Posted on 11/22/2015 3:27:52 PM PST by sparklite2
So let's, just for the hell of it, allow our imaginations to run riot. What might a reformed Catholic Church look like? Start with small steps - allowing communion to divorced or co-habiting couples, the Church not judging gay men in loving relationships (both positions Francis himself has espoused). From there we move to a greater acceptance of homosexuality in general, even to same-sex union and families. How long before we hit celibacy and women priests? At which point there are women in the faith who would want to widen the debate, to suggest that it is the whole notion of an elevated priesthood and hierarchy that needs addressing, encouraging more democracy and community as a way to get better shepherds for the flock.
Enter a religion defined by God's mercy and inclusion, with a strong voice on issues like market excess and climate change and where men and women shared spiritual power. In a world under attack from testosterone-driven fundamentalism - I could have written exactly those same words before the events in Paris, but somehow they mean even more now - that is a religion even I might be tempted to join. Though how many Catholics I would find sitting next to me in the pews is a big question.
Inconceivable, clearly. In the real world, Francis' milder reforms have already hit a bedrock of opposition. Consider how little the recent family synod really moved its position on anything. Dragging one's heels is a powerful strategy used against a man who will be 80 next year.
(Excerpt) Read more at bbc.com ...
Liberal wishful thinking.
Would not a reformed Catholic church look like a Lutheran Church?
Or an Episcopal Church.
Enter a religion defined by God’s mercy and inclusion …God’s mercy does not feature inclusion of the wicked. Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent, as Adam Smith once pointed out.
And still grumbling at what might have been.
Thank you Jesus, for giving us JPII and stopping the takeover from the left.
The religious orders who are conservative are the ones getting all the new recruits.
God’s mercy does not preclude the need for individual repentance. That is the part that the left doesn’t get. You cannot live in willful sin without repentance and claim the grace of God.
To me there is both a quantitative and Qualitative difference between a person who is divorced and a practicing homosexual or a cohabiting couple that refuses to marry
Sounds just like the Anglican Church - and all 50 members of it.
Can I suggest this be moved to the Religion Forum? It would likely get a lot more attention there.
I thought about putting it in religion, but it’s not really about religion, is it? It’s about the church structure and possible direction under the current pope.
Ecclesiology is a part of religion.
General/chat has a religion topic.
This works for me.
“The liberal Catholics, who thought that the spirit of Vatican II would be their triumph”
It was the end of my being a Catholic.
It's beginning to sound more like the Unitarian/Universalist "Church".
"Start with small steps - allowing communion to divorced or co-habiting couples, the Church not judging gay men in loving relationships (both positions Francis himself has espoused)...
False. Divorced couples can receive the Sacraments now, on the same basis as everybody else: being in a State of Grace, having confessed their sins and being forgiven, and intending not to go back to the sin.
If someone had attempted a subsequent "civil marriage" with somebody else, that person's sin would be that second "marriage": adulterous cohabitation.
b>Civil divorce itself, alone, is not a sin per se As for "gay men in loving relationships," Pope Francis did not say their homosexual conduct is not to be "judged". To put that whole wild media theme into context, it was said about one priest--- one priest ---who was said to have an active homosexual past:
In regard to Monsignor Ricca, I’ve done what Canon Law orders to do, which is the investigatio previa. [He was investigated!] And from this investigatio there is nothing of which they accuse him, we haven’t found anything of that.[They found nothing!]"...in this case, they go to look for the “sins of youth,†for instance, and this is published. Not the crimes, alas. Crimes are something else: the abuse of minors is a crime. No, the sins. "But if a person, lay or priest or Sister, has committed a sin and then has converted, the Lord forgives, and when the Lord forgives, the Lord forgets and this is important for our life. When we go to confession and truly say: “I have sinned in this,†the Lord forgets. "But, returning to your more concrete question: in this case, I’ve done the investigatio previa and we found nothing. One must distinguish the fact of being a gay person from the fact of doing a lobby, because not all lobbies are good. That’s bad. If a person is gay and seeks the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge him? The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this in such a beautiful way, it says, Wait a bit, as is said and says: "these persons must not be marginalized because of this; they must be integrated in society."
So he was not talking about "homosexuals in a loving relationship." He was talking about a priest, in the explicit context of the Catechism (which calls homosexual relations a matter of "grave depravity") and in the context of repentance, Confession, and forgiveness.
Not approval, affirmation, and pride!
“the Church not judging gay men in loving relationships”
The Church does not judge hearts, only actions....and these gay actions will always be abominations....because Jesus said so and you can’t change His Church, only create a spin off as a protester.
dreaming...what if satan had the power of Jesus, instead of just the power of an Angel....it would be a very bad world indeed. But there would be gay marriage and such!
Actually that is much what the RCC is in America, along with liberal Prot churches, both of which, as with all, testify to what they truly believe by what they do and effect.
“Would not a reformed Catholic church look like a Lutheran Church?”
Not according to the Reformed (i.e. Calvinists). This is exactly what a “Reformed Catholic Church” would look like: http://www.reformedcatholic.org/our-beliefs/
"To whom Lord should we go?"
So, I stuck around.
Precisely, one that is shrinking and irrelevant.
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