VANITY question: pump action vs. semi-auto

none | November 4, 2002 | mondonico

[mondonico]

I'm considering purchasing a shotgun for both clay target sports and home defense. I already have a 12 ga. O/U, but with a 30" barrel, 2-shot capacity, and weighing in at nearly 9 lbs., it does not seem to be the ideal weapon to have when al qaeda sets off a dirty bomb and civil order breaks down. I'd like to get something my wife can shoot. She's petite--about 105 lbs. and 5'0" tall. So I'm thinking a Mossberg Bantam 20ga. pump, which has the benefit of less recoil than a 12ga., shortened (13") LOP, and shortened reach to the slide. Still, a similarly-configured 20ga. semi-auto would have even less recoil, and thus be even easier for my wife to handle.

My question is this: are semi-auto's reliable enough for home defense applications, as compated with pumps?

[mondonico]

Administrator--if this type of post isn't OK, please let me know.

[mondonico]

compated = compared

[Blood of Tyrants]

Something your wife can shoot...

How about a surplus SKS rifle from Yugoslavia? They are currently about $150 for one in nearly new condition. Mags are cheap at about $15 each and ammo is less than $80 for 1000 rounds.

[txjeep]

Mosberg has a "special use" shotgun that holds 8 or 9 shells. I saw one at Academy for about $280 or so recently. Something like that would be my top pick for personal protection. Don't take it hunting though!

[ABG(anybody but Gore)]

A hidden advantage of a pump is that the sound of a shell being chambered is unmistakeable to anybody who might be violating the sanctity of your domicile. The Remington 870 is especially good for this reason. Another advantage for the pump is that you never have to worry about jamming.

[BlueLancer]

A hidden advantage of a pump is that the sound of a shell being chambered is unmistakeable to anybody who might be violating the sanctity of your domicile.

I second that reason. The sound of that action in the dark must sound like the trumps of doom if you're not expecting it.

[gridlock]

If this type of post wasn't OK, FreeRepublic bandwith utilization would drop by about 20%!

[mbynack]

I've got one. It comes with a wooden dowel in the Mag tube that only lets you load 3 if you're hunting. It's easy to remove. I've owned my Mossberg 500 for four years and I'm happy with it. The 12 guage has more recoil than my wife can stand, so the 20 guage might be a better choice. Both are pretty effective at close range.

[HiJinx]

Okay, friend-of-a-friend story time...

My Brother-in-law's friend is a detective in a town south of Phoenix, AZ. They had a shoot-out down there several years ago. One deputy lost his life because he couldn't return fire...he was using a pump shotgun (Mossberg 500 LE model)...he had been shot in the upper arm and couldn't work the pump. An auto would have made the difference.

FWIW!

HJ

[Redleg Duke]

I recommend a pump action. It gives your left hand something to do (assuming you ar righthanded) and there is nothing to get the attention of someone, in someone else's home, uninvited, in the dark, than the sound of a pump shotgun feeding in the first round.

Use the money you save to buy a good rug cleaner...as you will have a brown streak on the floor to where he came in!

[ericthecurdog]

Remington 870 in 12 ga.... accept no substitutes.

If you have to own a semi, look at the Beretta 390.

[MassExodus]

There isn't much that is more exciting to me than my Remington 1100 auto 12 gauge barking out in fast succession.

Conversely, NOTHING is more depressing than drawing a follow up bead on a 12 point buck only to squeeze the trigger and have nothing happen because a shell is half ejected from the receiver.

Get the Pump.

[Billthedrill]

There are several factors - a pump has a warning sound, which may or may not fit the tactical situation; in addition, if you are contemplating using it in an outdoor confrontation, it is difficult to cycle a pump from a prone firing position. OTOH, a semi takes a bit more maintenance - most of these are gas-operated, which requires an extra cleaning step (Bennelli's are an exception, having a unique recoil-operated action). Follow-up shots take more training with a pump than a semi due to the cycling of the action taking you off-target. In either case training is the answer.

Personally I find the question much too difficult to mandate a choice. I'm afraid you're going to have to purchase one of each. Durn it.

[ZGuy]

I would not consider recoil in the equation because I would not teach my wife to put the gun to her shoulder and look down the barrel before firing in that situation -- she may not be able to.
Take her to a nearby field and have her hold the shotgun by her hip and have her fire at a pumpkin or something. She will learn not to be concerned about any kick. Even with a 12 ga. it's not a big deal.
However, in a panicy, tense situation such as you describe (may it never happen) she may be too flustered to use a pump if she is not used to the action she is required to make. So in short, for home safety only for a non-shooting wife, I'd go with an auto and teach her to fire it accurately from odd positions such as the hip. Just make sure she is well trained not to fire until the target is positively identified!

[spodefly]

... it does not seem to be the ideal weapon to have when al qaeda sets off a dirty bomb and civil order breaks down.

Nothing like the power of positive thinking! ;)

As to the original question (pump vs. semi-auto) go with the pump. The most likely scenario is some skagged out punk rummaging thru your house late at night, and nothing says 'Get the F out' like the sound of a pump shotgun being racked. Go with the 20 guage for the petite Mrs. mondonico ...

[Politically Correct]

A hidden advantage of a pump is that the sound of a shell being chambered is unmistakeable to anybody who might be violating the sanctity of your domicile. The Remington 870 is especially good for this reason. Another advantage for the pump is that you never have to worry about jamming.

Apparently you've never "short stroked" a pump before.

[ArrogantBustard]

Another advantage for the pump is that you never have to worry about jamming.

A pump can be short-stroked, a semiauto can suffer failure to feed. No machine is perfect. Pumps do tend to be less expensive. You correctly note that LOP is a serious issue for Mrs. Mondico. You (and she) might want to look into the semiauto Benelli M1, which I find to be extremely reliable. The black "tactical" models I've handled have a much shorter LOP than the pump guns commonly sold in USA. They can be a bit pricey, but well worth it.

[Mini-14]

I've had a Winchester 1300 repeatedly jam on Winchester slugs. I don't trust this particular shotgun.

[CholeraJoe]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The ideal home defense weapon is a 12 guage pump. 99 out of 100 times, simply cycling the pump action in a dark house will turn an intruder into pi$$-covered jello. In the 1 percent that it doesn't, just point, click and call the coroner.

[JavaTheHutt]

The SKS sounds like a good deal. I'm all for inexpensive ammo.

[Blue Screen of Death]

there is nothing to get the attention of someone, in someone else's home, uninvited, in the dark, than the sound of a pump shotgun feeding in the first round.

Or the second round.

[CholeraJoe]

Oh. You can't go wrong with a Mossberg. Inexpensive and rugged. It's the shotgun preferred by the US military and many law enforcement agencies.

[Politically Correct]

Personally I find the question much too difficult to mandate a choice. I'm afraid you're going to have to purchase one of each. Durn it.

I personally have several of each. But it can drive you nuts.
Forgetting to pump. "Dang thought I had the Auto."
Trying to pump the Auto. "Dang thing is stuck!"

Well, you get the idea. Pick one style (not necessarily one gun)and stick with it.

We actually go out and toss clays and purposely bring both kinds out and see who can make the switches between types. It's a hoot!

[ArrogantBustard]

(Bennelli's are an exception, having a unique recoil-operated action).

Benelli bump. Easy to load, easy to shoot, easy to clean. Easy as Benelli. (Just not necessarily easy to buy... :[ )

[LibWhacker]

First take your wife to a skeet and trap range and rent a 20-gauge to see if she can handle the recoil. I did that with my wife and was surprised to find out that even that was too much . . . Perhaps a 410 or a handgun?

[TC Rider]

The SKS sounds like a good deal. I'm all for inexpensive ammo.

This may sound good for home defense, but, I hope you live waaaay out in the country.

Over penetration should be a serious concern with the SKS. You don't want to take out the neighbors.

The 12ga will play hell with your sheetrock, (especially if you score a hit), but will not snuff the neighbor's cat.

[MikeJ]

In my opinion, modern semi-auto shotguns are slightly more reliable than pumps because of the risk of short-stroking. Semis can also be worked one-handed if necessary. This is a fairly minor difference, however, and my own house gun is my beloved Mossberg 590 pump. A point against semiautos is that the second shot is always ready to go... this can be bad for a scared novice, who might not have mastered trigger control under stress. And SKS is fine so long as overpenetration is not a problem. An SKS round will not even slow down when piercing typical interior walls, and might very well perforate your neighbor's house. A shotgun is much better behaved in this reguard. Another thing to consider - a .357 mag lever action rifle! Small, light, mechanically obvious, low recoil, effective against human targets, somewhat longer range than a shotgun loaded with shot. Fancy ammo can limit overpenetration, at least to the point where your neighbor is probably safe.

[Billthedrill]

Oh, yeah. I lu$t after a Benelli but for $ome rea$on I haven't purcha$ed one yet...

[tacticalogic]

I chose a good used Browning BPS over an new Mossberg for about the same price. Haven't regretted it.

[Drammach]

In addition to the pump not jamming as easily, is the fact that there is less chance of accidental discharge.
A round has to be manually inserted (pumped) into the chamber.
A semi-auto does it for You, increasing the possibility of the simple pull of a trigger resulting in an unintended firing.

[talleyman]

Oh, this is about shotguns! Whew! I'd just read a Slick Willy story, and for a moment there...

[Bosco]

The advice I have heard concerning the proper load to use in a shotgun in a home defense situation is a dove load. The shot gauge wreaks a lot less havoc in the home while still providing enough firepower to take care of a perpetrator.

[Politically Correct]

First take your wife to a skeet and trap range and rent a 20-gauge to see if she can handle the recoil. I did that with my wife and was surprised to find out that even that was too much . . . Perhaps a 410 or a handgun?

Shoot from just above the hip, gun pressed to side under the elbow, rather than the shoulder. The felt recoil is negligable.
With practice the method is effective and accurate.This is not a good shooting position for an Auto though as the movement of the gun rearward can negate the cycling of the action unless you have a really good gas operated machine. I really only recommend it for the pump guns.

[Woodman]

Yes "spread" is not much of a problem at 10 to 25 feet.

[Shooter 2.5]

If you decided to join a skeet and trap club, tour the club first and ask as many questions as you can. The members will be glad to help you decide on the type of action for the shotgun.

Forget about the SKS unless you decide to buy a large caliber plinker. It's not a good idea for defense unless you live a mile away from your neighbors.

[LibWhacker]

Heck, I'd like to try that myself, just to do something different for a change. But I haven't fired from the hip since I was a kid and lived out in the country; The PC ranges around here don't allow it . . . No shooting from the hip, no rapid firing, no shooting at human silhouettes. No buckshot or other heavy loads at some of them. :-(

[joesnuffy]

Scattergun Technologies...

[JavaTheHutt]

Well, I agree, a rifle is a pretty poor choice for your average home defense situation. I prefer my custom .45 auto.

The price on the SKS makes it a pretty good bargain though, and if the ammo is really that inexpensive, it makes it affordable to do a lot of target shooting. I didn't realize the price was so low for an SKS. I'll be checking the gun shops in my area for one. Unfortunately, I missed the gun show that was in town this past weekend.

[Res Nullius]

I would suggest you consider a pump action for the following reasons:
1. They are far less likely to jam or fail to feed than a semi-auto;
2. While all firearms should be well maintined, a pump will need less and still function;
3. You will find that you can interchange barrels on some pumps and therefore you could have a home defense gun with a 20" barrel then change it out for a 30" hunting barrel;
4. Pumps will eat [shoot] anything of the proper gauge while semi autos require specific loads. In other words, you can buy a 12 gauge pump and shoot everything from low base skeet loads -less recoil - to full house buck shot or slugs.
Consider either the Remington or Mossberg in Stainless steel.

[joesnuffy]

"http://www.wilsoncombat.com/sgt/sgtindex.htm"
12 g if you are the only one using it
20 g if both you and your wife are using it..
#4 buck, 00 nickel plated, and slugs for home defense/outside defense in appropriate area
Get a tritium front post and a the Surfire front flashlight...for quick ID not for searching..
Practice Practice Practice

[mondonico]

Thanks to all for the input!

[Politically Correct]

Heck, I'd like to try that myself, just to do something different for a change. But I haven't fired from the hip since I was a kid and lived out in the country; The PC ranges around here don't allow it . . . No shooting from the hip, no rapid firing, no shooting at human silhouettes. No buckshot or other heavy loads at some of them. :-(

Living in the country has it's advantages.
My range is out the front door. Shooting into the dam that makes the pond.
The neighbors aren't close. Although they are close enough to hear me shooting and come over and help deplete my ammo";^)

[fatboy]

I vote for the pump. In fact, I own one of the Mossburg Bantam 20 ga that is for my son to hunt and break clays. For the record, I have 4 shotguns, 4 rifles and 2 handguns.

There is no perfect home defense gun. While my 38 special revolver was picked up for just that purpose, In the event I have to protect home and hearth, the mossburg bantam will be primary. Here are my reasons:

1. The pump is very reliable compared to an auto. The sound of racking a pump is probably all you will ever need.

2. The bantam is small and and easier to use inside cramp spaces.

3. Using #3 or #4 buckshot will get the job done with minimum of damage to your house and neighborhood. Do what you want, but I would not depend on bird shot to protect me.

4. A shotgun is point and shoot, a rifle or handgun is aim and squeeze. Point and shoot is better in a high stress situation.

5. If you get some kind of special home defense shotgun and use it, believe it or not, depending on where you live, you may run into legal problems.In some areas, it could be construed as using excessive force. However, a youth shotgun, that you just happen to have laying around the house does not invite that kind of scrutiny

Just my opinion

fatboy

[TC Rider]

Unfortunately, I missed the gun show that was in town this past weekend.

Talk about poor planning on my part..

We're going on vacation the last two weeks of November, so I'll miss the Dixie Gun and Knife Classic Gun Show in Raleigh, the BUYcott and to add insult to injury, we'll be in the UK. Where I'm not supposed to even be carrying my tactical folding knife.

(I'm gonna feel naked without my Glock)

[TC Rider]

Well, I agree, a rifle is a pretty poor choice for your average home defense situation. I prefer my custom .45 auto.

Actually, I'm with you. A stout handgun is a much better choice in the home, than any long gun, shotgun or rifle.

It's too easy for a bad guy to grab a barrel as he sees it preceed you around a corner.

The pluses for shotguns are:

Low initial cost
Aiming is an option
Pyschological effect of pump (I realize a 1911 being racked is a plus also)

In my house, the bad guy will never hear the Glock being racked, it's good to go, 24/7. (I doubt he'd hear it over the Attack Schnauzers anyway)

[Shooter 2.5]

I use a Mossberg 500 over the bed with a round in the chamber with the action partially open showing the head of the shell. I'm using #6 in the magazine with buck in the sidesaddle shell holder. I have a .45 1911 hidden near the bed with another sitting next to me on my desk for a carry pistol.

I try not to tell people what to buy since it's such a personal choice. I can tell people what I do but I don't know their circumstances. I do think the SKS is a poor choice except for a farmhouse.

[fatboy]

Shooter 2.5

I agree with you. After I hit the post button, I thought that an suggestion is to put a fine shot game shell or two in first, followed by buck shot in the event the game load doesn't have the desired effect. I agree fully with you a rifle is a poor choice, unless thats all you have.

You are 100% right, no one can tell someone else what to do or own for homeland security unless they know their circumstances. I only offered my opinion.

I have a friend that had an intruder in his house. The guy was on drugs. My friend fired (2) 40 cal jacketed rounds from a Glock and this guy still kept comimg. My friend is also a Black Belt in Taekwondo. When the police arrived they had to use mace on him.

No question about it, a 1911 should cover your home defense needs well. In fact, a 1911 is on my wish list (I want an accurized Rock River or Les Bauer)for bullseye comp. I personally want to keep my home defense tools as simple and reliable as possible, thats why I choose to use a revolver and not a semi. Another issue for me, a 38 SPL is not going to have the muzzle flash and noise of the 45 cal., while it wouldn't be a problem for me, it might be an issue for my wife.

fatboy

[Shooter 2.5]

You made a good choice with the .38. When you have your wife to consider, you have to compromise.

It's much better to have a gun your wife can handle than worry about a few One Shot percentage points. We have a few women who compete at IDPA but if anything happens to their semi .45's they don't have the muscle to the slide back.

[Mulder]

bang

[rmvh]

I had same need...

I bought a Mossberg 410....Higher mussle velocity than any 12 gauge!....great for short range personal defense (women particualrly) since its light.

Gun is a pump and solid a rock.....light

Terrible bird gun....to much velocity and the spread is wild.