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A 'Marriage Strike' Emerges As Men Decide Not To Risk Loss
The Philadelphia Inquirer ^ | July 5, 2002 | Glenn Sacks and Dianna Thompson

Posted on 07/06/2002 5:00:19 AM PDT by buccaneer81

A 'marriage strike' emerges as men decide not to risk loss

By Glenn Sacks and Dianna Thompson

Katherine is attractive, successful, witty, and educated. She also can't find a husband. Why? Because most of the men this thirtysomething software analyst dates do not want to get married. These men have Peter Pan syndrome: They refuse to commit, refuse to settle down, and refuse to "grow up."

However, given the family court policies and divorce trends of today, Peter Pan is no naive boy, but instead a wise man.

"Why should I get married and have kids when I could lose those kids and most of what I've worked for at a moment's notice?" asks Dan, a 31-year-old power plant technician who says he will never marry.

"I've seen it happen to many of my friends. I know guys who came home one day to an empty house or apartment - wife gone, kids gone. They never saw it coming. Some of them were never able to see their kids regularly again."

Census figures suggest that the marriage rate in the United States has dipped 40 percent during the last four decades to its lowest point since the rate was measured. There are many plausible explanations for this trend, but one of the least mentioned is that American men, in the face of a family court system hopelessly stacked against them, have subconsciously launched a "marriage strike."

It is not difficult to see why. Let's say that Dan defies Peter Pan, marries Katherine, and has two children. There is a 50 percent likelihood that this marriage will end in divorce within eight years, and if it does, the odds are 2-1 it will be Katherine, not Dan, who initiates the divorce. It may not matter that Dan was a decent husband. Studies show that few divorces are initiated over abuse or because the man has already abandoned the family. Nor is adultery cited as a factor by divorcing women appreciably more than by divorcing men.

While the courts may grant Dan and Katherine joint legal custody, the odds are overwhelming that it is Katherine, not Dan, who will win physical custody. Overnight, Dan, accustomed to seeing his kids every day and being an integral part of their lives, will become a "14 percent dad" - a father who is allowed to spend only one out of every seven days with his own children.

Once Katherine and Dan are divorced, odds are at least even that Katherine will interfere with Dan's visitation rights.

Three-quarters of divorced men surveyed say their ex-wives have interfered with their visitation, and 40 percent of mothers studied admitted that they had done so, and that they had generally acted out of spite or in order to punish their exes.

Katherine will keep the house and most of the couple's assets. Dan will need to set up a new residence and pay at least a third of his take-home pay to Katherine in child support.

As bad as all of this is, it would still make Dan one of the lucky ones. After all, he could be one of those fathers who cannot see his children at all because his ex has made a false accusation of domestic violence, child abuse, or child molestation. Or a father who can only see his own children under supervised visitation or in nightmarish visitation centers where dads are treated like criminals.

He could be one of those fathers whose ex has moved their children hundreds or thousands of miles away, in violation of court orders, which courts often do not enforce. He could be one of those fathers who tears up his life and career again and again in order to follow his children, only to have his ex-wife continually move them.

He could be one of the fathers who has lost his job, seen his income drop, or suffered a disabling injury, only to have child support arrearages and interest pile up to create a mountain of debt which he could never hope to pay off. Or a father who is forced to pay 70 percent or 80 percent of his income in child support because the court has imputed an unrealistic income to him. Or a dad who suffers from one of the child support enforcement system's endless and difficult to correct errors, or who is jailed because he cannot keep up with his payments. Or a dad who reaches old age impoverished because he lost everything he had in a divorce when he was middle-aged and did not have the time and the opportunity to earn it back.

"It's a shame," Dan says. "I always wanted to be a father and have a family. But unless the laws change and give fathers the same right to be a part of their children's lives as mothers have, it just isn't worth the risk."

Dianna Thompson is the founder and executive director of the American Coalition for Fathers and Children. She can be contacted by e-mail at DThompson2232@aol.com. Glenn Sacks writes about gender issues from the male perspective. He invites readers' comments at Glenn@GlennSacks.com.


TOPICS: Chit/Chat
KEYWORDS: donutwatch
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To: Tennessee_Bob
What I always found laughable was the young women at school that were dating some absolute a##holes - guys that were verbally and physically abusive, guys that were dating more than one woman - and making a point of letting everyone know - and the women complaining about it. If he's so bad, why stick with him? And the answer, almost every time, would be "Oh, I know he'll change," or "well, there's no one else."

it's not just true in your area only ... it's an amazing process to watch ... unbelievable ...
251 posted on 07/06/2002 10:20:25 AM PDT by Bobby777
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To: TJFLSTRAT
LOL! I'll bet your absolutely correct. In fact, I'll guarantee you're correct. There was a woman that I went out with about four times - until she found out that (at that time) I was working part-time as a student worker for a $7.50 an hour. Suddenly, she didn't return calls or answer the phone anymore.
252 posted on 07/06/2002 10:22:12 AM PDT by Tennessee_Bob
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To: Dark Mirage
Come on! what man in his right mind would want some liberal "Femmeroid" to give birth to his offspring!
253 posted on 07/06/2002 10:23:00 AM PDT by TJFLSTRAT
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To: Nick Danger
If she says her father was a jerk, or a drunkard, or any other sort of miscreant, head for the hills immediately and do not look back. You will never do better than her father.

That's my ex to a tee. Plus, she idolizes her mother who is a bitter man-hating woman.

254 posted on 07/06/2002 10:24:25 AM PDT by buccaneer81
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To: SauronOfMordor
Geez, I guess I am naive or I hang out with the wrong crowd cause I don't know anywhere near the number of immoral, screw around women who cheat,do drugs and abuse their children and husbands in their quest to humping everything in sight and stealing a good mans money as this thread claims. What do you guys do cruise the prision grounds or red light district looking for a wife?
255 posted on 07/06/2002 10:25:59 AM PDT by SouthernFreebird
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To: SouthernFreebird
Nah - we live in the real world.
256 posted on 07/06/2002 10:29:37 AM PDT by Tennessee_Bob
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To: SouthernFreebird
The "Rape" is about how middle and upper middle class men lose their kids almost always unless the wife is incredibly unstable or in prison..LOL. We pay large child support totally unaccounted for sometimes to women who don't need it. Also, why should we have to liquidate everything to give our ex-wife 50% of everything? Rape is perhaps too strong an analogy but in the middle class strata, all things being equal, the leverage is in the woman's court. It simply is. I speak from experience and observance. Now amongst lower economic classes and particularly what we call white trash down here, I've seen many women basically dumped with the whole package by shiftless men who never cared whether they had their children or not. The men simply create a mess and leave it behind to go create another one. This is also undeniably endemic in the lower black classes. Now we all know the stereotype about the middle aged doctor who dumps his wife of 25 years unceremoniously for the young nurse and indeed it does happen but believe me if the middle aged doc wishes to have a newer model wife, he will almost certainly pay handsomely for that privilege. The news media is rife with stories about how much wealthy older men must shell out to the last wife on a trade-in whther there are minority aged children involved or not.
257 posted on 07/06/2002 10:30:58 AM PDT by wardaddy
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To: Tennessee_Bob
Heard a comedian one time explaining that "sex for money is cheaper than sex for free."

They found actor Michael Douglas on the list of clients of that "Hollywood Madam" they busted a few years ago. Some reporter asked him why, since he could have his pick of any starlet in Hollywood, he would ever pay for sex. He said, "I don't pay them to have sex. I pay them to leave afterwards."

258 posted on 07/06/2002 10:31:01 AM PDT by Nick Danger
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To: buccaneer81
If she says her father was a jerk, or a drunkard, or any other sort of miscreant,...... That's my ex to a tee. Plus, she idolizes her mother who is a bitter man-hating woman.

woman married to a drunkard man ends up bitter man-hater....... hmmmmmmmmm go figure

259 posted on 07/06/2002 10:32:48 AM PDT by SouthernFreebird
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To: Dark Mirage
Just because we tell horror stories does not mean we are axe murderers.

I am happy to say that I am happily married now... I have always enjoyed the company of a good woman, when such was available, and have conducted myself responsibly.

It is a pity that so many decent folks on both sides of the gender line fall victim to the unscrupulous and/or irresponsible nature of others. I am sure that there are horror shows on both sides.

But if marriage, as an institution, or as a relationship is to survive, both sides need to avoid the polarization the feminazis and hardcore mysoginists would inflict on the population.

This benefits no one except "sympthetic" lesbians ond homosexuals who have their own agenda in severing ties between the sexes and breaking down traditional families and values.

Each case should be taken on a case-by-case basis, but without the gender bias found to date in the courts. There are signs that this may be waning, but it is too early to say.

Clean the slate, take out the trash, and remember the lessons learned. Don't pass on hatred, or you, and everyone around you loses.

If I have failed to follow my own advice, my apologies to all.

260 posted on 07/06/2002 10:32:52 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe
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Comment #261 Removed by Moderator

To: buccaneer81
That's what happened to me. I could write a book. She snatched my son and I pay $940 a month to her and the boyfriend. Life is good!

Society has a problem when one might consider prison as a desirable solution to this situation. $940 per month is WAY more than it costs to cloth and feed a kid.

262 posted on 07/06/2002 10:35:08 AM PDT by meyer
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To: Bobby777
Very young women are attracted to bad boys. That game doesn't sell so well after say age 30 or so. Women get smarter, they want someone they can trust or depend on. I know a lot of lonely bad boys over the age of 35 or 40. Men on the other hand can always be counted on to chase the hen with the prettiest feathers....whether it's good for them or not.
263 posted on 07/06/2002 10:37:21 AM PDT by wardaddy
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To: meyer
$940 per month is WAY more than it costs to cloth and feed a kid.

Yeah, and she makes 40k to boot.

264 posted on 07/06/2002 10:40:15 AM PDT by buccaneer81
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To: buccaneer81
Amen!

Here is how divorce should work: all physical assets and liabilities accumulated during the marriage get split exactly down the middle, including kids. If the first child is a boy, he goes with Dad; if a girl, she goes with Mom. The second child, regardless of gender, goes with the opposite parent, and this continues right down to the last child. There would be no court-ordered visitation rights, so the parents would have to act like adults and cooperate with each other because the woman would not have the kids to use as a bargaining chip anymore. And there would be no child-support payments, because the kids are split up. That's how it should work, plain and simple. Make it predictable, cold, harsh, unemotional, and businesslike. (This all assumes, of course, that neither parent has been convicted in a court of law of any felony crimes. If they have, they forfeit their parental rights.)
265 posted on 07/06/2002 10:45:45 AM PDT by DennisR
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Comment #266 Removed by Moderator

To: College Repub
Can't Pre-nup's take care of this?

Pre-nups can address some of this, if they're properly drafted and the court upholds them. However, it is very common for the court to decide that the pre-nup shouldn't be enforced for any number of reasons--for example, the man and the woman should each have their own lawyer rather than having one lawyer write the agreement for both of them.

Plus state laws vary, so what's valid in one state might not be in another. And some states limit the length of time that a pre-nup can be enforced. I believe, for example, that California law kills all pre-nups after seven years of marriage. Supposedly, that was one of the reasons Tom Cruise divorced Nicole Kidman--their seventh anniversary was approaching and he didn't want her to escape the limits of their pre-nup.

267 posted on 07/06/2002 10:49:33 AM PDT by the bottle let me down
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To: wardaddy
got a buddy who won't date anyone under 35 ... all I hear from him is how wacko they are ... and he dates a lot ... so I say "well try younger" ... he sez "no way, it won't work" ... I say "so what are you going to do?" ...

he was married for about 20 years ... wife up and left him ... he's a fairly decent guy ... we all went to church together ... he was begging her not to break the marriage .. she told me she was "waiting for some sort of sign" ... I suggested that him begging not to destroy the marriage was a pretty obvious sign ... well, it turned out not to be enough ...

just like "Ghostbusters" ... world turned upside down, left is right, right is wrong, dogs and cats living together and a 35-foot long Twinkie ...
268 posted on 07/06/2002 10:50:02 AM PDT by Bobby777
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Comment #269 Removed by Moderator

To: SouthernFreebird
"In a nutshell men don't want to pay if they aren't milking the cow..."

True story. But is it not also true that women marry men for the express purpose of having children and having him work and pay to raise them? I am not saying that they do not love the man, but if the man they loved said "No" to having children--whether is was during dating or after marriage--what would the woman do? How would she feel?

And in the interest of full disclosure, I am divorced and have two married daughters. They were past the age of child support when my wife divorced me.
270 posted on 07/06/2002 10:54:55 AM PDT by DennisR
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To: buccaneer81
I've seen far too many of my (male) friends get taken to the cleaners in a divorce. These guys are doctors, and believe me, the court will happily hand over everything they have and don't have to an ex-wife. I never married, had a few close calls, but at this stage of my life, in my forties, I've decided it isn't worth it.

My attorney (also a divorce lawyer) agrees. He only half-jokingly tells me if I ever get married to spend a lot of money on a prenuptial agreement...it justs makes a divorce a more lucrative challenge for a good divorce attorney.

271 posted on 07/06/2002 10:55:38 AM PDT by Jesse
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To: buccaneer81
This is a very sad aspect of the Feminist War on reality. The net result is to destroy the basis for an ongoing social order. There is no possibility for continuity in any social order, but through the medium of the family.

See The Feminist Absurdity, for an analysis of the irrationality of Feminism. See The Lies Of Socialism, for the more general Leftist War on reality.

It is obvious from a great many psychological signs, that we are designed to seek mates; that that pursuit is the most important pursuit in life. Where so many rationalize reasons to forgo the quest, we have a very sick society. This needs to be addressed; but of course it will not be, until we start electing hard nosed Conservatives to a lot more positions of authority.

William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site

272 posted on 07/06/2002 11:00:45 AM PDT by Ohioan
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To: Wondervixen
outsiders need to butt out and leave things alone

I agree 100%. But I have yet to see a woman without a committee. There is at least one, usually more, that knows how to hint, then retreat, suggest, then retreat, tell a negative tale, then retreat, until the woman has for all practical purposes made a decison and thinks it is her own. I know this because I have eavesdropped, shamelessly. And when you confront her with the conversation, she is totally unaware anything like that went on and will deny it vehemently.

273 posted on 07/06/2002 11:03:29 AM PDT by William Terrell
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To: DennisR
I'd say in a nutshell, men don't want to be a walking cash machine to support the distant life-style of a random human being ...

if the court laws were reversed 180 degrees, I'll bet there would be fewer of these type comments ... I weep for our society ... we're done for ... even if one achieves a successful marriage, the children will be subject to this self-imploding line of reasoning that our courts promulgate ...
274 posted on 07/06/2002 11:05:00 AM PDT by Bobby777
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To: per loin
My brother works with a guy who has to sleep in his car in order to pay his child support. Something needs to be done about things like this. Men are human, too! I say this, and I am female.
275 posted on 07/06/2002 11:12:14 AM PDT by tessalu
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To: meyer
Has the women's vote caused this?

Good question!! It could be true. Many women pay little attention to politics and politicians. They trust the advice of Oprah, Katie Couric, the local NEA, or any "strong" NOW actvist to whom the media give face time. Being easily swayed politically, many women also have very strong "herd instincts" - making them a great Voting Bloc! And with their preferred "minority status" there are politicians falling all over themselves to accommodate their wishes.

276 posted on 07/06/2002 11:14:06 AM PDT by bimbo
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To: William Terrell
And when you confront her with the conversation, she is totally unaware anything like that went on and will deny it vehemently.

She's aware. She just thinks that by denying, you will beleive her and think that no such conversation ever takes place.

277 posted on 07/06/2002 11:14:44 AM PDT by meyer
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To: buccaneer81; Prodigal Daughter; Thinkin' Gal; Jeremiah Jr; Crazymonarch; babylonian; mancini; ...
Wait until the feminist agenda includes strengthening the notion of common-law marriages.

Some basic FAQs:

If my partner and I live together long enough, won't we have a common law marriage?

Contrary to popular belief, even if two people live together for a certain number of years, if they don't intend to be married and present themselves to others as a married couple, there is no common law marriage. More particularly, a common law marriage can occur only when:

1. a heterosexual couple lives together in a state that recognizes common law marriages
2. for a significant period of time (not defined in any state)
3. holding themselves out as a married couple -- typically this means using the same last name, referring to the other as "my husband" or "my wife" and filing a joint tax return, and
4. intending to be married.

Unless all four are true, there is no common law marriage. When a common law marriage exists, the couple must go through a formal divorce to end the relationship.

Which states recognize common law marriage? Common law marriage is recognized only in the following states:

Alabama
Colorado
District of Columbia
Georgia (if created before 1/1/97)
Idaho (if created before 1/1/96)
Iowa
Kansas
Montana
New Hampshire (for inheritance purposes only)
Ohio (if created before 10/10/91)
Oklahoma
Pennsylvania
Rhode Island
South Carolina
Texas
Utah

278 posted on 07/06/2002 11:15:43 AM PDT by Hostage
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To: FITZ
Men who choose poorly shouldn't complain so much about the consequences of their own choices

Permit me a bit of reductio ad absurdum. For what you said to make sense, there has to be some reasonable association between the size of the mistake and the size of the penalty for making it. What this thread is about is that the penalty for making these sorts of mistakes has been increasing, to the point where they are now quite onerous and intolerable, but seemingly only for men (with some minuscule number of exceptions). My question is, at what point does it no longer make sense to pretend that men are not only responsible for making the mistake, but they are prohibited from complaining about the size of the penalty for making it, or about the fact that they are singled out by sex to pay the entire penalty for what was probably a two-person mistake?

Suppose tomorrow it is decided that a divorcing woman may, as easily as she can now get a restraining order, have her husband shot. She goes down to the courthouse, fills out a little form, and they send a sheriff out to shoot the husband dead. I agree that today this seems preposterous, but maybe in ten years or so this will be seen as the next logical step. At that point, will you still be saying that, "Well, men have to live with the consequences. They have to be more careful about whom they marry." It just seems to me that at some point that whole line of argument becomes ridiculous. If we have young men avoiding marriage in droves, that is a signal that it is already ridiculous.

I don't think this discussion is useful to the extent that we pretend that we're fixing anything by telling people that they need to make better decisions. We might save a few heartaches doing that, but we are not going to produce perfect people, and human beings are not going to stop making mistakes. The issue is more properly what system awaits those who make such mistakes, however many there are. Even if there were only one divorce per year in the United States, we would not want it to be administered by government in as unjust and capricious a fashion as is the norm today.


279 posted on 07/06/2002 11:20:17 AM PDT by Nick Danger
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To: Bobby777
I can prove femminists are phonies with just one word; ALIMONY!
280 posted on 07/06/2002 11:22:22 AM PDT by TJFLSTRAT
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To: Hostage
Where did you get the common law marriage points you posted?

281 posted on 07/06/2002 11:27:32 AM PDT by William Terrell
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To: All
When I read articles like this my heart breaks. Unfortunately people do too much complaining and whining and not enough praying. I prayed for a husband for five years, and he too, since he was eight years old. We're going on five years strong. Of course I am a rookie with little experience but I think if people would just pray about all their needs, leave it in the Lord's hands, trust, when the prayer is answered to continue to ask for his assistance, go to marriage seminars, seek counsel from happily married older couples, read relationship books and treat your marriage as if it is the most important thing under God in your life, you can make it. Please forgive me if I have stepped on toes or appear preachy. I just love my husband more than the world and this is what has worked for us. All I can say is pray,pray, pray.
282 posted on 07/06/2002 11:28:33 AM PDT by diamond6
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To: edstet
In order for the multinationals to flourish they must get you to buy stuff you dont need. Family structures mitigate this consumption pressure hence they have been successfully destroyed

Ah, dammit, you told 'em. Well, now that the cat's out of the bag, I might as well 'fess up. I used to sit on board of Amalgamated General, and yes, we used to sit around planning the destruction of the American family so we could sell more fried bananas. We figured the more divorces there were, the more unmarried men there would be living alone in apartments; and that's who eats fried bananas. It was us who made Bill Clinton president. We wanted those soccer moms to swoon. They'd get dissatisfied with their measly doctor and lawyer husbands, and presto -- some cleaned-out men and more fried banana sales.

Und how long have you been haffink zees dreams?


283 posted on 07/06/2002 11:30:56 AM PDT by Nick Danger
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To: TJFLSTRAT
LOL ... and true ...
284 posted on 07/06/2002 11:31:11 AM PDT by Bobby777
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To: Nick Danger
Und how long have you been haffink zees dreams?

More like this: Is it safe? AAAAAGGGH! Is it safe?

285 posted on 07/06/2002 11:35:23 AM PDT by balrog666
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To: Dark Mirage
Why don't you just go forth and kill all the women and make the world perfect?

This isn't about you. Not everything is about you. This is about government.

286 posted on 07/06/2002 11:39:33 AM PDT by Nick Danger
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To: Nick Danger
As for the reaction of the men in this article, simple algebra tells us that as 'repent' increases, the amount of time which constitutes 'haste' must also increase. For sufficiently high values of repent, haste becomes longer than the typical human lifespan.

Is that algebra, or economics?

When the risk of divorce unreasonably raises the potential cost of marriage for men, there will be fewer buyers.




287 posted on 07/06/2002 11:40:07 AM PDT by Sabertooth
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To: Tennessee_Bob
What I always found laughable was the young women at school that were dating some absolute a##holes - guys that were verbally and physically abusive, guys that were dating more than one woman - and making a point of letting everyone know - and the women complaining about it.

Women think these a##holes are "exciting." They do not see the correllation between the "exciting guy" and their "miserable marraige." Meanwhile, many perfectly fine men acquire the "boring" label. The women also do not see the correllation between "boring" and a "peaceful" stable marraige.

It appears that women want to find a guy - any guy - then marry, and change him into someone she wants. Why do you suppose she doesn't look for someone she wants in the first place?

288 posted on 07/06/2002 11:40:13 AM PDT by bimbo
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To: wardaddy
the modern man has sold his principals for the allure of sex and a good time...anytime in my life I have ever put my passions above my principal I have ended up with unfulfilled passion and paid the price of compromised principal. As Far as young women go these days the word SLUT has become a badge of honnor.
289 posted on 07/06/2002 11:47:28 AM PDT by rkrtgw
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To: buccaneer81
This isn't THE HALF of it. Even IF married couples stay together the other no win situation is your kids. They are being raised by their peer group you know. Oh, I know, you think you are GOOD parents. Your family is going to be different. Right. MTV has more influence over your kids than you do. Even if you don't let them watch it ... all their friends DO.
290 posted on 07/06/2002 11:49:02 AM PDT by mercy
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To: Nick Danger
We are probably going to find out in not too many years whether you are right, and I suspect that we are going to find out that men's pre-marital sexual behavior has zero to do with whether government seeks to remove adult males from those human families they do manage to form.

We don't need to wait a few years. Most children in single family homes were born out of wedlock. None of them would have been born without pre-marital sex.

You are suggesting that men take this a step further and go on a "conception strike," thus placing the continuation of the society itself in peril.

I'm only calling on men to face the reality that their concept of proving their manhood by nailing any willing woman is being used against them, but men are too obsessed with getting some to see it.

I believe government's response would be to begin supporting the children of single mothers via the tax system. There would always be loser men out there who had nothing to extract in terms of child support who would be willing to serve as society's studs. All you'd have is bunch of frustrated, celibate males who got dinged anyway in the form of higher taxation.

So men would provide the stud service, and then men in government would provide the support via tax dollars. Are men really that pathetic?

291 posted on 07/06/2002 11:49:04 AM PDT by Balto_Boy
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To: buccaneer81

You know, he's got a good point.

Just like people used to re-arange their entire lives around the tax code and the (moment of silence in respect) "Credit card interest deduction" now people are arranging their lives around the laws governing the marriage contract.

Whoever said "Life immitates art" was an idiot.

Because in reality, life immitates law.

(that's what they have done, legislated marriage right out the door. The kept weighting it and beating on it till they killed it. And now they blame the victim, so typical..)

292 posted on 07/06/2002 11:54:57 AM PDT by Jhoffa_
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To: buccaneer81
This post is worth a second bump..

I am glad you put this up.

293 posted on 07/06/2002 11:55:36 AM PDT by Jhoffa_
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To: Balto_Boy
Don't marry! Just practice cohabitation!
294 posted on 07/06/2002 11:58:35 AM PDT by Adevarul
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To: narses
Wow! Are you living in a dream world! Women have absolutely no sense of fairness when it comes to these matters.

"Hell hath no fury..."

295 posted on 07/06/2002 11:58:45 AM PDT by matrix
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To: Sabertooth
When the risk of divorce unreasonably raises the potential cost of marriage for men, there will be fewer buyers.

Well said. Caveat Emptor, let the man beware...

296 posted on 07/06/2002 12:00:14 PM PDT by meyer
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To: Nick Danger
You forgot a big one: what is her relationship with her father? If she doesn't think her father walks on water, beware. If she says her father was a jerk, or a drunkard, or any other sort of miscreant, head for the hills immediately and do not look back. You will never do better than her father.

My dad is somewhat of a jerk. He has a drinking problem and anger issues. I love him to death, but I am not going to say he is a saint when he surely is not.

297 posted on 07/06/2002 12:00:25 PM PDT by Bella_Bru
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To: Jhoffa_
We can talk all we want about the sorry state of many women and our courts, but most men have to get married if there going they are going to grow to full human maturity - to love heartily. To gain eternal life.
298 posted on 07/06/2002 12:01:50 PM PDT by happytobealive
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To: buccaneer81
I certainly do not have any ill feelings towards my boyfriend, or any past boyfriends. I must worship and idolize my ever angry father or else I'm not a "good" woman? LOL
299 posted on 07/06/2002 12:02:13 PM PDT by Bella_Bru
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To: happytobealive
Well then one might think we would be encouraging this.

We're not.

300 posted on 07/06/2002 12:03:30 PM PDT by Jhoffa_
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