Skip to comments.VPC-Concealed Gun Permit Holders Kill 7 Police 44 Citizens in 2 yrs, nothing about armed criminals
Posted on 07/20/2009 8:52:51 PM PDT by bintenn
Concealed Handgun Permit Holders Kill 7 Police, 44 Private Citizens Over Two-Year Period
31 Incidents Result in Criminal Charges or Suicide of Concealed Handgun Permit Holder
Washington, DC--Concealed handgun permit holders killed at least seven police officers and 44 private citizens in 31 incidents during the period May 2007 through April 2009 according to a new study (http://www.vpc.org/studies/ccw2009.pdf) released today by the Violence Policy Center (VPC). The release of the study comes as the U.S. Senate is expected to take up today--Monday, July 20--an amendment to the defense authorization bill (S. 1390) that would create a de facto national concealed carry system, overriding the rights of states with more restrictive laws governing the carrying of concealed handguns. The amendment is sponsored by Senator John Thune (R-SD). Senator Charles Schumer (D-NY) has said he will filibuster the amendment.
Because most state systems allowing the carrying of concealed handguns in public by private citizens release little data about crimes committed by permit holders, the VPC reviewed shooting incidents as reported by news outlets. It is likely that the actual number of fatal criminal incidents involving concealed handgun permit holders is far higher.
The study, Law Enforcement and Private Citizens Killed by Concealed Handgun Permit Holders--An Analysis of News Reports, May 2007 to April 2009, finds that during the two-year period reviewed--
* Concealed handgun permit holders have slain seven law enforcement officers resulting in criminal charges or the suicide of the shooter. All of the killings were committed with guns. An additional three law enforcement officers were injured in these incidents.
* Concealed handgun permit holders have slain at least 44 private citizens resulting in criminal charges or the suicide of the shooter. All but one of the killings were committed with guns. An additional six private citizens were injured in these incidents.
* In six of the 31 incidents (19 percent), the concealed handgun permit holder killed himself, bringing the total fatality count to 57.
VPC Legislative Director Kristen Rand states, State concealed handgun systems are arming cop-killers and other murderers. It is beyond irrational for Congress to vote to expand the reach of these deadly laws.
The study offers detailed descriptions of the 31 incidents, which occurred in 15 states. Law enforcement officers were killed in: Florida, Idaho, Ohio (two incidents), and Pennsylvania (two incidents). Private citizens were killed in: Alabama, Colorado, Florida (nine incidents), Idaho, Kentucky, Minnesota, New York, North Carolina (two incidents), Ohio (three incidents), Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Utah (two incidents), and Virginia.
DU had a field day with is earlier today. Amazingly 75% of them agreed with us.
So let’s post a list of organizations for the various states here.
Rocky Mountain Gun Owners
Colorados No-Compromise Gun Rights Organization
I notice you’re new here at FR.
Why are you posting this without comment?
Blank profile page too!
Commented in the title “nothing about armed criminals”
...but, I think the article is stupid enough without me adding my comments to it.
What a typical piece of Horse Manure from VPC.
Wonder how many cops and private citizens were killed by CRIMINALS in the same time period?
OK, I have updated my profile and included my email. If you would like to come down to Tennessee, have a beer with me and talk politics, would love to have you ;)
Don’t get your knickers in a knot, we just need to make sure you aren’t another agent provocateur. We’ve had a few of those lately.
AND, donated $20 dollars. Boy - you guys are serious.
Nothing about how many crimes were prevented by CCP holders, either, let alone how many CCP holders successfully defended their own lives and the lives of others.
And, we thank you.
Boy, yes we are.
This is the most idiotic argument VPC has used to date. According to them, laws to allow concealed carry don’t work because someone might get a carry permit and then commit a crime, but laws against concealed carry work because no one will get a concealed carry permit and therefore no one will commit a crime.
What a bunch of morons.
I haven’t looked at this in detail yet, but the VPC is well known for putting out “studies” that are nothing more nor less than deliberate lies and propaganda. To say that their “studies” are crap is an unkindness to crap.
And that’s not a biased statement, it’s just the plain and simple truth. Lying with statistics is simply their routine mode of operation.
Regardless of Randy Weaver's possible criminal status, his wife was in no way a criminal, yet the government authorized gunning her down then later gave themselves absolution. Regardless of the criminality of the Waco compound of Koresh, the government slaughter the opposition complete with children rather than deal with the vagaries of the legal scrum. The government is all powerful when the SCOTUS refuses to uphold their oaths to the Constitution, as they have shwon in numerous modern era cases, like Roe v Wade. The federal black-robed oligarchs can creat penumbras if they cannot twist the constitutional wording.
now all you need is the secret handshake and a FR decoder ring...
Apparently more cops are killed in vehicle accidents:
If 35 were killed, the number of killings by concealed carry seem very high.
parsy, who is suspicious
A better link:
parsy, who’s attennae are twitching
Okay, so it sounds like around 120 to 140 police officers tend to be killed in traffic accidents over the course of two years.
On the VPC article, the following are included in their reports:
First, almost half of these were killed by one individual. In this particular case, the shooting took place at the shooter’s residence and I don’t see any indication that not having a permit would have stopped either the incident or the deaths.
One of the other murderers was apparently illegally issued a concealed handgun permit.
Another of the shooters mentioned (in this case no one was killed) “shot through a barricaded door,
wounding two police officers as they broke through it [in a drug raid]. Foster claimed he thought the house
was being robbed. Fosters lawyer claimed, ‘He didnt know they were police officers.’”
He stated that he never heard anybody identify themselves as police officers. He had no prior record, was not involved in any illicit drugs, and claims someone else fired the first shot and that he was reacting to a shot fired inward. (Nonetheless, he reportedly pled guilty to two counts of felonious assault.)
In another case, Christina Korbe “told police and relatives she didn’t know law enforcement officials had entered the house to apprehend her husband, Robert, on drug charges. She feared her home, on Wood Runs Road, was being robbed, and her protective maternal instincts kicked in.” She was apparently defending her children from unknown intruders who turned out to be police.
“They busted the door. She was scared. She shot,” said Mr. Roland, who talked to his sister on the phone Wednesday night after she’d been arrested.
“I didn’t know. I didn’t know,” she told her brother. He said she cried as they spoke.
As always, there’s NO attempt by the VPC to evaluate whether any of the people involved would have had guns on them if they hadn’t had a permit (many such cases either obviously would not have been prevented by not having a permit or do not involve the person actually carrying concealed!), and there is NO comparison with any good done by concealed carry permit holders. An earlier study by John Lott found that concealed carry permit holders assist law enforcement officers to a far higher degree than any danger they might possibly represent.
This would be especially true when you take out the incidents of police suddenly and unexpectedly busting doors down on innocent people.
The Violence Policy Center.
They don’t concern themselves with gang violence. Does that mean they condone it?
I’m aghast at this utterly ridiculous release. Its only purpose is to prey on ignorance, and very sparsely-existing ignorance at that.
I can produce numbers of successful, lawful defensive gun use that positively dwarf these absurd numbers.
Seldom have I seen a more pathetic argument.
The numbers, killed by gunfire:
half of 65=32+39+23=94. Of these they say 7 were killed by concealing carriers.
44 private citizens killed by concealing carriers. Probably close to 20,000 (a guess) killed by murderers.
I will try to find numbers
parsy, who is still suspicious
A couple of them were in cars, but essentially, the fact that the shooter had a concealed carry permit was completely irrelevant to the incident.
16,929 murders in 2007.
I am probably low guessing 20,000 murders, probably closer to 32,000 during the two year period. Oh boy 44 by the concealing carriers. Well less than 1%. About .0012.
parsy, who says thanks for breakdown of this alleged study!
Also, without further explanation, the odd-seeming choice of the period over which the "study" was conducted, "May 2007 through April 2009," should lead anyone with any critical thinking skills whatsoever to question whether there was some "cherry picking" done in order to exaggerate the propaganda effects of their "study"...
You miss the point, though. We don’t even have to contest these statistics. In fact, let’s double ‘em. Triple ‘em. They’re still a tiny squeak in the aggregate picture.
This does not say how many of the 'private citizens' were burglars, or how many of the shootings were in self-defense.
Right, about 1/10th of 1 percent.
And most of those wouldn’t have been prevented by not having a permit.
Weigh that against the good done by permit holders. This consists not only of known lives saved, but of unknown lives saved and crimes prevented due to the fact criminals were less reluctant to commit their crimes, because they didn’t know who might or might not be armed.
Oh, absolutely. Good catch. Unblushing cherry-picking of statistics is a core part of what the VPC does.
From the NRO
During Obamas tenure with the Joyce Foundation, donations to anti-gun groups increased dramatically. For example, in 1997 and 1998 the Violence Policy Center received $221,000 and $360,000 from the Foundation; those grants and donations increased to $1 million in 2000 and $800,000 in 2002. In all, during Obamas tenure, the group received $15 million from the Joyce Foundation.
The Violence Policy Center, despite its name, never seems all that concerned with beatings, stabbings, immolations or explosions. No, theyre completely focused on gun violence, and they can effectively be called an anti-gun or pro-gun control organization.
Groups like this can take any sort of statistics and shape them to shape their agenda.
“shape them to shape their agenda”....Guess I need sleep.
How many innocent citizens were murdered by cops going in the wrong house or shooting someone who was unarmed?
Of those charged, how many were actually convicted?
The FBI report, brought out every two years, puts the number of citizens who successfully defend themselves with firarms to be in the 2 to 3 million range per year. I am not sure I believe this report anyway, not as it is written. I would bet some of the numbers are cooked, and even if they are not 7 cops and 40 some odd civilians(they don’t actually say if some of those civilians were committing crimes)in 2 years is nothing compared to the number of actual permit holders. Just another left wing org trying to smear CCW holders.
Ah, gothcha, I missed it.
I lisp when I type, who knew?
Four of the incidents actually demonstrate the stupidity of their own ideas. V.P.C. thinks that white supremacists who kill cops will suddenly obey the law if there are no carry permits. Please. The only thing that would accomplish is a disarmed population of blacks for the Aryan Nation to murder on a whim.
Christina Korbe had a restraining order against her husband's sister. She says she didn't know her husband was dealing cocaine. She fired at an F.B.I. agent during a no knock raid. She says she did not know the man was an F.B.I. agent.
She's not the only one on the list. Derrick Foster shot two police officers who conducted a no knock raid on a house where he was playing in an illegal crap game. He says he thought the game was being robbed.
James Wonder is a local man and I recall the case. The Customs agent was off duty and had his son in the car when he went afterr James Wonder. Wonder says he killed the guy in self defense, and witnesses agree with him. The actions of Agent Petit were extremely questionbable and unprofessional.
Six out of seven deaths, and seven out of eight incidents, were twisted by V.P.C. for their own use. I am not surprised.
Good follow up. Catch them and expose them in their manipulation of the facts.
The VPC's sole agenda is the prohibition of firearms in all forms to the general citizenry, leaving the government they worship with a complete monopoly on force. Enemies Domestic.
I don’t think it’s a system, as much as it is forcing states to accept them the same way they all do driver’s licenses.
I would say DU as a whole is not pro gun control.
I've been reading some of your other posts.
You are caustic and obnoxious. Keep it up and we could be really good FRiends here.
Welcome to FR
Homicide is illegal. Assume criminal charges will be pressed no matter the situation. Self-defense is an "affirmative defense" (to wit: "yes, your honor, I did do X - but circumstances and law excuse me from punishment").
That charges are filed is irrelevant. CONVICTION is what matters.
Get off his case. Some articles are so plainly stupid as to not need commentary.
There is a small but fierce pro-RKBA contingent at DU. They want to convert the antis as much as we do.
And be sure to stune your beeber.
parsy, we must immediately ban police cars.
The best response to the ridiculous is ridicule.