Barry Bonds: "I Wiped out Babe Ruth. Don't Talk About Him No More"

ESPN.com ^

[UCANSEE2]

You both have nailed extremely important points.

Beating someone's record is not all there is about baseball. To me, it is the least important thing about the sport.

Bonds has bragging rights, for sure. He is an accomplished athlete.

Nothing stays in the heart and mind more than simple humility, and giving. To see the light in a child's eyes when their favorite baseball player takes the time to pat them on the head and sign a baseball is worth more than all the money in the world.

To see the sadness of a child when getting ignored by some of today's BIG DEAL players, can break the heart of the biggest man.

[Charles Henrickson]

Interestingly, both players "metamorphosized" in their mid-30s: Ruth got fat, and Bonds got bulked up and chiseled ("weight-training"?). In his 20s Ruth was a tall, muscular athletic specimen--much bigger and stronger and more powerful than the players of his day. In his 20s Bonds was a thin, wiry, fast, line-drive hitter. Both players got slower as they put on weight. Bonds no longer is the excellent outfielder or base-stealer that he once was.

It is only since age 35--from the 2000 season on--that Bonds has put up the staggering, eye-popping numbers. Before that, he had excellent, even Hall-of-Fame numbers, but nowhere near those of the last three-and-a-half seasons. Curiously, that coincides with his dramatically different, bulked-up appearance. Hmmmm. . . .

Ruth put up staggering, eye-popping numbers throughout his career. He was so far ahead of the rest of the other players of his era, for so many years, it's amazing.

From ages 35-38 (Bonds is not yet 39), I give the edge to the newly-bulked-up Bonds over the out-of-shape Ruth. But for the whole career, there is no question:

Babe Ruth is the greatest player who ever lived.

[Charles Henrickson]

Oh, one other thing: That body armor Bonds gets to wear! Come on! No wonder he can hang over the plate! Take that armor off him and let some of these wussy pitchers rediscover the brushback, and then let's see how Bonds does!

[HamiltonJay]

You forget reality, sure you can look at numbers and say Bonds did better, but you know what, that won't matter.. The Babe will still be the person people talk about.

Bonds has undercut his ability to have a great place in baseball history. His numbers speak for himselves, but its the fans that dictate the great ones, not merely the numbers.

Bonds no matter how good he ever plays can never hope to become an Icon.... People will be talking about the Babe long after someone hits 200 homers in a season... only a few stat geeks will even remember Bond's name.

Just face facts, this is a guy who set a new home run record for a single season, and in this age of marketing could not even get any significant marketing deals from that feat, because frankly every advertiser in the world knows that people generally think he's a jerk. Bonds place in baseball history will be simply his numbers, he will not leave behind a legacy. Aaron, Babe, Gehrig, Dimaggio, Mays, Mantle, Ripken et al they left behind legacies... Bond's because of the fact he just can't help but be a jackass, will leave behind no legacy, just stats.

[Charles Henrickson]

For the best combination--being one of the all-time greatest players, as well as a good guy, fan-friendly, a class act, a team player--no one can top Stan "The Man" Musial.

[annyokie]

I disagree. Ty Cobb, though a real SOB, was the greatest baseball player of all time. Talk about your amazing stats! And he spent his career with the Tigers, for pete's sake!

[pupdog]

There is a statistic that Bill James invented (or popularized?) called linear weights. The idea behind it is to come up with a single statistic to judge a player's overall worth.

The way it works: it first gives each statistical measurement a weight in terms of how many runs it produces on average (example: a triple was about 1.1, a stolen base .34, caught stealing -.65, etc., with related measures for pitchers). Then, the player's runs from that year are compared against an average player, or "replacement level" player of that same year, to determine how many more runs this player produced. "Runs" is then tranlsated to "wins", so that by the time you consider the entire player's career, you have a measurment of how many more "wins" they brought to the teams they played for.

I can't find the chart right now, but comparing careers, Ruth crushes everyone. IIRC, he was the only person to break 100 "wins" in this measure. He also had the best single season every, but I don't remember that as well.

To be sure, Bonds will rightly go down as one of the all-time greats. I think that putting him in the top 10 ever is not unreasonable. But it's only in his dreams that he'll take down the Bambino.

As a friend of mine said, "Put me in something the size of a badminton court, and I'll break the home run record too."

[foreverfree]

I'm somewhat reluctant to go down this path, but I can't help imagining there's a racial element to Bonds' statement. Note that he says that he isn't focused on going after Henry Aaron's record, and that Ruth is his real target. Why?

I don't know, but in Bob Creamer's book Babe, it says that the Bambino had a swarthy completion. That, and his thick lips, caused him to be called the n-word at St. Marys Industrial School, and even in his early career as a Bosox phenom. Some believed that he was indeed part black.

foreverfree

[HamiltonJay]

As a friend of mine said, "Put me in something the size of a badminton court, and I'll break the home run record too.

That is so true, we have a frontier league pro club that plays in a field that is 405 or 410 straight away, newly built PNC Park is under 400 straight away.

[bootless]

hi pupdog (love the name!),

PacBell Park is not the size of a badminton court ... it really is a pitcher's park, and Death Valley (aka Triples Alley) in right center field takes what would be home runs in other parks, and turns them into outs or extra base hits if the fielder misjudges it. Happens a lot. :-)

[speedy]

One of the most illustrative stats of what Babe Ruth accomplished is that in 1927, the year he hit 60 home runs, no other TEAM in the majors hit that many. So for Bonds -- or McGwire or Sosa for that matter -- to have a commensurate impact, they would have had to hit about 250 in a season. That is a better measuring stick of their relative impact on the game.

On some of the other issues -- Ruth was very popular with the vast majority of his teammates, even the more educated and refined ones like Herb Pennock and Waite Hoyt who might have been expected to be put off by his occasionally loutish behavior. He was clearly a loveable human being whose enormous faults were totally overtaken by the sheer enormity of his personality. Most of Bonds's teammates do not like him at all. We are comparing one very talented and outstanding athlete in Bonds to an American legend.

[bootless]

Oops - hit "Post" too soon. Although the right field line is 309 ft., the RF wall is 25 feet high. In looking up the park dimensions, I found an interesting article on mlb.com:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20021011&content_id=155530&vkey=cs2002news&fext=.jsp

10/11/2002 8:28 pm ET
Pacific Bell Park not a Homer Haven
By Chris Shuttlesworth / MLB.com


Pac Bell Park is the toughest park in the NL to hit a home run.

SAN FRANCISCO -- When planners nestled Pacific Bell Park into a tiny patch of land on the shores of San Francisco Bay, conventional wisdom said balls would be flying out over the right-field wall, a mere 309 feet away down the line.

The Giants got a major sponsor for the seating area and walkway atop the right-field wall, dubbing it "Splash Landing" and installing a large counter with three digits to record the number of "Splash Hits" clubbed by the Giants.

A home run paradise, right?

Wrong. Very wrong. The counter sits at "022," with Barry Bonds accounting for 20 of those. Four opposition homers have also cleared the wall entirely and splashed into McCovey Cove.

Combine the height of the wall (25 feet) with the rate at which the wall angles out (from 309 to 365 in straightaway right to 421 in right-center) and throw in the wind blowing in from the Bay, and you have a daunting task for all but the strongest of left-handed hitters.

That's not the only place where Pacific Bell Park keeps balls in the park. That 421-foot Death Valley in right-center encourages triples, not long balls, and the cool climate tends to push balls down as well.

In 2002, the Giants hit 72 homers at their home park, 126 on the road, and Pacific Bell Park ranked last in the National League with 114 homers allowed. Contrast that with Busch Stadium, the last of the cookie-cutter stadiums built in the late '60s. That park plays fairly neutral; 154 homers were hit there this season.

While Saturday's 1:17 p.m. PT first pitch is consistent with weekend start times throughout the regular season, this game, likely to be longer than a regular game, is in mid-October, so shadows will begin creeping over the batter's boxes late in the game.

On Sunday and Monday, the late-afternoon games will start already in shadow, probably putting the entire infield and right field in darkness with left and center still in sunlight. The setting sun has been casting a blinding glare off the center-field scoreboard, and fielders catching fly balls in left or center will be staring directly into the sun, which wasn't a factor in the two night games in St. Louis.

Late in Games 4 and 5, the notorious San Francisco chill and wind could prove to be a factor, as temperatures are likely to be around 60 degrees by first pitch with the potential for heavy wet air. Although rain is nowhere in the forecast, misty fog is certainly possible, signicantly affecting the flight of the ball.

Pacific Bell Park boasts one of the smallest foul territories in the Majors, giving hitters new life when in other parks they might record outs.

Speaking of foul balls, the intimate design of the park introduced a problem rarely seen at parks like Busch Stadium: fan interference. The Giants have been struggling with the problem of fans touching fair balls hit down the lines and also with spectators reaching over the outfield fences to catch balls that could be homers or outs, depending on the distance and the fielder's prowess.

[pupdog]

OK then, I definitely stand corrected there. I would like to see a comprehensive study comparing the two hitters once Bonds's career is done, with as many factors considered as possible. I do think that Bonds would hold his own respectably. But I still think the Sultan of Swat would show the better results overall.

[bootless]

:-) Actually, I learned a lot from that column, too - I don't make a study of ballpark dimensions ... I just see a lot of balls die on the warning track out in RC. (I do like the "warning moat" idea, though...)

I would like to see that comparison, too. So many factors: dead ball vs live ball, pitching velocity and every other pitching factor, etc etc. That's a job for BluesDuke, not me.

I don't know about lifetime slugging percentage, but I do believe that Bonds shattered the Babe's single season slugging percentage mark last year. That said, those remarks surprised me, but I would like to see the entirety of the interview. It's a well-known local fact that a lot of the reporters (esp. the national ones, like Rick Reynolds of SI) are not well-liked by Bonds. There are a few local guys that he has a good rapport with, but from what I see of the media in general, it doesn't surprise me that some of them are somewhat, uh, obnoxious and way too taken with themselves.

He's been very appreciative of the local fans.

[Vigilanteman]

Bonds spends his spare time whining. In between womanizing, eating and drinking binges, the Babe managed to visit more than a few kids in the hospital . . . which is why the Babe will always endure, while Bonds is simply to be endured.

The Babe also spent the first quarter of his career as a damn fine pitcher. Take his 714 career dingers and divide by .75 to get the 952 homers Bonds would have to collect to meet equal the Babe in one statistic alone. Bonds isn't worthy to shine his shoes.

[Vigilanteman]

Barry Bonds this year finally surpassed Babe Ruth in one career statistic: lifetime strikeouts. The Babe finished at 1330, Bonds currently has 1368. And that's just on the field.

[jagrmeister]

I like Bonds' in-your-face-attitude. He's got the talent to back it up.

[subterfuge]

"Bonds no longer is the excellent outfielder "

Sorry, Bonds was never a good outfielder. I'll never forget him not being able to throw out the slow-footed Sid Bream on the final play of the National League Championship series from extremely shallow left field. That was when Bonds was with the Pirates.

[Beowulf]

Is it time to bring back the astericks in major league baseball recordbooks?

Home runs without steroids.

* Home runs with steroids.

[steelyourfaith]

I figured some one would have beaten me to this.

My local paper says it was a cockktail of HGH & THG for Bonds.