did not die.
The classical answer to your question, and really the only satisfactory answer if one holds anything like the Orthodox understanding of God, is that God, in His Divine Essence, is impassible — only the Son, by virtue of His assumption of our human nature in the hypostatic union can properly be described as suffering, grieving, or otherwise exhibiting emotion (a human, rather than a divine quality).
You know, I don’t know what I was thinking. duhhhh
I have serious doubts you have the slightest notion of how absurd your query is.
You are asking finite humans like yourself to apprehend the mind of an infinite God. The definition of folly if there ever was one.
If you wish to amuse God, tell him of your plans.
You are falling into the error of Nestorius, separating the man Jesus from the Divine Logos. The position you are espousing sets at naught the opening of John’s Gospel, as was recognized by the Fathers of the Third Ecumenical Council, who accepted St. Cyril of Alexandria’s critique of Nestorius, reasoned chiefly on the basis of the first chapter of John, in their anathema against Nestorius.
Absurd? rjsimmon says this question has been debated over many years.
This is what leapt to mind after reading MNDude's post. While there is some variance in how Christian perceive what inevitably involves the interface between the Creator and the crown of His creation in taking upon Himself our nature in Christ Jesus to be crucified, dead, buried and risen as our Substitute, the subject is most salutary, and one that the Creator earnestly desires to reveal and make known by His Word and Spirit to all flesh, even those who enter into labor at the last minute of the last hour; who will enter the kingdom ahead of me as they ought.
What did they decide?
You’ll have to ask him. I thought it was an original question.
If Jesus is G-d, then how can he die? G-d cannot die. (He cannot be born either.)
What? G-d sacrificed himself?
Human sacrifice is utterly abhorrent to G-d. It is a SIN.
Why would He change His mind on the matter?
he way I see it, the real grief came from the first-time-ever separation between God the Father and God the Son due to Jesus taking on sin for the first time. On the cross, He cried out, asking why His Father had forsaken Him. Sin separates us from the Father and Jesus had just experienced sin at a really extreme level - all sins, past/present/future - talk about a giant crowbar rending them apart. Caused them both more grief than ever before and probably ever again.
He sacrificed himself to pay the penalty we had coming for our rebellion.
G-d cannot die. It is illogical.