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Sherman the Pyromaniac
LewRockwell.com ^ | June 21, 2002 | Gail Jarvis

Posted on 06/21/2002 7:41:57 AM PDT by Aurelius

On February 17, 1865, General William Tecumseh Sherman’s Union Troops completed the long march from Savannah and reached Columbia, the capital of South Carolina. T.J Goodwyn, Columbia’s Mayor, surrendered the city to General Sherman, and requested "for its citizens the treatment accorded by the usages of civilized warfare." Also, the Mayor asked the General to provide adequate guards "to maintain order in the city and protect the persons and property of the citizens."

General Sherman informed the Mayor that he might have to destroy a few government buildings but otherwise, "Not a finger’s breadth, Mr. Mayor, of your city shall be harmed. You may lie down to sleep, satisfied that your town shall be as safe in my hands as if wholly in your own."

Three days later Sherman’s Union forces marched out of Columbia, leaving behind roughly 50% of the city they had occupied; the rest was charred, smoldering ruins. Almost 500 buildings and their contents had been destroyed including warehouses, factories, offices, hotels, schools, libraries, private residences, churches, and a Catholic convent.

General Sherman claimed that the fire had been started by retreating Confederate troops, a claim that was denied by Confederate officers as well as Columbia’s citizens. And so began a controversy that continues to this day: Who was responsible for the burning of Columbia?

Southern historians generally blame the conflagration on a vengeful General Sherman while many Northern historians attempt to justify, mitigate, and in some cases, deny the involvement of Union troops. Other versions claim that drunken soldiers accidentally set the fires and at least one historian claims that a series of small, normally safe, fires got out of control because of strong winds blowing through the city.

But this disaster had many eyewitnesses including William Gilmore Simms, who, before the War Between the States, was an internationally celebrated author, poet, journalist and historian.

Tourists to Charleston, Simms’ hometown, get an idea of his importance if they visit White Gardens, the little park beside the Battery. Strolling through the park, they will encounter a bust of a rather stern looking man atop a pedestal with a single word inscription "Simms." When this monument was erected in the 1890s, it never occurred to Charlestonians that any further description was needed.

Unfortunately, Simms was also a staunch supporter of the Confederacy, defending its right to secede as well as to determine its own public policies. So he became a victim of political correctness long before that term was coined. Quietly, during the 1970s, many encyclopedias began deleting any reference to Simms. At that time, I remember leafing through one encyclopedia, an updated version recently placed on the library’s shelves. To my dismay, Simms had been removed and, in one of life’s little curios, his alphabetical slot had been refilled by professional football player, O.J. Simpson.

Because William Gilmore Simms was familiar with Sherman’s frequently quoted opinions as well as his background, he expected Columbia to be torched. Also, probably sensing that Northern historians might attempt to vindicate Sherman, Simms wanted to make an accurate record of events for posterity. So he traveled to Columbia, arriving a few days before General Sherman and his troops. With his keen observer’s eye Simms viewed events as they unfolded. He also conducted numerous interviews with other eyewitnesses, taking copious notes. Consequently, Simms was able to scrupulously report the events of those three dark days in February 1865.

His book, The Sack and Destruction of Columbia, South Carolina, begins with this ominous sentence: "It has pleased God, in that Providence which is so inscrutable to man, to visit our beautiful city with the most cruel fate which can ever befall States or cities." Simms goes on to capsulize the dramatic incidents and offer his conclusions. To illustrate the magnitude of the devastation, he includes a detailed listing of properties destroyed which fills nineteen pages. "The Sack and Destruction of Columbia, South Carolina" was first published in 1865 and it would be Simms last book. In 1937, A.A. Salley reissued the work with clarifying notes. Because of the continued interest in the burning of Columbia, the book was issued again in the year 2000 by Crown Rights Book Company. This latest version fails to attribute the footnotes to Salley which causes a certain amount of confusion, but doesn’t detract from the book’s overall power.

William Gilmore Simms places the blame for the holocaust of Columbia on the Commander-in-Chief of the occupying army, William Tecumseh Sherman. He also puts to rest claims that retreating Confederates set the fires or that they were accidentally started by an unruly group of drunken soldiers. His recital of events makes it crystal clear that the Union officers, especially General Sherman, had control of the troops at all times and knew what was happening in every quarter of the city. Throughout the inferno, General Sherman was frequently spotted riding through the city, observing what was happening but making no attempt to stop it.

Any discussion of Sherman’s culpability in the burning of Columbia should mention his pre-war opinions of Southerners, especially South Carolinians; opinions he formed while stationed there in 1843. "This state, their aristocracy, their patriarchal chivalry and glory-all trash." But Sherman was alarmed by what he called South Carolina "young bloods" who were "brave, fine riders, bold to rashness and dangerous in every sense." His solution was, incredibly, that "the present class of men who rule the South must be killed outright."

Sherman’s resentment of Columbia’s upper class finally erupted during his occupation of their city. In addition to having their homes burned, irreplaceable heirlooms and other family mementos were destroyed. Priceless paintings, family portraits, and statuary were defaced. Family crystal and porcelain china were smashed. And a special target of Sherman’s wrath were private libraries hosting invaluable historical documents and irreplaceable first editions.

But the anxious citizens of Columbia had anticipated the worst even before Sherman’s army arrived.

"Day by day brought to the people of Columbia tidings of atrocities committed.long trains of fugitives.seeking refuge from the pursuers.village after village-one sending up its signal flames to the other, presaging for it the same fate.where mules and horses were not choice, they were shot down.young colts, however fine the stock, had their throats cut.the roads were covered with butchered cattle, hogs, mules and the costliest furniture. horses were ridden into houses. People were forced from their beds, to permit the search after hidden treasure."

Union troops entered Columbia in an orderly manner with Sherman and his officers firmly in control. But shortly after the officers withdrew, the drinking and looting began. Those who took part in the looting of valuables claimed that the victors were entitled to the spoils of war. And Simms description of the looting of the city is bolstered by other reports as well as correspondence from Union soldiers. These excerpts are from a letter Union Lieutenant Thomas Myers wrote from Camden, S.C. after the burning of Columbia.

"My dear wife.we have had a glorious time in this State. Unrestricted license to burn and plunder was the order of the day.gold watches, silver pitchers, cups, spoons, forks, etc are as common as blackberries. The terms of plunder are as follows: Each company is required to exhibit the results of its operations at any given place, -one-fifth and first choice falls to the share of the commander-in-chief and staff, one-fifth to the corps commanders and staff, one-fifth to field officers of regiments, and two-fifths to the company." Then Lieutenant Myers makes this statement:

"Officers are not allowed to join these expeditions without disguising themselves as privates." And, finally, this telling comment:" General Sherman has silver and gold enough to start a bank. His share in gold watches alone at Columbia was two hundred and seventy-five."

Some smoldering cotton bales were found and quickly extinguished by Union troops when they took possession of the city but there were no other significant fires. However, shortly after dusk "while the Mayor was conversing with one of the Western men, from Iowa, three rockets were shot up by the enemy from the Capitol Square. As the soldier beheld these rockets, he cried out: "Alas! Alas! For your poor city! It is doomed. These rockets are the signal! The town is to be fired." Shortly thereafter, flames broke out around the city. "As the flames spread from house to house, you could behold, through long vistas of the lurid empire of flames and gloom, the miserable tenants of the once peaceful home issuing forth in dismay, bearing the chattels most useful or precious, and seeking escape through the narrow channels which the flames left them."

Not only were Union troops seen starting fires, they were also observed preventing firemen from extinguishing blazing buildings. "Engines and hose were brought out by the firemen, but these were soon driven from their labors-which were indeed idle against such a storm of fire-by the pertinacious hostility of the soldiers; the hose was hewn to pieces, and the foremen, dreading worse usage to themselves, left the field in despair."

But William Gilmore Simms didn’t paint all Union troops or officers with the same brush. Some were brutish but others showed respect and even outright disapproval of the behavior of their compatriots. Simms praises these Union soldiers, who ".to their credit, be it said, were truly sorrowful and sympathizing, who had labored for the safety of family and property, and who openly deplored the dreadful crime." Several Union officers tried to restrain their men and many of the soldiers were injured themselves while risking their own lives to help families escape from burning buildings that were collapsing around them. Often, Union soldiers shared their provisions with civilians and, to the extent possible, prevented them from being robbed while they were being led to safety.

"One of these mournful processions of fugitives was that of the sisterhood of the Ursuline Convent, the nuns and their pupils. Beguiled to the last moment by the promises and assurances of officers and others in Sherman’s army, the Mother Superior had clung to her house to the last possible moment." The nuns and their young girls were protected and led to a safe place by Union officers who professed to be Catholic Irish. These officers stood guard over the Mother Superior and her charges throughout the night.

Simms makes only a passing mention of "outrages" against women, black and white, that took place "in remote country settlements" far from the eyes of Union officers. He recounts "two cases" of young black women that tragically ended in death but this is not a subject he wants to pursue so he demurs:

"Horrid narratives of rape are given which we dare not attempt to individualize."

The fires as well as the vandalism continued unabated for almost 12 hours.

Around four in the morning, a distraught lady confronted a Union officer:

"In the name of God, sir, when is this work of hell to be ended?" "You will hear the bugles at sunrise" he replied, " when a guard will enter the town and withdraw these troops. It will then cease, and not before." " Sure enough, with the bugle’s sound, and the entrance of fresh bodies of troops, there was an instantaneous arrest of incendiarism. You could see the rioters carried off in groups and squads, from the several precincts they had ravaged."

The Sherman apologists ignore eyewitness reports of the immolation of Columbia as well as much of the devastation caused by Sherman’s famous "march to the sea." Instead, they quote self-serving entries in Sherman’s diary wherein he blames the fires on the retreating General Hampton’s Confederate army. To justify the looting that occurred throughout his march, Sherman claims that: "The country was sparsely settled, with no magistrates or civil authorities who could respond to requisitions, as is done in all the wars of Europe; so this system of foraging was simply indispensable to our success." This is totally false. Atlanta, Columbia, and all the smaller towns in between, had elected officials to whom requisitions could have been submitted. And they would not have been ignored.

As a graduate of West Point, Sherman surely knew that his conduct was illegal and grossly unethical. Comments from diaries and letters written during and after the march to the sea show that many of his junior officers and soldiers had lost respect for their Commander-in-Chief. Sherman later admitted that his placing the blame for the fire on retreating Confederate troops was false. And, in a curious statement made the day after the fire, when questioned about his involvement, Sherman said: "I did not burn your town, nor did my army. Your brothers, sons, husbands and fathers set fire to every city, town and village in the land when they fired on Fort Sumter. That fire kindled then and there by them has been burning ever since, and reached your houses last night."

Incredibly, William Tecumseh Sherman’s attacks on defenseless civilians are viewed by his apologists as an expedient military strategy. They laud Sherman for being the father of modern warfare; the term they use is "total war." They claim, falsely, that he only destroyed property and supplies that would aid the Confederate military effort which, sadly, might sometimes include non-military targets, i.e. innocent civilians. And even Sherman’s abusive acts against "non-military targets" are laundered by applying innocuous terms like "directed severity" and "collateral damage."

Some who try to exonerate Sherman often refer to reports of Sherman’s march as a "myth" enshrined in films like "Gone With the Wind." But the burning of Atlanta was not a myth nor was it a literary device created by Margaret Mitchell to heighten the dramatic effect of her novel. And in his memoirs, Sherman described the spectacle: "Behind us lay Atlanta, smouldering and in ruins, the black smoke rising high in air, and hanging like a pall over the ruined city."

Unable to concede that there could be any other interpretation of events except theirs, the apologists often employ one of contemporary society’s most overused ploys; implying that Southerners who hold opinions contrary to theirs do so because of sub-conscious psychological reasons. Assuming a clinical tone, one professor explains: "The reasons Southerners continue to embrace this myth are more elusive.for some it still continues to resonate, especially for whites discontented with "Second Reconstruction"; and for those unhappy with the rapid development and transformation of the South."

The sanitized legend of William Tecumseh Sherman was becoming almost as sacrosanct as the Lincoln mythology. But it began to erode in the 1960s and 1970s as a result of criticism, not from Southerners, but from northern liberals. These critics of the war in Vietnam compared Sherman’s operations in Georgia and the Carolinas to crimes committed by Americans in Vietnam. They called Sherman our first merchant of terror, the spiritual father of such hated doctrines as search and destroy.

In the 1870s, Congress held hearings to consider claims for property losses in Southern states as a result of the war. After investigating the facts, the government agreed "to compensate the Ursuline Order of Nuns for the destruction of their convent when much of Columbia, SC, was burned following the occupation of the city by Union soldiers in 1865." Although this was not an outright admission of guilt, it certainly implied improper behavior on the part of General Sherman’s army.

Scholarly disputes over the burning of Columbia persist to this day. But, although there are still unresolved issues, the story does have a happy ending. In 1867, a group of New York City firemen, mostly former Union soldiers, raised $2,500 for fire hose carriage as a gift, a "peace offering" , to the city of Columbia. Some of the firemen, and other New Yorkers, traveled to Columbia to formally present the new fire carriage. At the ceremonial presentation, they were officially welcomed by a former Confederate officer. After offering the city’s profound appreciation, he expressed hope that one day Columbia would be able to "obey that golden rule by which you have been prompted in the performance of this magnificent kindness to a people in distress."

That day finally came 134 years later when New York City lost 343 firefighters and 98 vehicles in the collapse of the World Trade Center. The city of Columbia, S.C. responded by raising $354,000 to purchase and present a state-of-the-art fire engine to New York City’s heroic fire department.


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To: agrandis
Nah, but you're moving up the list in a hurry.
101 posted on 06/22/2002 2:08:14 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: billbears
You're putting too much faith into one man, billbears. Even if he survives the wound he still misses Gettysburg so there is little doubt that the same mistakes are made there. Vicksburg still falls, Grant still kicks Bragg's butt at Chattanooga and comes east to take command. He still moves south in the spring and Sherman heads towards Atlanta. And the eventual results are the same. Jackson may delay it, but he can't prevent it all on his lonesome.
102 posted on 06/22/2002 2:11:53 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: curmudgeonII
They certainly had more choice than the people living in the hotels in New York City when Confederate agents attempted to incinerate them [with the occupants still inside].

Or the Charleston SC civilians bombarded for months by Federal batteries. Examples:

(1) "Miss Plane, the lady reported as injured from a shell on Christmas morning, died on Wednesday from the effects of the injuries received." (Charleston Courier, Dec 31, 1863, as reported in The Daily Picayune, Jan 17, 1864)

"The St. Philip Street school-house remained untouched. A frame house adjoining it has nevertheless been hit by one of the shells, and fears were entertained for the safety of the school-house. Shells were flying round it constantly during the bombardment. The teachers, however, still keep the school open and the little girls and boys attended it in great numbers very regularly." (From The New York Herald, as reported in The Daily Picayune, Feb 12, 1864)

"There have been lately two large fires in Charleston, caused by our shells. Deserters say the city is now divided into two districts, viz: 'in range' and 'out of range,' and that no other expression is used. Nine persons were killed a few nights since, and a large number wounded, including men, women, and children, and twelve homes burned to the ground." (Washington Republican, Feb 26, 1864, as reported in The Daily Picayune March 11, 1864)

I'm sure there are more examples of civilians being hurt by the Federal bombardment of Charleston. These were the ones I found in the few pages I have of the wartime New Orleans paper, The Daily Picayune.

103 posted on 06/22/2002 2:23:09 PM PDT by rustbucket
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To: Non-Sequitur
LOL! It's not so outrageous if you call ME a fool. It's calling great men of history "fools" for making hard decisions that gets me riled.
104 posted on 06/22/2002 6:39:31 PM PDT by agrandis
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To: moyden
I was born in Atlanta, Ga,

Nuff said. You're dismissed. I made the nearly fatal mistake of living in that liberal, Yankee Hell-hole for over a year.

105 posted on 06/22/2002 6:46:02 PM PDT by agrandis
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To: agrandis
"Very interesting story at the end of the article!"

Yes, it shows the real, true heart of the south.

106 posted on 06/22/2002 6:46:48 PM PDT by Aurelius
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To: rustbucket
#85 - Good post!

Deo vindice!

107 posted on 06/22/2002 6:51:24 PM PDT by agrandis
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To: SamAdams76
Another thing the neo-Rebs don't seem to understand is that the South is very important to this country.

Don't know what a "neo-Reb" is, but there is no doubt to the truth of your (under)statement that the "South is very important to this country." The North, meantime, and their waves in the metropolises of the South, are a hindrance to the South and West. I think since the North wouldn't let us be free of them, we should just kick them out of the Union next time. We (meaning we, the people of the South, not scalawags like Slick) like the Constitution, not Collectivism. We'd like to live under the Constitution, not Collectivism. May we choose to do that peacefully?

Now, about the term "neo-Reb:" If you are referring to Confederates, we have been Confederates for generations; there is nothing "neo" about it. And since we are the ones that wanted to preserve the Founders' dream, how are we the "rebels?"

108 posted on 06/22/2002 7:01:58 PM PDT by agrandis
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To: stand watie
Deo vindice, Cherokee and Confederate brother!
109 posted on 06/22/2002 7:05:37 PM PDT by agrandis
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To: agrandis
Don't know what a "neo-Reb" is

Neither do I, to tell you the truth. I was simply repeating the term used by the person who I was responding to in this thread. I probably shouldn't have repeated it.

110 posted on 06/22/2002 7:06:55 PM PDT by SamAdams76
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To: stand watie
the OTHER way would have been a vast offensive by partisans & guerrillas. we rebels could have held the wilderness & mountain areas of the country essentially forever;sooner or later the damnyankees would have given up trying to occupy our lands.

The more I learn of Robert E. Lee, the more I love him. He has to be one of the most noble men in all of history. I respect his tack after the war, and it made both moral and practical sense, but part of me has always disagreed with his rejection of guerilla warfare. He convinced a lot of Confederates to give up the idea.

Jesse James and a few stragglers who moved to Mexico just didn't a guerilla war make.

111 posted on 06/22/2002 7:10:33 PM PDT by agrandis
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To: curmudgeonII
My personal favorite "act of vandalism" by the freedom fighters was when Jeb Stuart captured a team of Federal pack horses, and captured an outpost in PA, I think it was. He sent a telegram to the White House, saying something to the effect that he liked the horses, and could they please send more as soon as possible. He signed off J.E.B. Stuart. I love Jeb Stuart - great guy! Everyone could take a lesson on how to lead, and how to deal with adversity from that man, even if you disagree with (or misunderstand) his cause.
112 posted on 06/22/2002 7:18:59 PM PDT by agrandis
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To: SamAdams76
Fair enough - I see it didn't originate from you.

BTW, I hope you and a handful of others will someday succeed in returning the Boston area to its 18th century love of liberty.

113 posted on 06/22/2002 7:22:03 PM PDT by agrandis
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To: Aurelius
Yes, it shows the real, true heart of the south.

It also shows that not all Yankees were blind to or approving of the suffering in the South. Just as not all Yankees today are blind to the complexities of the history or importance of the struggle to this day.

114 posted on 06/22/2002 7:25:23 PM PDT by agrandis
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To: agrandis
BTW, I hope you and a handful of others will someday succeed in returning the Boston area to its 18th century love of liberty.

I think the biggest problem here is all the colleges in town. Liberals send their kids here from all over the country and then they never leave because this is such a great place to live! Well, at least we haven't had a tax-and-spend Democrat in the governor's office since 1990 (Mike Dukakis). Things are looking good for Mitt Romney in November too.

BTW, Massachusetts is surprisingly conservative once you get outside the I-495 belt.

115 posted on 06/22/2002 7:56:30 PM PDT by SamAdams76
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To: stand watie
at least 5 CSA prisoners from my family were MURDERED while a POW at Point Lookout,MD.

My wife's great-grandfather is known to have died a prisoner at Point Lookout, but he is one of the many, many who died there that are not listed on the records.

stand watie, I found the following that might interest you in a Feb 27, 1864 issue of The Daily Picayune newspaper from New Orleans. They were reporting something published in the Chicago Tribune of the 18th (I think they mean Feb 18th).

Among our prisoners are about 100 copperfaced, bareheaded and barefooted Indians from the smoky mountains of North Carolina. Such savage wretches should never be taken prisoners. They will be sent north with the rebel deserters.

The article doesn't say exactly where the Feds captured the Indians. The article has the title, "The War in East Tennessee" and indicates the information came from a letter from Knoxville. The last part of the paragraph I excerpted above mentioned the locations of Kingston, Crab Orchard, and Jacksboro. What I listed above is the only part that mentions the Indians.

116 posted on 06/22/2002 8:12:40 PM PDT by rustbucket
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To: agrandis
If Davis is your idea of a great man of history then I question your standards in that area.
117 posted on 06/23/2002 3:53:50 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: agrandis
...when Jeb Stuart captured a team of Federal pack horses, and captured an outpost in PA...

And when Stuart presented all these horses and wagons to Lee a few days later following the second day at Gettysburg, Lee is supposed to have said simply, "General, they are an impediment to me now." That because Stuart was joyriding instead of scouting out the Union army, wasn't it? As a result Lee got surprised at Gettysburg and the rest is history.

118 posted on 06/23/2002 3:58:03 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Non-Sequitur
The Stuart story I'm referring to was way before Gettysburg. Yes, he did screw up at Gettysburg. That fool! You wouldn't have, would you?

If Davis is your idea of a great man of history then I question your standards in that area.

That means a lot to me.

119 posted on 06/23/2002 7:47:24 AM PDT by agrandis
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To: agrandis
The Stuart story I'm referring to was way before Gettysburg.

You mentioned an outpost in Pennsylvania. As far as I know the only time Stuart was in Pennsylvania was during the Gettysburg campaign.

You wouldn't have, would you?

Probably not. I would have been fighting for the Union against the rebellion.

120 posted on 06/23/2002 10:13:24 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: agrandis
RETURNED!

for a FREE dixie,sw

121 posted on 06/23/2002 11:04:40 AM PDT by stand watie
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To: agrandis
very true! 'ole nate forrest and his forces badly wanted to "head into the mountains and raise hell"! i suspect if he had, dixie would have been free within ten years or less.

for dixie,sw

122 posted on 06/23/2002 11:07:00 AM PDT by stand watie
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To: rustbucket
blacks,jews,latinos & indians in rebel uniform were ROUTINELY murdered at time of capture, or shortly thereafter, by the damnyankees.

frankly, i'm surprised that the "filth that came down from the north" bothered to send my relatives to Point Lookout for "proper disposition", but they did in at least those 5 cases!

at Point Lookout DEATH Camp the USUAL method of killing prisoners was evidently by DROWNING. persons in the sickened/wounded/half-starved condition of the POWs were EASY for two guards to drown and it was QUIET.

SHOOTING in the back of the head, with a pistol, was likely second in frequency of ways to kill a prisoner, but around a prison camp shots provoked "questions", especially if the shots were heard after dark.

BAYONETING was probably third in frequency of execution methods, but that method was also NOISY!

yesterday afternoon, i talked to a ranger at PL and he said every time it rains or floods that more bones are washed up to be visible on the surface;it is "just routine", according to the staffmember.

it WAS once my guess from comparing entrance/admittance records of POWs, deducting those transferred to another place of confinement,died of "natural causes & wounds" & those POWs released from PL that at least 14,000 POWs were murdered (the War Department called those persons "mysteriously disappearred"---does any reader believe that ANY prison warden would accept "mysteriously disappearred" as a LAWFUL disposition of ANY confined person at any confinement facility?).

based on my recent conversations with the staff of the PLPOWC museum and the rangers/maintaince personnel of the PL State Park & Historical Site, i now believe that number is FAR too low, given the routine nature of "summary execution" of racial/religious & ethnic minority CSA servicemembers, upon arrival or shortly thereafter,at the POW camp.

the ACTUAL number of those MURDERED will, imVho,NEVER be known with any certainty.

for TRUTH & REMEMBERENCE,sw

123 posted on 06/23/2002 11:46:28 AM PDT by stand watie
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To: agrandis
i prefer "PALEO-confederate"! nothing "neo" about it in my family, at least.

FREE dixie NOW,sw

124 posted on 06/23/2002 11:51:45 AM PDT by stand watie
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To: Non-Sequitur
for all his problems (& he had many sadnesses in his life, which affected him greatly), Jeff Davis on his worst day was a 100 times better man than lincoln,the tyrant,bigot,racist & war criminal.

for dixie LIBERTY,sw

125 posted on 06/23/2002 11:55:58 AM PDT by stand watie
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To: agrandis
WELL SAID!

for dixie,sw

126 posted on 06/23/2002 11:56:43 AM PDT by stand watie
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To: agrandis
Go to the bottom line. War is about breaking the enemy's will to fight. Burning civilan homes and crops, yes, by all means if it will end the war and stop the slaughter.

You armchair Generals did'nt live in the time, did'nt bury the bodies, and did'nt see the maimed on a daily basis as did those who had to fight that war. "Civilized" warfare died bewteen 1861-1865. Kill your enemy , burn his houses, crops and farms.

Destroy his will to fight, or end up like we did in Vietnam, "nuetered" by a politcal policy that favored "civilized warfare"--50,000 dead to follow the "rules"...What an idiot concept. And I'm not talking about rape, execute the bastards who do that. Wholesale property destruction to save your and my son's lives? Absolutely.

Johnston and Hooker failed in their orders to stop Sherman. Sherman did what he knew would end the war as quickly as possible.

Damn Hooker and Johnson for failing, not Sherman for winning.

127 posted on 06/23/2002 12:30:58 PM PDT by Rebelbase
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To: Rebelbase
"Civilized" warfare died bewteen 1861-1865. Kill your enemy , burn his houses, crops and farms.

Probably so. The following 1863 instructions for US Army behavior in the field seem to have been disobeyed (or else appropriate Federal officers authorized barbarism).

Art. 16. Military necessity does not admit of cruelty -- that is, the infliction of suffering for the sake of suffering or for revenge, nor of maiming or wounding except in fight, nor of torture to extort confessions. It does not admit of the use of poison in any way, nor of the wanton devastation of a district. It admits of deception, but disclaims acts of perfidy; and, in general, military necessity does not include any act of hostility which makes the return to peace unnecessarily difficult.

Art. 22. Nevertheless, as civilization has advanced during the last centuries, so has likewise steadily advanced, especially in war on land, the distinction between the private individual belonging to a hostile country and the hostile country itself, with its men in arms. The principle has been more and more acknowledged that the unarmed citizen is to be spared in person, property, and honor as much as the exigencies of war will admit.

Art. 24. The almost universal rule in remote times was, and continues to be with barbarous armies, that the private individual of the hostile country is destined to suffer every privation of liberty and protection, and every disruption of family ties. Protection was, and still is with uncivilized people, the exception.

Art. 38. Private property, unless forfeited by crimes or by offenses of the owner, can be seized only by way of military necessity, for the support or other benefit of the army or of the United States.

If the owner has not fled, the commanding officer will cause receipts to be given, which may serve the spoliated owner to obtain indemnity.

Art. 44. All wanton violence committed against persons in the invaded country, all destruction of property not commanded by the authorized officer, all robbery, all pillage or sacking, even after taking a place by main force, all rape, wounding, maiming, or killing of such inhabitants, are prohibited under the penalty of death, or such other severe punishment as may seem adequate for the gravity of the offense.

%$#@* Federal barbarians.

128 posted on 06/23/2002 2:12:16 PM PDT by rustbucket
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To: Rebelbase
Re:#127...Hooker=Hood.
129 posted on 06/23/2002 5:05:03 PM PDT by Rebelbase
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To: stand watie
Well, when if comes to racism I'll grant you the 100 time more racist than Lincoln. When it comes to tyranny I'll grant you he was 100 times the tyrant that Lincoln was. When it comes to war crimes I'll agree that his crimes were 100 times worse than Lincoln's. So in those areas he was 100 times the man Lincoln was. But I myself wouldn't consider that something to be proud of.
130 posted on 06/23/2002 5:18:58 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Rebelbase
When did this 'civilized' warfare ever begin? European armies burned, looted, plundered, raped, and pillaged from one end of the continent to another for centuries prior to the Civil War. Spanish, English, and French settlers exterminated Indians by the carload in North America, and did the same throughout Asia. Napoleon's army commanders were noted plunderers. This whole idea that somehow civilians were protected prior to the Civil War is wishful thinking.
131 posted on 06/23/2002 5:33:26 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: moyden
3. The South lost and we are all the better for it. Get over it.

The end of slavery in this country would have been an inevitable consequence of the industrial revolution whether or not slavery was legal. Once concentrated sources of power became available, they became much cheaper than slaves which--even after they were bought--had to be fed, clothed, sheltered, and otherwise provided for.

Aside from its acceptance of the already-installed (and already-obsolescent) institution of slavery, what else do you find objectionable about the Confederacy?

132 posted on 06/23/2002 8:53:40 PM PDT by supercat
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To: supercat
The end of slavery down south would have required a cheaper alternative for the requirements of plantation agriculture. Cotton farming was a labor intensive process and one which defied automation - the first mechanical cotton-picker was not introduced until the mid 1940's. So absent a cheaper and more convenient source of labor, or a collapse in the profitability of growing cotton, there would have been no incentive for the south to abandon slavery for decades after the war.
133 posted on 06/24/2002 7:38:55 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Rebelbase
i would guess then that you favor WAR CRIMES?

savagery in war only makes for hatred among the vanquished;that savagery is why we southrons after almost 150 years are still desirous of LIBERTY from the northern oppressors.

FREE the south NOW,sw

134 posted on 06/24/2002 8:25:11 AM PDT by stand watie
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To: Non-Sequitur
why do you keep repeating this SILLY lie?

the first mechanical cottonpicker was patented in the 1850s-it required a team of 8-12 mules and ONE person to operate the machine. anybody,with the time to look up the patent records, can do so.

the industrial revolution, NOT damnyankee bayonets ended slavery.

for dixie LIBERTY>

135 posted on 06/24/2002 8:29:12 AM PDT by stand watie
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To: Non-Sequitur
the ONLY reason the mechanical cottonpicker was NOT used in the south after the WBTS was that the filthy,hateful damnyankees had so destroyed the economy that nobody could afford one!

FREE dixie NOW,sw

136 posted on 06/24/2002 8:36:29 AM PDT by stand watie
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To: stand watie
The first successful mechanical cotton picker was not introduced until the mid-1940's. The patent you speak of was for a machine that was totally impractical for the purpose it was supposed to be used for. Southern dependence on slavery was due to southern preference, not due to any sort of northern conspiracy.
137 posted on 06/24/2002 8:46:06 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: stand watie
War is a crime. Get over it.
138 posted on 06/24/2002 9:33:51 AM PDT by Rebelbase
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To: Rebelbase
in other words you think 9-11 was OK???? and osama bin laden is a FINE fellow???

for a free dixie,sw

139 posted on 06/24/2002 9:51:04 AM PDT by stand watie
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To: stand watie
You are *way* off base comparing 9/11 and Osama to Sherman in Ga, 1864. Like I said earlier, blame Hood and Johston for failing, not Sherman for winning.
140 posted on 06/24/2002 9:55:48 AM PDT by Rebelbase
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To: Non-Sequitur
and you know OF YOUR OWN EXPERTISE that what you posted is CORRECT?

my understanding is that the machine worked just fine thank you very much. this according to the agricultural machinery docent at the Smithsonan Museum of American History.

don't be blinded to FACTS by your unreasoning dis-like of southrons and all things southron.

you of all people should be working EVERY DAY for southron liberty;you'll be much happier when the Southron Republic is across an international border!

141 posted on 06/24/2002 9:56:34 AM PDT by stand watie
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To: Rebelbase
NOPE, i'm NOT off base.

BOTH were WAR CRIMINALS, who believed in the rightness of their cause and were willing to do ANYTHING to advance that cause! ANYTHING, no matter how SAVAGE, UNCIVILIZED OR EVIL!

of course lincoln & stanton were WORSE than sherman, but not by much. the Nurenburg trials found as a matter of LAW, that those who CARRY OUT unlawful orders are just as CRIMINAL as those who gave the orders.

for a FREE dixie REPUBLIC,sw

142 posted on 06/24/2002 10:01:33 AM PDT by stand watie
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To: stand watie
and you know OF YOUR OWN EXPERTISE that what you posted is CORRECT?

Yes.

you of all people should be working EVERY DAY for southron liberty;you'll be much happier when the Southron Republic is across an international border!

No.

143 posted on 06/24/2002 10:05:09 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Non-Sequitur
yep, you'll be MUCH happier;trust me on this. you can cuss us to your heart's content BUT we won't care, as we will be FREE!

since when are you an expert on mid-19th century agricultual machines;alternatively, are you EXPERT on EVERYTHING?

most damnyankees/scalawags/revisionists SAY they are experts on everything southron;why should you be different?

for a FREE dixie,sw

144 posted on 06/24/2002 10:10:03 AM PDT by stand watie
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To: stand watie
Why should I let you and your ilk take part of my country and walk off with it? I suppose in your fertile southron imagination that you expect to walk off with 10 or 12 states regardless of what the people living there may hve to say, repudiating obligations and appropriating property just like 135 years ago. Sorry, but you were wrong then and would be wrong again.
145 posted on 06/24/2002 10:17:07 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: stand watie
Robert E. Lee FAILED.
Joe Johnston FAILED
John Hood FAILED
Longstreet FAILED
Forrest FAILED

All were Southern failures when it came to the big test, winning the war.

Whats wrong with burning the enemy's homeland to end a war? Southern Honor at stake? What a selfish "ooh it feels so good to be a southern gentelman" pile of BS. Burn buildings, destroy crops, destroy industry....Do what it takes to end any war and save lives.

And since you're so fond of making comparisons to WWII, how about Hiroshima, was that a War Crime? Innocents killed, homes destroyed..but you probably think its ok, being a high altitude bomb, its kind of sterile, no romance to it at all.

146 posted on 06/24/2002 10:18:39 AM PDT by Rebelbase
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To: Rebelbase
pardon me, but your IGNORANCE of the Law of War is showing.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were BOTH legitimate targets of war, as was Dresdan. ALL three were legitimate targets because:

1.there were well-established military installations there,

2.each was an established supply base for an organized military force (SORRY, being a "food source" does NOT count-agricultural activities are NOT military targets, under the LoW!) AND

3. all three cities were contained CRITICAL manufacturing plants of a military nature.

(in case you haven't figured out by now, i used to teach LoW @ USAMPS & USARSEUR.)

for dixie,sw

147 posted on 06/24/2002 10:28:18 AM PDT by stand watie
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To: stand watie
Atlanta was a manufacturing and transportation hub, not to mention beign full of Johnston's troops when Sherman arrived. By your definition then it was a legitimate military target.
148 posted on 06/24/2002 10:35:12 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: stand watie
"pardon me, but your IGNORANCE of the Law of War is showing"

The winner gets to define how the Law of War is applied and its existance does'nt mean it will be applied to the letter. Look at all the Japaneses "war crimes" (or what should have been considered crimes) that went unpunished.

In case you have'nt noticed, I've never taught LoW, and don't give a damn who has.

149 posted on 06/24/2002 10:39:08 AM PDT by Rebelbase
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To: stand watie
"pardon me, but your IGNORANCE of the Law of War is showing"

The winner gets to define how the Law of War is applied and its existance does'nt mean it will be applied to the letter. Look at all the Japaneses "war crimes" (or what should have been considered crimes) that went unpunished.

In case you have'nt noticed, I've never taught LoW, and don't give a damn who has.

150 posted on 06/24/2002 10:42:04 AM PDT by Rebelbase
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