Am I Really Alone? (VANITY)

papasmurf | 11/13/2004 | papasmurf

[papasmurf]

A large part of the greatness of this Country has always been our ability, and willingness, to "see" the other guy's point of view. To be fair and just and considerate. From our politics to education, from our finance sectors to our industries, from our Congressional districts all the way down to the placement of our bus stops in our Cities and Towns. Words like fair, equal, good of the people, needs of the Country.. have always been used to help us make our decisions, and describe us and our actions.

We have always been able to find and make "win-win" compromises. Concessions by the opposing parties involved in the process have always been an American staple, and an example to the world, since I can remember. We, as a united people, have always aimed for, if not perfection, correctness. Being correct was the "baseline" for us, being the "best" was the goal.

Being popular wasn't as important as being correct and winning wasn't as important as how you won. Call me naive, blind, or just gullible, those are the value lessons I learned from my Parents, our society, and the world.

In years past, America was known to be a "progressive" nation, that is, before the word progressive was assigned a new definition and indelibly linked with the word "liberal". I just knew, at the end of the "cultural revolution" (approx. 1965-1971), that we would go beyond all that was bad. That we would progress. That we would have clean air, equality and prosperity for all Americans, that we would find a way to make war nearly obsolete, that my children would not grow up fearing the police, would not know the hatred of others because of their color, economic status, political preference, their geography. We would have endless opportunities at our disposal, that our rights would be protected, that America would always find ways to get past our differences and forge a better Nation for all, that we could and would find ways of reducing taxes, limiting government, empowering the individual, that our Constitution would be honored, defended and, upheld.

What a shame that instead of teaching our children how and on what basis to accept, we legally mandate tolerance. What a shame that the old adage "a good lie is easier to believe than a bad truth" has become a National reality. What a shame that our politicians will fight for "party unity", rather than fight for "American Unity". And what an absolute shame that we seek to outlaw, outright ban, the Name of Our Lord in public places. Instead of being America the Proud, America the Home of the Brave, we have become America the Guilty, America the Timid, America the Home of the Shamed.

Shame, shame, shame on us for allowing ourselves to become so divided, so utterly and completely brainwashed into believing that which we know not to be true. Shame on us for placing our loyalties to our party, instead of our Country. To think of "me", rather than "us". If anything, above all else, has been the single largest factor contributing to our division, this "mindset" has been it. If I am wrong about everything else in my life, that's ok, for I am sure I am right about this.

As a politically radical teenager, these are the thoughts that caused me to make the decision to become and support the Republicans. You see, I saw the future, if you will, and I knew then, almost 40 years ago, that the Republicans offered the best hope for it. For advancement of our Country in a world setting, for equality, for economic growth, for justice, for achievement of the individual, for helping other countries and peoples.

I could write a book on who did what to who and the negative results that ensued for us and our Country. But that is not what this article is about. It's not about me or them. It's about being American, in all that-that means. But mostly...being correct. I have always embraced the belief that extremism, from the left or right, from the believers or non-believers, from the rich or the poor, was unhealthy. That a balance is needed and is healthy. Therefore, you can easily see why, I believe that Democrats and Republicans serve a very useful, and needed, purpose. Simply put, the Dem's pull us to the left while, at the same time, the Pubby's pull us to the right, keeping us "centered". Center is good, it's healthy, it's productive. It’s equal. Center represents something for all Americans and all of America's best interests. Some give and some take. And the best thing about it all is this…when we are too far to the right, the left can pull harder, forcing us back into the middle. When we have gone too far to the left, the right does likewise. What a great Country! Or not?

Sometimes one side pulls too much or for too long. Tilt! That is where we are now, and have been for sometime. Like about 10 years, or more. Political power-mongering, interference from outsiders and a strong and sustained push from the left, caused us to plummet downwards in a spiral towards a place called socialism.

And yet here we are, at the very cusp of reclaiming our "center", our balance, our sanity. How will these current events play out? Will half of us ignore them, pretending true opportunity for real progress doesn't exist? Will we allow ourselves to be further divided, or will we circle the wagons and continue to sling arrows and build further dividing walls?

I'm hopeful, and I Pray, that we, all Americans, can recognize the opportunity, and responsibility, we have in front of us...right now.

So I ask you, does anyone else feel this way or, am I really alone?

:O)

P

[papasmurf]

I wasn't sure if this was the correct forum to post this on. Apologies if I made a mistake.

[BenLurkin]

In all my adult life, some 30 years, the Republicans have NEVER pulled "too much or for too long".

NEVER. And it it is about time they did.

[polygirl]

I'd have to disagree. I'm a moderate, and I'll have to say that never in my 51 years of living can I recall a more contentious, hateful election as the one just passed. The whole process felt torturous to me, and I am profoundly relieved that it is finally over.

From my point of view, both parties are guilty of shameful acts of divisiveness. With every politically motivated shot fired, no matter which party fired it, the pull was extreme, or at least that's how I experienced it. It's all spin spin spin - being disingenuous is the status quo of politics today - keep 'em in the dark and feed 'em BS until they don't know what to believe.

My only comfort is that saying that goes, "Democracy is the worst system of government in the world - except for all those other systems."

Polygirl

[BenLurkin]

We are at a point in our nation's political life when there is no point of 'moderation' as between two widely divergent political world views. The remaining Conservatives understand and cherish the Constitution, free enterprise and the joy of liberty. Those on the left view politics, history and the future though the eyes of Karl Marx and other like minded follow-on "philosophers". There is simply no middle ground between these forces and the Republicans have for too long allowed the democrats to drag this nation inch by inch into a Marxist nightmare. It is Fabian socialism practiced by patient enemies of America. The Republicans need to come back strong and start dismantling the bureaucracy's at every level of government.

I was referring to the practice of governance where to the democrat party "bipartisan" has always meant giving them something for everything the Republicans attempt. A practice that is rarely if ever reciprocated in return.

You see, I wasn't referring to the election, but you no doubt observed that the democrat campaign was vicious and deceptive. Republican's tires slashed in Wisconsin, Republican offices invaded and vandalized in various other places, Moore's phony 'documentary' and the CBS forged memos were but the tip of the iceberg.

The Republicans campaigned hard but their's was a campaign of substance and fact. Let's face it: that Kerry was a stooge for the Viet Cong is an ugly thing, but it was HIS doing. The pro-American side would have been remiss not to point out his record of collaboration and appeasement to our enemies. It was just that -- a matter of factual record.

[StoneFury]

[polygirl]

Though as you can tell from my response to BenLurkin, I don't agree with everything you said, I agree with and thank you for making the main point, i.e. that the divisiveness needs to come to an end and we need to find a way once again be "one nation, indivisible." I am very troubled by the clear escalation of hostilities here at home that we've witnessed this year.

Quite honestly, though I respect him in many ways, I'm disappointed in President Bush for exacerbating the problem by pandering to religious extremists (and I mean extremists, as opposed to moderate Christians like myself, many of whom are turned off by the likes of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson). President Bush has given good lip service to being a uniter instead of a divider, but his actions in many instances have said otherwise. On this point history will be the judge as to how he conducts himself in his second term, not having to worry about being re-elected. I dearly hope he does the right thing not just according to his own conscience, but also according to the will of *all* of the people, not just those who voted for him.

I realize that it may be politically incorrect to say this here, but that never stopped me from calling it like I see it, and in my book, the president gets several points off so far for failing to be a president most people can manage to respect, at least moderately. The fact that he is so clearly disliked by so many democrats, not just the extremely liberal ones but the moderate ones as well, makes it hard for me to dismiss the feeling that he really doesn't care all that much what Americans who don't share his views want, and that makes him president of only some of the people instead of all of the people.

Loyalty to the president is important, but I can't in good conscience be blindly loyal. Neither am I disingenuous enough to blast liberals for the slightest perceived slight, as so many in this forum do, while President Bush fails to walk his talk and take clear steps to bring us all together. I hold all presidents accountable on this point, no more, and no less.

Of course, YMMV (Your mileage may vary.)

Polygirl

[papasmurf]

Can it be? Are you the Mom of a married female officer to an enlisted man?...Also.

:O)

P

[ladyinred]

Would you mind telling me what the President said or did that was so ugly? The swiftvets told the truth if that is what you mean, and it needed to be told. I am curious what you feel our side did wrong. Thanks.

[polygirl]

Ben, I'm afraid you and I may have to agree to disagree on this one. I know many very fine moderate democrats with whom I have spoken at length, some of whom I consider friends, and none resemble in attitude the extreme liberal you describe. Guess what - they don't like Michael Moore either!

The blue state/red state thing, though useful in practical terms, has taken on a life of its own in ways that just makes the division worse than it already is. Yes, myopic passifist liberals who think we can just engage terrorists in dialogue and get them to see the light are thick upon the ground. And yes, extremist Marxian liberals exist who are too naive to recognize how consistent capitalism is with human nature. And yes, there are plenty of schmucks like Michael Moore around to give moderate democrats a bad name. And I agree that slashing tires and so forth is despicable. But these are not the democrats I know, though they *are* the ones the media loves to showcase, just like it likes to sensationalize negative images of the war in Iraq. The media doesn't give a fig as long as it it gets our attention, and extremists do get our attention, don't they? But just like religious extremists make many moderate republicans uncomfortable, so do the extremist liberals make the moderate democrats uncomfortable from what I've seen.

One of the great challenges in uniting our country again is persuading people to stop painting huge groups of people who have some things - but not all things - in common with the same brush. I invite you to join me in setting a good example by resisting that urge. What I see from right to left and left to right is a bell curve, with lots of moderate, moral, good, patriotic Americans making up most of it. Many of the democratic ones are feeling disenfranchised - they held their noses and voted for Kerry because they are still more philosophically, moderately liberal than conservative, but they were less than enthusiastic about the guy and have understandable concerns about the ability to the Democratic party to see that their interests are adequately represented. Lord knows it abandoned them this time.

YMMV

Respectfully,
Polygirl

[polygirl]

I doubt I'm the only one, but for sake of discussion, I do qualify. Do we know each other? Don't tell me you're a southern boy living way up north where it gets really cold!

Polygirl

[papasmurf]

I'm a Cali transplant. Been in Ga. since late 98. My eldest Daughter, was a 1LT married to a SSG.

:O)

P

[capebuffalo]

Here's the problem we're all guilty of.
We've allowed the media and the sudo-intellectuals to label each other as African Americans, Latinos, Native Americans(That one floors me since if we were born here we're native Americans) White, Asiatics, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Neocons, right wing, left wing, gays(another one that floors me; definition of gay is happy, last time I looked) Christian Right(not all rights are Christian) rich,poor, last but not least,"politically correct". You could go on and on. The Media,Academic Community,Hollywood,the entertainment community, the ACLU, lawyers,politicans are perpetuating a division. They love it! You hear every day that we're a nation divided. They salivate. Until we recognize that we are all Americans,we'll have a serious problem. If we don't stand together,we'll fall together for a nation divided cannot stand. Incidentally, Since there are those among us who want to see that happen, It's important that we have a dialog with those between the extremes or we're doomed to be a third world country. A talk host by the name of Bob Grant may have it right, when he says the country is sick and getting sicker.(sad,true observation.) The cure rest with all of us . We're all Americans and should be proud of it. Stop the label crap! That's where we should begin! I'm tired of this politically correct stuff!What say you?

[polygirl]

Nope, not referring to swiftvets, though I dislike their tactics as I dislike it no matter which side takes the character assasination route. Kerry is clearly too much the intellectual for many people's tastes, but as the mom and mom-in-law of two soldiers, I didn't appreciate the swiftvets' disparaging his service any more than I appreciate the dems going on a witchhunt to try to disparage President Bush's service.

Military service is a keenly emotional topic guaranteed to be divisive, and in this respect one was just as guilty as the other in my own view. In both cases their stridency and the fact that they each had a dog in the fight (so to speak) made it very difficult to tell what the truth really was, especially for people without the patience, desire, time, skills and resources to dig very deeply for something objective, if such even existed. What is more outrageous to me is this is precisely the goal, not to be truthful, but to cast reasonable doubt in hopes of swaying voters to their side. The spin docs count on people soon tiring of trying to figure out what is what and deciding to believe what they want to believe. But is it the truth? Maybe so, and maybe no.

No, as far as President Bush is concerned, I think he made a grave error in deciding to support a constitutional amendment on the marriage issue. As he has been quoted recently, he was earning political capital, but at the expense of alienating moderate liberals who see such a stance as lacking in compassion, even hostile toward people who are Americans like anyone else. If that's where it ended, knowing such an amendment has little chance of success would perhaps let him off the hook, but it set off a chain of events where the states hastened to amend their own constitutions, and that's a much bigger issue to those who care about such things. In their view it unjustly denies people who aren't hurting anyone equal rights on, once again, a very personal, highly divisive issue, the right to be a family, if a different sort of family, with the same rights and obligations married people are afforded.

Likewise, announcing an intention to place as many strongly conservative supreme court justices like Justice Reinquist on the bench knowing this will fan the flames of that most emotional of issues, the abortion debate, was also divisive. The president may have good intentions and be following his own conscience, but to many people, his conscience is not all that counts.

It is that kind of step taken while remaining silent about and appearing to be unsympathetic toward what many Americans do want that signals to those who care about such issues that President Bush doesn't truly serve them.

By the way, these are not your ultra liberal progressive fans of Michael Moore. They, too, are middle class people of faith, law abiding citizens who work as hard as any blue collar conservative and love America just as much, who want to give their kids a good upbringing and a good education, who pay their taxes just like the president's more conservative supporters and who help their kids say their prayers at night. They also resent that conservatives have co-opted the concept of morality, as if only republicans have good morals. It's terribly unjust and bound to make enemies of people who might otherwise have been much more receptive.

Many of these same folks believe that freedom of religion is protected by the concept of separation of church and state, and that though abortion is a very serious step they might not choose for themselves, it should ultimately be the woman's right to choose. On these issues I understand their concerns and, frankly, agree with them. (Yes, there is a bit of libertarian in me.) Many of my conservative friends would have me believe that these are not legitimate values, but I value freedom and empowering individuals, as Papasmurf referenced, too much to dismiss them out of hand, as President Bush gives the impression that he does, lacking information and actions to the contrary.

This is not to say that these folks don't respect and appreciate President Bush on other issues, but from what I can see, they are disappointed by what seems to be his tendency to act according to the will of some of the people, but not all of the people. That's surely a fine line to walk, but he is the president, and that is his lot.

YMMV,
Polygirl

[polygirl]

Ah, well, then we do have something special in common, don't we? My story, in short form, is that when my son-in-law got his deployment orders, my daughter, who has a degree in criminal science, decided with her husband's encouragement to enlist and go to OCS as a means of jump-starting her career. (This definitely isn't our father's Army, huh?) It was also intended to keep her busy and her mind off worrying about her husband while deployed, though it hasn't worked out that way. Evenso, she has done extremely well, all things considered, and bless his heart, Drew is very proud of his wife, even if she does outrank him. Besides, he's no fool. As I'm sure you know, the benes are signficantly better when one of them is a commissioned officer.

Despite the fact that it has been a tough year, Drew now has a redeployment date that will have him back in Hawaii by year's end, after which both have orders for nondeployable jobs at Ft. Benning. She spoke to him today, and he says they are busier than ever over there. No wonder considering that a lot of the snakes hiding out in Fallujah have moved to other cities. He is an infantry squad leader with the 25th Infantry Division (light) attached to the 1st ID in the Sunni triangle, SW of Kirkuk.

So are your two still in?

Polygirl.

[BenLurkin]

Perhaps your 'moderate' friends are actually conservatives and simply don't know it yet. Search their hearts to see if they believe in the Constitution, free enterprise and personal liberty. There is hope if they respond positively.

Otherwise they are in need of focused deprogramming. I'm sure you can convinnce them over time with love that government IS the problem.

[capebuffalo]

polygirl:

Kerry by definition was a traitor. It's the self-anointed pseudo intellectuals who are dividing this country. Kerry service was a sham. The real heroes of Vietnam War are lying in the fields of Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos.
Kerry gave comfort to the enemy and helped in our losing that war. Kerry would have given your security over to the spineless and American hating U.N.
Would you rather have a traitor as your leader or as you say an nonintellectual?
The Swift Vets were right. I suggest you read the book. They helped save this country from sliding into third world Socialism. Bush's presidency is also your lot.
The vast majority of Veterans voted against Kerry.
Read American Evita and you'll see what we're in for if Hillary ever became president. God Forbid!
Abortion, and particularly, late term abortion is wrong. Same sex marriage is an oxymoron . we need an amendment to protect society from liberal judges,since legislators won't take a stand. People have been cohabiting for generations. We don't object to domestic partnerships. We object to dragging the state of matrimony in the mud. I'm not sure what you mean by a moderate liberal when it comes down to killing innocent lives, and the basic structure of a strong society, namely, marriage. Johnny has two mommies or two daddies, is an indication of a sick society that's getting sicker. How can you call people of faith who are pro abortion and pro same sex marriage? That's an oxymoron. You're likely a cafeteria Christian.

[papasmurf]

Polygirl:

He is still in, and currently is in Iraq. Being the job he has, EOD, sends him TDY to all corners of the earth, he just came back from Afganistan and Africa. She left active duty in 2000 in order to give me another Grand Son ( I have 2 from my youngest Daughter )and has since been recalled twice, but thankfully, for short periods each time.
I have another Son in Law also on active duty. He's an SSG in MI also in Iraq.

Please pass my warmest appreciation to your Daughter and Son in Law.

:O)

P

[polygirl]

In general, nicely said. I agree - we're all in this together and the problem can't be solved without everyone's cooperation and participation. And above all, we simply must learn to agree to disagree and respect everyone's right to their opinion. It's the disrespectfulness of it all that is tearing us apart.

Polygirl

[polygirl]

Ben, some of the problem re the Constitution is that it is not clear on some of the issues of the day that people feel strongly about. So asking whether someone believes in the Constitution isn't very useful - everyone would say yes, but that doesn't mean they agree with conservatives on all the issues. Free enterprise and smaller government - no problem. Personal liberty - yes, but. Many moderates are uncomfortable with the tendency of some conservatives, including our president, to advocate for personal liberty but with strings attached. I will say it again, the same sex marriage issue and the president's support for a constitutional amendment leaves many of them very cold. What is more personal than not having the liberty to marry the person we love? From a rational point of view, gender is and should be irrelevant.

As to deprogramming, ewwww, that's a scary concept indeed.

Thanks for writing.

Polygirl

[BenLurkin]

Let's face it -- the liberal way of thinking is very akin to a cult. Deprogramming is a good thing.


Good luck in winning over your left leaning friends. Remember the Tenth Amendment.

[polygirl]

Oh, Capebuffalo, I had such hopes for you from what you wrote in #12. Disrespectful terms like "cafeteria Christian" are exactly the sort of thing responsible for the deep divisions we are experiencing. If that's what I am, then there are an awful lot of us out here.

We will not achieve the reconciliation we badly need in this country unless we recognize that words have tremendous power and choose them very carefully so as to avoid exacerbating the problem. In an attempt to sound witty and "right" we often write more harshly than necessary to make our point - I have been guilty of it at times, but I'm trying to refrain from it now - I invite you to do the same. If we need to vent, we should maybe do it somewhere else.

We really must learn to accept that many, many people see things differently than we do, no matter which "side" we are on, and yet we are all, every one of us, first and foremost Americans. No, we don't all hold the same values, but we don't always have to. Heck, when I was growing up in east Tennessee, even the Baptists and Presbyterians tended to look down their noses at each other in disdain out of disagreement over scriptural interpretation, so it will hardly help to engage in debate over issues like abortion and same-sex marriage. I doubt either of us would be persuaded.

One of our most precious rights is freedom of religion - you believe as you do, and I respect your right to do so. I respectfully request that you return the favor. We may not be able to understand how someone can see things so differently and consider their POV legitimate, but we simply must accept that they do, that they have a right to do so and learn to agree to disagree in ways that are respectful. If we don't, then we will continue on this very destructive path as a society.

Please remember that in my earlier post I wasn't defending either President Bush or Sen. Kerry as to their military service, I was criticizing those who sought to destroy their credibility by attacking their service record. I rarely take at face value what I read in books that are written by people with an ax to grind. The very fact that they have one discredits their words unless they are entirely documented with uncontrovertible proof.

Did Kerry make some big mistakes? Probably, but he had reasons he considered entirely loyal as an American soldier and veteran at the time. I can respect that. Did President Bush do his ivy-league white-bread best to get out of having to serve more than he did? Probably, but maybe he thought he had done his share already. I can respect that, too. Regardless, they served, and that is worth a lot to my mind. They were both much younger at the time, and neither has been in a position to speak candidly about how they really thought and felt at the time and how that might differ from their position today. I know my point of view has matured considerably since I was a young adult, and I imagine theirs have as well. I'm willing to forgive both for that reason.

Polygirl

[polygirl]

Papa - Wow, you have so much to be proud of! Hoooah to you and yours, and congrats on those grandbabies. My two soldiers say that making me a grandma is going to be their first order of business once they are reunited. (Huh? Grandma? Me? I feel like I'm just a kid myself in many ways!)

Thanks for your kind wishes to my two, I return them threefold to yours, God bless and keep them safe every one.

Polygirl

[BenLurkin]

"Did Kerry make some big mistakes? Probably, but he had reasons he considered entirely loyal as an American soldier and veteran at the time."

Oh, now I get it. You aren't serious.

I'm sorry I wasted my time on someone who registered on 11-13-04.

[bjcintennessee]

Many thought-provoking points have been made here -- some I agree with and others I don't.

I don't recall that our country was ever so divided until the democrats lost power in Congress in 1994(?). Having been the majority for 30 years, they were extremely angry and determined to regain their majority. What followed was the most vitriolic politics in recent history.

As someone already listed here, it was the democrats who pitted the poor against the rich, the old against the young, the blacks against the whites, etc. Personal attacks against republicans were constant and didn't have to be based on facts, because the main stream media would support them.

It was democrats who promoted the world view that Bush was a simpleton, a cowboy who had stolen the election in Florida. For four loooong years, the headlines in France, England, et al, repeated the democrats' talking points. So if we don't appear to be as respected around the world as we once were, is it any wonder?

As for having a gay marriage amendment, this would not have been necessary were it not for activist judges who had no legal grounds to promote their personal agendas.

For the sake of brevity, I won't elaborate unless someone wishes to debate further.

As for the admonition that President Bush is not representing all of the people, Lincoln had it right. You can please some of the people all of the time. You can please all of the people some of the time --- but you can never please all of the people all of the time.

[capebuffalo]

Polygirl:
Sorry you took exception to my suggesting that you were a cafeteria Christian. Most of us are!The problem that I find difficult to reconcile, is the hypocrisy. How Can one profess to be a Christian and be pro choice and for same sex marriage? The CHOICE was to have unprotected sex, knowing that you can abort the unwanted result.That's not only irresponsible, but flies in the face of the God we profess to believe in. Interesting, Scott Peterson was found guilty of 2nd degree murder of an unborn child(fetus?)
As for same sex marriage, its an oxymoron, marriage is the basic structure of our society. If two people of the same sex want to commit together, they can form a domestic partnership. There are legal documents that can assure hospital visitation, living wills,etc. The major problem is transfer of wealth and tax issues that can and will be addressed without having to denigrate the state of marriage. It's the ramming it down our throats that we resent, moral issues aside. As for kerry, please read Unfit For Command. He did give comfort to the enemy. The actions of Kerry, Fonda(she did apologize) helped not only extend the war(Incidentally, the only war we ever lost)But to this day he denigrated the lives of the heros who lie in the Fields of Vietnam and all the vets of Vietnam, many of whom still walk the streets of our cities, homeless, confused "baby killers" as portrayed by Mr. Kerry and his ILK.

After we left Vietnam, over 3 million Vietnamese, Laotians and Cambodians were slaughtered because they supported us.That's the legacy of the rich and powerful Senator Kerry. I would trust that you would not want to see this country become a socialist state. That's where the Leftest leaders of the Democratic Party want to take us.
The educational system in major cities is in crisis. A guy like Bill Cosby recognizes what's happening to the minority children. Since most major cities are controlled by Democrats, that's got to tell you something. Isn't there something wrong when over 50% of newborns are born out of wedlock? / Isn't there something wrong when Washington D.C. has the highest crime rate in the nation?
These are some of our issues. We're not intolerant , it's just that we see this great nation going downhill fast and we're trying to reverse the tide. It's going to take more than dialog. Where do you think the members of the Communists & Socialist Party have gone?. Read David Horowitz's book Left Illusions. David was a former Communist activist in the 60's.
David said that you can't have a dialog with those people. Think about it! would you rather have leaders who are God fearing people or godless people. What do you want for your children and grandchildren? It's really that simple!. all the rest is political smoke and mirrors. Have a good night! By the way a group of us are exploring the development of a global website for international dialog. It's in the early stages of development. I'll keep you posted.

[OPS4]

The center starts with America first, and her Allies who are not on the axis of evils side, nor willing to parley with them, in the sense of lowering the standard of our God given Liberty.

To have the freedom of choice one needs to understand the
basis of this great country, Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

In a moslem world, only Moslem men have these rights, women,
children and those who do not follow the Moslem faith, cannot be considered equals.

In a communist world, the government rules what ideology's can or cannot be talked about.

In conclusion, to be free is to be able to live the credo of the USA, LIfe Liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and negotiate with lesser dictates, is selling out on our God Given Rights, and our obligation to spread this good news for modern man.

Ops4 God Bless America

[capebuffalo]

AMEN!

[Zavien Doombringer]

I can see you are a proud mom. the service your daughter and son-in-law is to be commended.

I am a vet. In my most honest and humble opinion, Kerry slaughter the integrity of our service members. Sure he served. He laughed at GW's service in the Air national Guard, yet failed to mention he was a Reservist. GW's Unit wasn't called for service, as Kerry's was. Kerry didn't want to go or he would have joined the active forces. When overseas, Kerry used his rank and position to create a documentary to possibly promote political gain.

My father was in Viet Nam the same time, had my father been captured and tortured, or even killed due to the lies Kerry told to the congressional hearing, I would have a hard time forgiving him.

As a vet, I am appaled at Sen. Kerry's senate record for financing the military. This is the same person the Dems wanted to command the Military. Perhaps we should have let him have the presidency just to see the SNAFU he's created trying to squeeze the money out of it.

Kerry brought Viet Nam into the race because he knew he had no senate record to be pleased with, or an attendance record. Viet Nam covered all of that really well. The Swift Boat vets had to clear up the misinformation Kerry was spreading regarding his very short tour of duty there.

Kerry is smart, but he is too wishy-washy. In the words of Mark Twain, "If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything."

Truth is an absolute. It is the same for all people for all places and all time. If you do not believe in absolutes, then you do not have any morals. No morals, no leadership.

Kerry has none of those.

With a son at the age for enlisting, if he chooses to enlist, I am more comforatble he would be under our current Commander in Chief, and so should you, with your children. If it were Kerry, I would be worried.

As far as tactics go, parties need to stop attacking character and focus on issues that fall under the Federal Government. Healthcare, Affordable meds, housing, welfare are not the function of Government.

Kerry's running mate, Edwards is a trial lawyer who has sued insurances, medical practices and drug makers. Because of these lawsuits, the cost has been driven up. Pretty ironic that Kerry is talking about affordable healthcare and it's his sidekick that helped cause the price increases.

Bush hasn't done anything wrong as president. I can name tons Kerry has done wrong as Senator and as an LT in the Navy.

I do agree with you that the democrat party isn't what it used to be, nor is the republican party. There is only one thing to trust in and that is bringing the Constitution back into our government

[Zavien Doombringer]

some of the problem re the Constitution is that it is not clear on some of the issues of the day that people feel strongly about.

No, but the Constitution is very clear that what ever the Constitution doesn't cover the individual states are left to interpret.

The States still have thier local governments to handle these issues.

[telder1]

If two people have different understandings on how to genuinely benefit their children--that's one thing. If someone spews speech on how to kill children, and hook the simple into sodomy and disease, they don't merely have a 'different opinion'--they are doing treason. Part of the poison of the speech of those who are treasonous is to make it seem a kind of automatic etiquette of 'neutrality' or 'moderation' or 'centrism' to --no matter what is said --no matter how heinous or evil--merely automatically congratulate any speech spoken over any length of time through any other person whatsoever as being indicative of that person representing something legitimate as 'being a person of conviction' and 'sticking with their guns'. In doing this they attempt to give death a seat at the table of civilization on an 'equal' footing with life--just for "balance". Just because the country was deceived for a time and went to sleep and accepted death as an 'equal' with life in gov't doesn't mean death is really okay or nice or gets an 'equal' say or any say in what gov't is or does. These last few decades will be denounced as dark ages of American history (because of the mass killing of infants and the spread of sodomy among other things) by those of the future and rightfully so.

Think traitors don't know when their day is over?

2 Samuel 17:23 And when Ahithophel saw that his counsel was not followed, he saddled his ass, and arose, and gat him home to his house, to his city, and put his household in order, and hanged himself, and died, and was buried in the sepulchre of his father.

In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen

[telder1]

If two people have different understandings on how to genuinely benefit their children--that's one thing. If someone spews speech on how to kill children, and hook the simple into sodomy and disease, they don't merely have a 'different opinion'--they are doing treason. Part of the poison of the speech of those who are treasonous is to make it seem a kind of automatic etiquette of 'neutrality' or 'moderation' or 'centrism' to --no matter what is said --no matter how heinous or evil--merely automatically congratulate any speech spoken over any length of time through any other person whatsoever as being indicative of that person representing something legitimate as 'being a person of conviction' and 'sticking with their guns'. In doing this they attempt to give death a seat at the table of civilization on an 'equal' footing with life--just for "balance". Just because the country was deceived for a time and went to sleep and accepted death as an 'equal' with life in gov't doesn't mean death is really okay or nice or gets an 'equal' say or any say in what gov't is or does. These last few decades will be denounced as dark ages of American history (because of the mass killing of infants and the spread of sodomy among other things) by those of the future and rightfully so.

Think traitors don't know when their day is over?

2 Samuel 17:23 And when Ahithophel saw that his counsel was not followed, he saddled his ass, and arose, and gat him home to his house, to his city, and put his household in order, and hanged himself, and died, and was buried in the sepulchre of his father.

In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen

[u_s_army_wife]

polygirl said:"Did Kerry make some big mistakes? Probably, but he had reasons he considered entirely loyal as an American soldier and veteran at the time."

Mistakes? I'm hoping this is an effort to be fair and balanced and not truly what you would call the truth about John Kerry's so-called "service" to this country. It's about the truth, it's about decency, it's about someone running for President of the United States telling the truth and saying what they mean and meaning what they say.

While I respect your right to have your opinion, you appear to be very ill-informed regarding Kerry's military service. There have been many excellent points in this forum made regarding this issue, but there is one that hasn't been mentioned. John Kerry chose to leave said service after at most 4 months of duty. He, at the time, was in a leadership position. Due to an injury that required nothing more than a band-aid, he chose to take the option of leaving after receiving 3 purple hearts -- Purple hearts attained under questionable conditions I might add. You may question or dispute some of what I said here, however, what is not in dispute is: 1) John Kerry left his own soldiers to finish out a tour in Viet Nam he and chose not to complete his tour 2) All soldiers who served under him completed their tours. 3) He then testified against these and all the soldiers he left in Viet Nam with manufactured claims of atrocities.

So to be clear: when Kerry left Viet Nam, he left ALL of the soldiers who served with him and UNDER HIS DIRECT COMMAND behind. Every last one finished at least their 18 month duty term (or more). Not John Kerry however.

Wouldn't this then shed light on his ability to be a leader -- something key and essential I think anyone with any sense would agree, when attempting to become President of the United States? While this all happened many decades ago, Kerry has used his military service in an unabashed political way all through his political career, including his run for president. He made this his entire platform at the Democratic National Convention, using military terminology and only referring to his Senate career for a few minutes (literally). He told us (the American people) to look at him in regards to his past military service. Apparently in an attempt to "prove" what a great leader he is. Well, he failed the test miserably. He has lied about his service, and to this moment has not released all of his military records which would have put to rest -- or lend credence -- to the Swift Boat Vets claims.

Then to show an even more despicable side to Kerry, he allowed attacks about the President's service in the National Guard to go under attack when the President already released all of his records!

Added to this, Kerry lied about many things, and that includes the things he said about George Bush on the campaign trail.

How you can possibly compare the two campaigns is totally beyond my understanding. When did President Bush lie about John Kerry? When did President Bush lie about Kerry's record or lack-there-of? When did President Bush lie? Please state three lies for me because I'm unaware of them. I can tell you three lies I heard out of Kerry's lips -- There were no WMD's - George Bush mislead the American people -- it is another Viet Nam/a mess/a disaster in Iraq.

Those are just a few of the blatant lies.

It is as if we witnessed two entirely different realities regarding this election. John Kerry acted despicably when he left his soldiers behind in Viet Nam. THEN he turned around and lied under oath calling those same soldiers war criminals. How can you or anyone possibly compare the character of George Bush or their campaigns to one another? It's about truth, it's about honor, it's about integrity.

Lastly -- re: Gay marriage. Most Americans do not want the institution of marriage changed. While your concern is that we must all "try to get along" that is absolutely impossible. This country must base it's principles upon what is right and wrong, and understandably, not everyone will agree with these right and wrongs.

However, there actually are some ultimate truths. As a Christian, I believe these truths to be straight out of the Bible and I furthermore believe that this country was founded upon Judeo/Christian/Biblical values. Marriage between anyone other than one man and one woman is wrong. The American people have spoken and do not want lawmakers imposing their personal interpretation of legal issues upon the rest of us.

Americans have spoken and they want a President who tells us the truth, shoots straight from the hip, and says what he means and means what he says.

If someone disagrees with me, or what the American people obviously voted for, that's one of the things that makes this country great. We can disagree, we can go to the polls and vote about what we agree or disagree about and we can freely assemble with those who agree with us. But to attempt to compare the viciousness of the Kerry campaign to the campaign of President Bush is to me, not seeing reality.

Just FYI -- I'm an Army wife of over 25 years -- and it would have been a travesty if John Kerry had been the Commander in Chief -- it would have been a total nightmare. Thanks be to God for answered prayer.

[Savage Beast]

"A large part of the greatness of this Country has always been our ability, and willingness, to 'see' the other guy's point of view."

Close, but not quite.

No, on second thought, it's not even close.

It is easy to "see" the other guy's point of view--Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, bin Laden, for example, but that has nothing to do with greatness.

Greatness comes from the ability to to evaluate and understand that point of view and to accept it, reject it, tolerate it, or oppose it.

It's easy to understand Hitler's point of view, for example. He wanted to murder everybody he didn't like, including handicapped people, and to get them out of his way. He made his intentions clear and his plans known from the beginning. His point of view was not difficult to understand--though many people found it difficult to believe that he meant what he was saying, and the world paid a costly price for their folly.

The rest of these monsters are similar. There's nothing difficult to understand about their points of view.

Bin Laden's is quite clear and easy to understand.

And it doesn't require greatness to reject their points of view.

Greatness is having the courage, moral clarity, and self-confidence to oppose such a monster and his point of view.

Greatness is Todd Beamer and the other passengers taking action!

Greatness is Winston Churchill opposing Hitler and denouncing the cowardly and morally vacuous appeasement attempts of Chamberlain.

Greatness is the Americans--most of them under the age of 21--storming the beaches of Normandie--walking into machine gun fire.

Greatness is George Bush standing up to terrorists and the morally vacuous appeasers of the world!

[rennatdm]

The Left dominated Media is the main instigator of division.

[Stonedog]

I'm a moderate

What exactly does that mean? Does it mean you have no core values? Does it mean you are afraid to take a stand because it might offend someone? Are you saying that those of us who do believe there is a difference between the parties are extremists? In the culture war we find ourselves in as a country at this time, there is no room for fence sitters. You are either with me, or you are with the people who want to force feed our children there aberrant behavior, and misguided philosophy. We are a nation founded on Judaeo-Christian values. We remain great only by adhering to those values. Every time we allow the liberals to tear down another pillar of our freedoms, we lose a little of our greatness as a nation. Choose a side.