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The Real 2016 Battle is Between Dick and Rand
The Moderate Voice ^ | June 25, 2014 | Dick Polman

Posted on 06/28/2014 3:19:35 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

It’s not exactly the Ali-Frazier “Thrilla in Manilla,” but the ongoing Rand Paul-Dick Cheney pugilism certainly packs a punch.

The libertarian ophthalmologist and the warlord emeritus have been pounding each other for months, and while it’s tempting to just kick back with popcorn and behold the entertainment, we do need to acknowledge the bout’s deeper meaning. Because this is really about something quite serious.

Republicans are profoundly split these days over foreign policy: between the non-interventionists who are increasingly wary of American military involvement abroad; and the neoconservative hawks who blundered us into Iraq and want us to keep flexing military muscle. Senator Paul is a leader of the non-interventionsts, a GOP faction that used to be tiny, but not anymore. The Iraq disaster has swelled their ranks, and Paul hopes to speak for them in the 2016 presidential primaries.

Cheney is freaked out about that; hence his creation of a new group, Alliance for a Stronger America, which is geared to rebut Paul at every turn. Cheney clearly hopes to influence the GOP’s foreign policy debate; his new group is set up to raise money from anonymous donors and steer the bucks to like-minded candidates.

Paul delivered the latest flurry of punches. Last Thursday, in his own Wall Street Journal column, he was clearly talking about Cheney: “Many of those clamoring for military action now (in Iraq) are the same people who made every false assumption imaginable about the cost, challenge and purpose of the Iraq war. They have been wrong for so long, why should we listen to them again?” Paul followed his column up with a weekend appearance on Meet the Press, where he questioned the credibility “of those who supported the Iraq war.” Cheney quickly retaliated on ABC’s This Week, labeling Paul as an “isolationist” and saying his views “didn’t work in the 1930s, it sure as heck won’t work in the aftermath of 9/11.”

It’s hard to say who started this spat, but Paul arguably did so in 2009, when he was caught on video suggesting that Cheney dragged us into Iraq to profit his old cronies at Halliburton. In the video, which surfaced this spring, Paul tells an audience of college students: “We need to be fearful of companies that get so big that they can actually be directing policy….Dick Cheney (during the ’90s) goes to work for Halliburton, makes hundreds of millions of dollars as their CEO. The next thing you know, he’s back in government, and it’s a good thing to go into Iraq.”

That was quite an insinuation, to say that Cheney ginned up a war to make money for his pals. When asked about the video this spring, Paul retreated a tad: “I’m not questioning Dick Cheney’s motives,” but nevertheless said: “When people go from high levels of government (Pentagon chief for Bush the elder) to high levels of industry that are dependent on government money, there’s a chance for a conflict of interest.”

Wow. You rarely hear that kind of talk in GOP circles, and Team Cheney didn’t like it. Cheney dispatched his daughter Liz (the daughter who bombed out in the Wyoming Senate race) to assert: “Senator Paul often seems to get his foreign policy talking points from Rachel Maddow.” Dad defended himself on CNN: “I had no relationship at all with the company throughout the time that I was vice president. I didn’t even talk to them…. So (Paul) is obviously not familiar with the facts.”

Dick Cheney, of all people, claiming that someone else is fact-challenged. Insert joke here.

Who should we root for in this ongoing Republican intramural? Probably Paul (grading on a curve), if only because of Cheney’s serial lies and performance failures. What’s unknowable is whether Paul can actually win the GOP nomination as a non-interventionist. Paul is currently first (just barely) in the latest Real Clear Politics aggregation of polls of a crowded field of potential 2016 candidates, but the truth is, most GOP primary voters traditionally favor a muscular foreign policy.

It’d be nice if the party found a middle ground (is there no such thing as prudent, fact-based interventionism?), but that won’t happen any time soon. As Paul warned the Cheney camp back in April, “sharpen your knives, because the battle once begun will not end easily.”


TOPICS: Issues; Parties; U.S. Senate
KEYWORDS: 2016; bush; cheney; iraq; isis; isolationism; lping; randpaul
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Vice President Cheney has held about a dozen high-level government offices and business positions since college, whilst Senator Rand Paul is a freshman senator and ophthalmologist with followers he inherited from his father. I think I would bet on Dick in a "knife fight", if his health doesn't worsen. A blind man can see where the author comes down in this argument, of course.
1 posted on 06/28/2014 3:19:35 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Hmmm ... Dick "deficits don't matter" Cheney versus Rand Open-Borders Paul. Can they both lose? Please?
2 posted on 06/28/2014 3:21:48 PM PDT by ConservingFreedom (A goverrnment strong enough to impose your standards is strong enough to ban them.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Randy should just make it official and become a Democrat.


3 posted on 06/28/2014 3:22:38 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum ("The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government." --Tacitus)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

One small matter:

Mr. Cheney we need to do something about American jobs and American manufacturing. America needs jobs, and America needs to bring back manufacturing.

America runs a massive trade deficit at the moment.

Both the GOP and the Democrats, are sitting on the sideline on this issue.

Just saying.


4 posted on 06/28/2014 3:22:48 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network (http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html#2013)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Proof that moderates as well as liberals still take LSD.


5 posted on 06/28/2014 3:22:57 PM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: ConservingFreedom

They’re both pro-gay marriage, too, from what I can tell.


6 posted on 06/28/2014 3:23:00 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out for himself.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
The Real 2016 Battle is Between Dick and Rand

Rand Paul was great - until recently. Now I'm beginning to wonder if he inherited insanity from his old man.

7 posted on 06/28/2014 3:28:53 PM PDT by The Sons of Liberty ("Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle?" - Patrick Henry, 1775)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Important as foreign policy is, the country is in such a mess right now it hardly matters.

The first order of business would be to impeach and remove the criminal, Communist, Muslim dictator in the White House. Then we can start worrying about the mess he has made in Iraq and elsewhere around the world.


8 posted on 06/28/2014 3:30:40 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Rand is a folking idiot


9 posted on 06/28/2014 3:31:37 PM PDT by yldstrk ( My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: The Sons of Liberty

‘Im convinced he tried to hide his fathers insanity but the mask has slipped and he is just as nutty as his father.


10 posted on 06/28/2014 3:32:00 PM PDT by manc (Marriage =1 man + 1 woman,when they say marriage equality then they should support polygamy)
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To: manc

Unfortunately, it sure looks that way.


11 posted on 06/28/2014 3:34:01 PM PDT by The Sons of Liberty ("Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle?" - Patrick Henry, 1775)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

this article is written by a hack.


12 posted on 06/28/2014 3:35:08 PM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (www.FireKarlRove.com NOW)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

go order some Chinese take out and get over yourself.


13 posted on 06/28/2014 3:35:35 PM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (www.FireKarlRove.com NOW)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Meh. Bunch of lightweight irrelevants. I only care about relevant heavyweights.


14 posted on 06/28/2014 3:35:42 PM PDT by RIghtwardHo
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To: All

This really is a crucial contest. It’s empire verses republic. What have Cheney’s wars gained us except a pile of dead Americans and even more people who hate us? We can’t re-engineer the world, as much as Cheney would like to, but we can thrive and prosper if we close our borders and re-focus on what made this country great.

Cheney is no conservative, he wants government to be as big as possible. Cheney is precisely what is wrong with the current batch of Republicans, and why real conservatives are frustrated.


15 posted on 06/28/2014 3:39:30 PM PDT by Gunpowder green
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To: ConservingFreedom
Can they both lose? Please?

Agreed.

I sit somewhere between the two, politically. I have been fans of both and have been pissed off by both.

16 posted on 06/28/2014 3:39:32 PM PDT by EricT. (Everything not forbidden is compulsory.)
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To: Gunpowder green

Cheney is not my fave by any means, but your left wing diatribe does not reflect well on you.


17 posted on 06/28/2014 3:41:55 PM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (www.FireKarlRove.com NOW)
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To: C. Edmund Wright
go order some Chinese take out and get over yourself.

You've gotta hand it to him, he's an indefatigable Johnny-One-Note who somehow manages to always make it to post #2, 3, or 4 on just about every thread, with the same "bring back jobs to America" post.

18 posted on 06/28/2014 3:48:55 PM PDT by COBOL2Java (I'm a Christian, pro-life, pro-gun, Reaganite. The GOP hates me. Why should I vote for them?)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Obama has put America in global retreat, he has created a true international force in terrorism which now has the money and arms and territory of a nation as they drive us out of the Middle East, and Obama has rebooted the Cold War with Russia and China with both on the move to conquer and invade, while not only reducing our military, but at the same time making “equality” the dominate goal of it’s focus.

America is afraid of the death and destruction that will be coming from his policies, and Rand Paul promises to continue Obama’s weakness if he becomes president in 2016.

Paul is promising hell on earth and global conflict and terrorism in our malls and schools.


19 posted on 06/28/2014 3:51:05 PM PDT by ansel12 (( Rand Paul---What a tragedy if America wouldn't have gotten to see Barack Obama as a leader.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
Randy should just make it official and become a Democrat.

Why?
There's no functional difference between Republican and Democrat.
(Republicans have no desire to stop statism, and in fact do what they can to continue it.)

20 posted on 06/28/2014 3:52:19 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: COBOL2Java
You've gotta hand it to him, he's an indefatigable Johnny-One-Note who somehow manages to always make it to post #2, 3, or 4 on just about every thread, with the same "bring back jobs to America" post.

He is that. I think they have meds for this now - he should look into them. (and as a bonus, those meds will likely be American made!!!!!)

21 posted on 06/28/2014 3:52:25 PM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (www.FireKarlRove.com NOW)
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To: The Sons of Liberty
Rand Paul was great - until recently. Now I'm beginning to wonder if he inherited insanity from his old man.

You know, despite the cries of Ron Paul is a nut, I think he would have been a better president in 2004/2880/2012 than who we got. — Remember that the whole point of the Congress being involved w/ cabinet-member confirmation is to provide tempering against crazy, radical, and tyranny.

22 posted on 06/28/2014 3:55:26 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I’m with Cheney on this. Paul can GFH, as far as I’m concerned. Between his stance on Voter ID, (against the Reps and with the Dems), his stance on felon voting rights (with the Dems and Harry Reid), his stance on legalizing some 40% of the illegal immigrants that he claims merely “lost” their documentation, and his current War on Cheney, he has proven himself to be an even bigger RINO than Romney.

The last thing we on the right need (especially now) is yet another ahole that spends more time agreeing with Democrats and demonizing Republicans than he does fighting the leftist agenda. Screw that.


23 posted on 06/28/2014 3:55:42 PM PDT by XenaLee (The only good commie is a dead commie)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

Last year China imported 440 billion dollars worth of goods, into America.

Last year America only exported 122 billion dollars worth of goods, into China.

Just saying.

America needs to export more, or we need to import less.

One or the other.


24 posted on 06/28/2014 3:58:25 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network (http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html#2013)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

Left wing? I am so far to the Right, I’d be banned in Massachusetts!

My point is that Cheney’s ideas have not served us well. Since 9/11 we have experienced a substantial loss of freedom. Armed FDA raids on the Amish anyone? We don’t need a Nanny State armed to the teeth dictating our every move. Cheney is about stripping us of freedom while handing out no-bid contracts to his connected friends. Cheney is what’s wrong with Washington.

Real Americans stand up for freedom. That means no government interference, respecting personal liberty and property rights, and minimal federal compulsion.

If it were up to me, I would shred the federal government to quarter or less of it’s present size. The Cheney’s of the world increase both the government and it’s reach (read DHS).

Cheney is no conservative.


25 posted on 06/28/2014 3:59:26 PM PDT by Gunpowder green
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To: COBOL2Java

How about we bring back jobs to America, then?

For an entire generation we have sent jobs offshore. Ever more jobs, offshore.

Republicans, and democrats, are both sending American jobs offshore. Who is saying we need to bring them back?

Who?

Bring jobs back here.


26 posted on 06/28/2014 4:01:26 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network (http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html#2013)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network; C. Edmund Wright

Like C. Edmund Wright said, you ought to take your meds; they’re probably American made!


27 posted on 06/28/2014 4:03:03 PM PDT by COBOL2Java (I'm a Christian, pro-life, pro-gun, Reaganite. The GOP hates me. Why should I vote for them?)
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To: COBOL2Java

All I am saying is, Americans need to work.

We seriously, need to bring back American jobs, and do things more for ourselves.

Someone needs to run with American employment, as a position.

I hope it is the GOP who gets with it.

I fear the GOP won’t do anything, and will instead wait for the democrats to do something, which will entail some sort of communism.

Wake up GOP. Americans need more jobs.

Jobs.


28 posted on 06/28/2014 4:07:32 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network (http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html#2013)
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To: Gunpowder green
"My point is that Cheney’s ideas have not served us well. Since 9/11 we have experienced a substantial loss of freedom. Armed FDA raids on the Amish anyone? We don’t need a Nanny State armed to the teeth dictating our every move. Cheney is about stripping us of freedom while handing out no-bid contracts to his connected friends. Cheney is what’s wrong with Washington."

Bullspit. (or some such other substance)

Here's a newsflash for ya. Cheney hasn't had any power in America to 'effect change' whatsoever since 2007, when the Democrats took control of both houses of Congress... making Cheney's boss, Bush, a lame duck president. Cheney isn't to blame for the current c'fuk we're in right now. That blame would be the Democratic Party's.....who have been in majority control of government for over seven years now.

But sure, if it makes you feel better to blame a Republican for the current disaster we're in for the past 7+ years, go ahead. And know that you are agreeing with the majority of leftists in America.

29 posted on 06/28/2014 4:08:02 PM PDT by XenaLee (The only good commie is a dead commie)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network; C. Edmund Wright
Do you walk around town with your "America needs jobs" message on a board too, or just pollute every single thread here on FreeRepublic with it? It seems to be an unhealthy obsession with you. Do you ever post anything else?


30 posted on 06/28/2014 4:12:07 PM PDT by COBOL2Java (I'm a Christian, pro-life, pro-gun, Reaganite. The GOP hates me. Why should I vote for them?)
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To: COBOL2Java

Well someone needs to do something.

The GOP isn’t doing one single thing. The democrats are not doing anything.

Just saying.


31 posted on 06/28/2014 4:15:44 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network (http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html#2013)
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To: COBOL2Java

He is obsessed - with this topic and China in particular. It cannot be healthy. He MUST start his meds. He’s gonna end up a serial killer or something.


32 posted on 06/28/2014 4:15:48 PM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (www.FireKarlRove.com NOW)
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To: COBOL2Java

He is obsessed - with this topic and China in particular. It cannot be healthy. He MUST start his meds. He’s gonna end up a serial killer or something.


33 posted on 06/28/2014 4:16:03 PM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (www.FireKarlRove.com NOW)
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To: XenaLee

I’m not blaming him for the current disasters, those are totally King Obongo’s. I am blaming him for his own disasters, and calling him out as not being a real Conservative.


34 posted on 06/28/2014 4:16:49 PM PDT by Gunpowder green
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To: Gunpowder green

Cheney is no Reagan, but he has some conservtive thoughts. But that’s not my main point…..

Which is: you might be right wing, but you slipped some liberal left wing bulsh-t into your post. Go back and see if you can pick it out.


35 posted on 06/28/2014 4:17:18 PM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (www.FireKarlRove.com NOW)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

I would seriously suggest to you that you have reached the point of diminishing returns with your incessant postings. No one pays any attention to them anymore, since they saturate every thread. In short, they don’t work any more; people just ignore them, shake their heads and go on. Try a new hobby.


36 posted on 06/28/2014 4:18:14 PM PDT by COBOL2Java (I'm a Christian, pro-life, pro-gun, Reaganite. The GOP hates me. Why should I vote for them?)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Polman cloaking himself as a moderate? Another rabid leftist dog has snapped his chain and is running around biting people with whom he has no business. The last time he voted for a Republican was for student council in home room.


37 posted on 06/28/2014 4:18:38 PM PDT by gusopol3
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To: C. Edmund Wright

China is now according to some numbers, the world’s largest manufacturer.

China is growing. Rapidly. Their population is also four or five times ours.

China exports a (lot) more than it imports.

Just saying. Someone needs to talk about American production.


38 posted on 06/28/2014 4:20:27 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network (http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html#2013)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Rand Paul is a lightweight struggling in a strong wind.


39 posted on 06/28/2014 4:20:30 PM PDT by Usagi_yo
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To: Usagi_yo
The score so far, take your choice:

Cheyney............Paul

W. Germany.........E. Germany

Japan..............China

S. Korea...........N.Korea

Russia.............USSR

Kurdistan..........Iran

40 posted on 06/28/2014 4:44:47 PM PDT by gusopol3
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

China has a billion people, a command economy, and we can’t do a damned thing about them. We dont vote there.

We need to export all of our liberalism….and if we did that, we woulnd’t have to worry a bit about China. You never figure that out. And you never talk about anything else.

get meds


41 posted on 06/28/2014 4:46:34 PM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (www.FireKarlRove.com NOW)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

I think actually, I am catching an equal but opposite bit of “free trade” from you.

I agree with you that China has a billion people, and a command economy. I completely agree.

What I am saying is, we need to stop buying everything from there.

That is my point.

Bring back jobs, to America.

We are currently 17.5 trillion dollars in debt.

That is rapidly increasing.

Bring back jobs, to America.


42 posted on 06/28/2014 4:50:28 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network (http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html#2013)
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To: Usagi_yo
Rand Paul is a lightweight struggling in a strong wind.<

Perfect analogy. Whereas Cheney is a serious heavyweight, anchored in a firm understanding of geopolitical reality.

A leaf vs a brick...

43 posted on 06/28/2014 5:06:54 PM PDT by okie01 (The Mainstream Media: Ignorance on parade.)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

That is a pretty useless post to make over and over and spam threads with.


44 posted on 06/28/2014 5:07:49 PM PDT by ansel12 (( Rand Paul---What a tragedy if America wouldn't have gotten to see Barack Obama as a leader.)
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To: ansel12

OK I’ll stop posting on this thread.

However I want to say before I leave:

We are sinking as a country. America is sinking. We are no longer exploring space. Our military budget is shrinking. And we continue to import ever more ... stuff.

Rapidly we have changed, and none of it for the better. We need to do something. Now.

We cannot simply keep on buying everything imported. We will eventually collapse.

I’m completely serious.

Off this thread now.


45 posted on 06/28/2014 5:13:17 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network (http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html#2013)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network; COBOL2Java; C. Edmund Wright
All I am saying is, Americans need to work.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with this.
In fact, might I be so bold as to say most here agree with the statement.

We seriously, need to bring back American jobs, and do things more for ourselves.
Someone needs to run with American employment, as a position.
I hope it is the GOP who gets with it.

Here's where the disagreement begins — for me it's because there's an implicit assertion here: that it is the government's role to ensure jobs. This is, to my thinking, incorrect: the government's job is to provide an environment where employers can employ and profit.

Governments do this by supporting justice, not by laying regulation upon rule upon law. (This also means that if the employer wrongs the employee, that employer should be punished; See James 5.) — And remember that justice is generally not promoted [and indeed undermined] when legal/allowable is dependent upon the actor.

If we were to drop the regulation-burden on the companies, that would certainly be a big step to igniting the economy… however, in order to do this we need to go on a wholesale purge of departments/agencies which are not Constitutional; this would reduce our Federal Government to essentially the following:

  1. Army (Though constitutionally we shouldn't have a regular army.)
  2. Navy (The marines are a subdepartment of the Navy.)
  3. Post Office
  4. Dept. of Transportation (Roads and interstate commerce.)
  5. IRS (Unless you want to debate on the validity of the 16th Amd.)
  6. Secret Service (Investigating/prosecuting counterfeiting only.)
  7. Patent Office
  8. State Dept. (Ambassadorial functions only.)

In the end you simply offer no real solutions, even when asked how? — this is what harms your message.

46 posted on 06/28/2014 5:15:06 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: ansel12; C. Edmund Wright
I tried to give him that advice back up in Post 36, but he ignored me. He's ignoring you as well. C. Edmund Wright is correct; he's obsessed, and it's probably unhealthy.
47 posted on 06/28/2014 5:20:18 PM PDT by COBOL2Java (I'm a Christian, pro-life, pro-gun, Reaganite. The GOP hates me. Why should I vote for them?)
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To: Gunpowder green

Well if Cheney isn’t a “”real”” conservative, he’d do (with me) until the real thing comes along (if ever).

I have immense respect for Dick Cheney, moreso than I had for Bush during his first term (after that it kinda went downhill re: that respect). I know Cheney’s background and I know what he stands for. He’s for a strong national defense and military....which I am also for (it’s the only thing government really should be required to do with the billions of our tax dollars, and should be required to do it well, instead of half-assed under Democrats)...

and we wouldn’t be in the fix we’re in NOW if Cheney was in command or CIC. Just sayin...


48 posted on 06/28/2014 5:23:46 PM PDT by XenaLee (The only good commie is a dead commie)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network
What I am saying is, we need to stop buying everything from there

Who is "we?" More to the point, "who" are you suggesting put a stop to this buying. And WTF are you saying is "how" we stop this buying. You really think government bureaucrats can figure this out? You offer the same platitudes over and over and over, and never anything more than that. This is what irritates people. And you also keep repeating stats that no one disagrees with. You just don't have the slightest idea of how macro economics work. Not the foggiest.

49 posted on 06/28/2014 5:28:04 PM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (www.FireKarlRove.com NOW)
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To: XenaLee

We are in the fix we are in now because of Cheney! We have had massive spending that we can’t reasonably ever repay due to the wars started by Bush/Cheney and continued by Obozo (though arguably Obozo has been much worse). The fact that there is no difference between Republican and Democrat foreign policy should give you some kind of clue.

If Cheney was CIC, we would have already had wars with Iran and Syria, and would likely be gearing up for World War Three with either Russia, China, or both.This guy is toxic, detrimental, and against everything that America stands for.


50 posted on 06/28/2014 5:42:35 PM PDT by Gunpowder green
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