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China rediscovers technology
Atlanta Journal Constitution ^ | October 13, 2003 | John Garver

Posted on 10/13/2003 1:05:48 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife

China's launch of a manned, Earth-orbiting satellite symbolizes a great nation's accelerating return to its normal position of global technological leadership.

Contrary to the stereotype common in the West of pre-modern China as a land of technological stagnation, for most of its history China was one of the leading technological powers of the world.

The great historian of Chinese science and technology, Joseph Needham, found 26 basic technological innovations made in China and subsequently transferred to the West, compared to four innovations made in the West and transferred to China. One of the subway stations in Beijing is decorated with murals celebrating China's "four great inventions": gunpowder, the compass, printing and paper. China is now returning to the position of technological leadership it held throughout most of history.

The Chinese people are immensely proud of their ancient technological achievements and convinced that China's falling-behind the West in this regard over the past several centuries was an aberration. Or, it was the result of vicious Western imperialism that deliberately sought to suppress China.

Pride in high profile and immensely difficult technological achievements such as space exploration are seen by most Chinese as testament to China's reclaiming of its rightful place in the sun.

Some Chinese believe in their hearts that Chinese are really superior to Westerners in terms of basic abilities and see China's growing technological prowess as confirmation of these racial prejudices. Popular appeal is one reason why the Chinese government is able to invest vast sums in an ambitious space program, even though China faces immense social needs. Achievements in space exploration also allow the Chinese government to claim it is blotting out the past century of "humiliation" of China.

A large part of China's space technology came from Russia. In the 1950s, China's acquired basic rocket technology from its Soviet ally. It also acquired substantial assistance from Qian Xuesen, a Cal Tech-trained physicist who worked on rocket development at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in the United States during the 1940s. These sources facilitated China's effort to launch its first satellite in 1970. Then when Beijing and Moscow began restoring friendly cooperation in 1989-1990, space was identified as an area with great potential for cooperation. Over the next decade China basically bought and cloned the former Soviet space program.

Assimilation of foreign technology is not, however, a reason to disparage China's achievements in space. The United States space program in the 1950s and 1960s drew deeply on German technology. The key to technological prowess is not relying only on your own resources, but scouring the earth to find and assimilate the most advanced knowledge available anywhere in the world. After a long period of self-satisfied "self-reliance" under both traditional and Red emperors, China has finally learned this lesson.

Nationalist Chinese writers talk about a Chinese colony on the moon and exploration of the other planets. China's economic rise will probably provide the government the fiscal resources necessary to pursue these dreams.

The United States seems to have lost interest in vigorous space exploration. Perhaps a good dose of Chinese competition will rekindle American enthusiasm. In any case, the United States will have to learn to live with a China that is restoring its long-lost position of global technological leadership.

John Garver is a professor of international affairs at Georgia Tech.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: china; nationalsecurity; shenzhouv; space; technology
Now China is sending a man into space. Why? By Joan Johnson-Freese, chairwoman of the National Security Decision Making Department at the U.S. Naval War College.

Red Dragon Rising: China's Space Program Driven by Military Ambitions

CHINA'S NEW FRONTIER: U.S. threw out man who put China in space [Excerpt] As World War II wound down, Tsien was made a colonel in the U.S. Army Air Forces and sent to Europe in 1945. His mission: Size up the German V-2 rocket program developed by Hitler's Third Reich.

There, he met and interviewed young Wernher von Braun, the V-2 project's technical director who one day would become the visionary behind the Saturn V rocket that put America on the moon. During their meeting, Tsien asked von Braun to put down on paper German breakthroughs and future space goals. The resulting report is credited with helping inspire development of the first U.S. satellites.

After the war, Tsien became the youngest full professor on the faculty at MIT. During a 1947 visit to see his family in China, he met Jiang Ying, a glamorous aristocrat who studied music in Germany and was one of China's most celebrated young sopranos. Her father -- a military adviser for Chiang Kai-shek's Nationalist government -- was helping wage a civil war aimed at crushing Mao Tse Tung's communist rebels.

The couple married later that year and moved back to America. When Tsien re-entered the United States in Honolulu, he reflexively answered "no" to a question on an immigration form asking whether he had ever belonged to a group advocating overthrow of the U.S. government. [End Excerpt]

(December 10, 2001) CHINA'S NEW FRONTIER China finds launches lucrative [Excerpt] There also were accusations -- adamantly denied -- that Loral's chairman influenced a Clinton administration licensing decision with a hefty donation to the Democratic National Committee. License approval eventually was shifted from the Commerce Department to the more restrictive State Department.

The Clinton White House announced in November 2000 that it would resume processing export licenses and extend China's launch privileges through 2001 after Beijing agreed to a missile nonproliferation pact. But the Bush administration says outstanding issues remain in implementing the nonproliferation agreement. New satellite export licenses remain on hold. Sen. Jesse Helms, R-N.C., and three other lawmakers urged President Bush in July not to resume licensing under any condition. [End Excerpt]

December 09, 2001) China's great leap forward: Space [Excerpt] "The space industry is not only a reflection of the comprehensive national strength but also an important tool for leaping over the traditional developing stage," said Liu Jibin, minister of China's Commission of Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense.

If China makes that leap, the country's civil and military space efforts could close the gap between East and West in years instead of decades. Technology is critical to China's development of bigger, better missiles and space-based defenses as well as the country's commercial ambitions. Market reforms and cheap labor already are turning a once-stagnant, planned economy into a powerhouse.

Signs of the transformation can be seen everywhere in China's cities. Bumper-to-bumper car traffic has replaced bicycle gridlock. McDonald's and Kentucky Fried Chicken are almost as common as traditional roadside food stalls. Chairman Mao's wardrobe has been mothballed in favor of Western fashions. Handbills and posters are more likely to tout the qualities of European cigarettes than the virtues of class struggle.

One thing, however, hasn't changed: Most of China's space program remains closed to the outside world. Even so, a few Chinese officials are cautiously -- almost reluctantly -- beginning to open up.

A two-week tour of Chinese aerospace facilities this fall and talks with high-level managers, many of whom have been off-limits to Americans, revealed this about the country's mysterious manned program:

China likely will launch its first astronaut sometime in 2003 after six or so unpiloted test flights of its manned spacecraft. The next test flight -- the third overall -- is expected to blast off before the end of January.

Preliminary design of a Chinese space station already is under way. A modest outpost with limited capabilities could be developed during the next decade.

And there's even talk of sending people to the moon and building lunar bases in the next decade. [End Excerpt]

1 posted on 10/13/2003 1:05:48 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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2 posted on 10/13/2003 1:07:57 AM PDT by Support Free Republic (Your support keeps Free Republic going strong!)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Also known as the Clinton treason technology boost.
3 posted on 10/13/2003 1:13:28 AM PDT by Taiwan Bocks
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
This is a strange rosy picture of Chinese technology, and makes no mention of how many aspects were stolen, and its underlying problems ala the Soviet model.

"Everyone can see how Communism rots the soul of a nation; how it makes it abject and hungry in peace, and proves it base and abominable in war." - Winston Churchill, referring to Finland's accomplishments over Soviet Russia early in WWII.

4 posted on 10/13/2003 1:22:06 AM PDT by C210N
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To: Taiwan Bocks
- Clinton's foreign policy outreach - Clinton's R&D give away for campagin cash - Clinton's leveling the playing field for anti-Americans -
5 posted on 10/13/2003 1:24:17 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: C210N
Bump!
6 posted on 10/13/2003 1:26:23 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: C210N
Your comment reminds me of a quote from "The Right Stuff", namely "Our Germans are better than their Germans". Commenting on how the US and Russia split the pool of European scientests before and after WWII.
Then again, the U and China are supposed to be friends.
7 posted on 10/13/2003 1:44:15 AM PDT by Unassuaged
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To: Support Free Republic
Your post said, "Some Chinese believe in their hearts that Chinese are really superior to Westerners in terms of basic abilities and see China's growing technological prowess as confirmation of these racial prejudices."

I have some experience with this attitude, and have found that not "Some Chinese believe in their hearts that Chinese are really superior to Westerners in terms of basic abilities" as much as "Almost all Chinese believe in their hearts that Chinese are really superior to Westerners in terms of basic abilities, morality, understanding, and virtue." I would go farther and call my words a vast understatement. Take the American view of Africans from 1900 and multiply by ten. Although I am certain not to be believed by most readers, more accurately multiply by one hundred!

The Korean slang word for Africans (and Koreans are not culturally or genetically very different from Chinese when compared to Westerners) is translated accurately as "rock apes." The Chinese are still somewhat intimidated by caucasians and so caucasians are rarely insulted to their faces (although ask one his opinion of Russians!), even though westerners are not seen by Chinese as much different from Africans.

So don't get a swelled head!

8 posted on 10/13/2003 1:46:43 AM PDT by Iris7 (Victory, always Victory, at any cost, though the beasts of Hell march against us!!!!!)
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To: Unassuaged; Iris7; All
China Plans Giant Step This Week***BEIJING, Oct. 12 - Amid all the clutter that has been rocketed into space is a clunky satellite expected to circle the Earth until 2070. The satellite, the Dong Fang Hong, was the first ever launched by China, in 1970, and is also an extraterrestrial boombox: It broadcasts into the cosmos the strains of the Maoist anthem, "The East is Red."

If China becomes the third nation to send an astronaut into space, as it plans to do on Wednesday, its top leaders will be sending a new message, to two audiences.

To the rest of the world, China is displaying its growing technological prowess, staking its claim to a future role in space and reasserting its case for being considered a power equal to the United States.

To its own people, the Chinese leadership hopes to stir pride and nationalism and to prove that the Communist Party, rather than being a dinosaur, is capable of the most technical of achievements. A full-throttle propaganda campaign is under way, with huge coverage in state-run newspapers and a 20-part series about the space program about to run on state-run television.

"It's primarily about showing the world; it's about prestige," said Brian Harvey, author of a 1998 book about the Chinese space program. "It's a vindication of their political system." ***

9 posted on 10/13/2003 1:53:07 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Iris7
Rereading my reply I fear I have made an impression I didn't intend. The "don't get a swelled head" refers mostly to my own childhood years, about half spent living in East Asia or growing up with Asians in Hawaii. A daunting experience! Eye opening! I still to this day find almost all Americans provincial, with no understanding of the world and their place in it.

I remember with affection the culture shock experienced by other GIs when they first experienced East Asia. They meant well, but were uniformly lost children far from home.

10 posted on 10/13/2003 1:58:58 AM PDT by Iris7 (Victory, always Victory, at any cost, though the beasts of Hell march against us!!!!!)
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To: Iris7
Bump!
11 posted on 10/13/2003 2:39:57 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
China hasn't rediscovered anything. It has stolen the technology from the United States. It still is stealing it. America is full of Chinese spies.
12 posted on 10/13/2003 3:44:27 AM PDT by NoControllingLegalAuthority
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To: NoControllingLegalAuthority
Next, Go Back to the Moon***We have a unique opportunity to accomplish important national goals. A return to the moon will aid our security by giving the United States access to valuable lunar resources (our first off-world "El Dorado") and will augment our economic infrastructure by increasing access to Earth orbit. A program to return to the moon ties NASA to important national priorities and makes it a player in the emerging solar system economy. The moon gives NASA an exciting, vigorous mission and paves the way to the planets beyond.***
13 posted on 10/13/2003 3:56:03 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Travel to the moon does a lot of things but, under the present plans NASA has, the US will not be among the moon's visitors. NASA has a bad habit of "socializing" plans it knows it will never follow through on in order to maintain interest and, more importantly, FUNDING, for its carnival ride that circles the earth.

As long as our space vehicles are airplanes equipped with landing gear, NASA will not be returning to any astral body but the one we are on. Neither the moon, Mars, or any other space body has a landing field for the shuttle to touch down on, nor does their next planned space vehicle provide any capability to touch down anywhere other than good old mother earth.

Objective studies have shown that the dollars poured down NASA's space shuttle rat hole since the program began have failed to yield anything which could not be done cheaper and every bit as well on earth. The shuttle has failed to live up to expectations and NASA has covered it up with blather and lies.

I am a big supporter of space exploration, but I have become disenchanted with NASA and its re-defined mission to circle the earth every 90 minutes. Since they sold us the idea of the shuttle, NASA has had no inclination to return to the moon, much less conduct manned exploration of any other planet or body floating out in space. Whenever budget time comes around, NASA routinely floats the notion of a manned trip to Mars sometime in the next 15 years to increase their funding, but the dates of a Mars trip keep moving out.

China, courtesy of US technology and Bill Clinton, is reaching out to space to do what we failed: establish a colony and provide a base from which to launch missions into deeper space. As long as our space vehicles are equipped with landing gear and not landing or booster rockets, we will have to be content to sit back and watch the Chinese do what we were supposed to.
14 posted on 10/13/2003 4:27:30 AM PDT by DustyMoment
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To: DustyMoment
Well, if NASA won't do it, they will leave the playing field and the Department of Defense will take over.
15 posted on 10/13/2003 4:30:55 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: DustyMoment
China, courtesy of US technology and Bill Clinton, is reaching out to space to do what we failed....

But can we say our Clintons are better than their Clintons? Probably not.

16 posted on 10/13/2003 5:17:10 AM PDT by OESY
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Or, it was the result of vicious Western imperialism that deliberately sought to suppress China.

Actually the result of the Opium Trade. Great Britain produced opium in its colony in India, and then shipped it to China for sale. Although China resisted, Britain was militarily superior.

Imagine what the cocaine trade from Colombia to the US would be like if it were run by a militarily superior power.

17 posted on 10/13/2003 5:37:10 AM PDT by Lessismore
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To: Support Free Republic
We have no one to blame but ourselves for sloughing off in the space race. As an astronautical engineering student at MIT in the late 70's - our systems engineering class was used by the professors to flesh out lunar mining and space manufacturing infrastructure designs - that they would present to Congress. That was then. What happened?

The ridiculously expensive Shuttle system siphoned off a lot of the funds that would otherwise have gone into more economical launch to LEO concepts - but the real problem was a dissolution of national will. Maybe China's launches will be a well-needed kick in the butt - a Sputnik II.
18 posted on 10/13/2003 5:49:43 AM PDT by ctonious
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To: Lessismore
Or, it was the result of vicious Western imperialism that deliberately sought to suppress China.

Actually the result of the Opium Trade. Great Britain produced opium in its colony in India, and then shipped it to China for sale. Although China resisted, Britain was militarily superior.

Imagine what the cocaine trade from Colombia to the US would be like if it were run by a militarily superior power.

Not many people know the shameful history of the opium wars. As a teenager - my Dad was posted to Hong Kong - and it was there I learned about how Hong Kong came into being:

Here at The Western World (shades of Steely Dan), people liked silk - and were willing to pay exorbitant sums for it. Good thing, because China would only take gold and silver and would't buy squat from the West (Deja Vu all over again). Britain (and the US) said "Well, this won't do, we're exhausting our national treasuries" - and their marketing guys got together to figger out how to generate demand for something..ANYTHING...that they could hock to the Chinese.

Opium was the answer - and the Brits had plenty of it in India. Plus, when they drove into 5th and MLK boulevard with the stuff, they could outgun the local cops with 102-gun ships of the line.

The local governor declared a WOD, and one thing led to another - and it turned into a real shooting war, albeit the shooting came primarily from the side with the guns - and the left-over boxers usually danced to avoid the bullets, until a bullet took them out anyway...so much for magic.

The local Brit Admiral was in charge of postwar negotiations to exact Britain's and the West's tribute. It was then that trade was forcibly instigated - thru trade missions in Shanghai and other port cities - but the big enchilada was Hong Kong - in the visionary view of the Admiral, who saw Hong Kong harbor as one of the premier deep-water ports in Asia.

Hong Kong was thus ceded to the Brits as a BCC - British Crown Colony - and the Admiral hurried back to England with the good news. He was summarily sacked by the Queen - who was royally PO'ed that all that war expense had gotten them exactly 29.4 square miles of barren rock (Hong Kong Island), 2-odd square miles of the mainland (Kowloon), and the humiliating requirement to lease the 377 square miles of greater Hong Kong (New Territories) that the Admiral had wanted.

However, it turned out to be one of the most lucrative deals the Brits ever made, for them and China. History sometimes works in frikked-up ways.

19 posted on 10/13/2003 6:09:25 AM PDT by ctonious
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To: Iris7
The middle kingdom has always been the center of the earth. It is only a slight abberation that the past several centuries have left china in the dust. Chinese hegemony will fuel the muslims to war against the christian (or post christian) west so that china can again be the pre-eminent power on earth.

Most encouragement to muslim nations and to enemies of the west comes from china. Pray to heaven for help - we need it now. There are more Christian conversions in asia and africa than anywhere else - but they may not occur fast enough to prevent future confrontations with "the middle kingdom"

The biggest problem of the western world today is the lack of will to face reality. Our leaders and institutions slant the truth and squelch any initiative to actively support our own well being in the name of "diversity", a common buzzword that acts like a free pass.

In reality, confusion and lack of common purpose grease the skids and "the west" continues to slip slide away into oblivion.

20 posted on 10/13/2003 6:20:44 AM PDT by Podkayne
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
IMO, the only way that the DoD will get the funding to (in essence) replace NASA is by exploiting the Chinese space program as a threat to the US.

Hollyweird has used this scenario to make several low-budget sci-fi flicks and, as it typically does, it appears that science fiction is becoming science fact.

The big question remains: how will we respond to the Chinese space program? I honestly don't believe that NASA is up to the task. They are too busy licking their wounds and attempting to regain the trust of the American public to plan any gutsy new exploration of space that takes US astronauts beyond the first 300 miles of the earth's surface.
21 posted on 10/13/2003 6:42:36 AM PDT by DustyMoment
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To: DustyMoment
The space program in the future is going to be different, but will still give ever more deadly ways for our military to kill. So, rest assure sir the chinese are no threat with there tired, backward little space program. America exo-atmospheric kill vehicle, space plance, JSF project, Super Hornet, Steath Carrier and Destroyer projects, 13 aircraft carriers. Need I go any further, and educating you on how far the Chinese need to go before they are even a minor threat to us, history only megapower.
22 posted on 10/13/2003 9:53:40 AM PDT by harryK
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To: harryK
You've got a point. Rember that the F-117 concept was ~25 years old (IIRC) before the public ever learned anything about it.
23 posted on 10/13/2003 10:08:32 AM PDT by Constantine XIII
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To: DustyMoment; Cincinatus' Wife
Dusty, I am with you one hundred percent. NASA run properly, (by me, say!!! More realistically by Jerry Pournelle and Burt Rutan, with the big boss being a General Groves (Manhattan Project) who is a real space person) would have spent the Shuttle money and time wisely. There would have been nuclear powered ships back from Mars since 1990. Satellite solar power would be on track to replace fossile fuels, and already supplying five or ten percent of the world's electricity. The might have beens!

Amongst other interests I have an engineering bent. I have been thinking about the Shuttle for thirty years, nearly, and my unhappy conclusion, well supported by numerical reasoning, is that the Shuttle on the concept level is deeply and hopelessly flawed. An accurate analogy is that making a space craft like an airplane is like making an airplane like a steam locomotive. Fine engineering has made this misguided pastiche, this kluge, this utterly unrealistically concieved misapplication of effort, function at all. I have been amazed for years that the tiles have been made to stay on during re-entry, much less the leading edge carbon-carbon hasn't broken or burned up before recent times. Besides many other things, why spend $10,000 per pound to lift the 200,000 pound Shuttle into orbit ($2,000,000,000) when you are just going to fly it back to Earth? Use the resources for Space stuff, not Earth stuff, for Heaven's sake.

What I hear from the military is that they are making a serious attempt to bypass the NASA roadblock to space, rethinking the whole thing from scratch, and building the heavy lift capacity at an affordable price that we so vitally require. There is a bunch of other military stuff that I "read in the tea leaves". I deal almost entirely with the public info, but am not totally out of the loop. Many good things are being done and our money is being spent very intelligently. All services are competing to show that they are the smartest and best, and of course, they all are!!

Be of good hope, support our people, hang tough, fight the Left stubbornly and efficiently (Schumer, of all people, has been coming out against American Wahabbism strongly, time to give the gun control nut a hand and show him us 2nd Amendment folks are nothing to be feared but instead respected and even liked - the enemy of your enemy is always, always, your friend,(but of course watch your wallet and silverware!!) and our boys will have the Cavalry ready in time to save the day.

24 posted on 10/13/2003 12:41:51 PM PDT by Iris7 (Victory, always Victory, at any cost, though the beasts of Hell march against us!!!!!)
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To: harryK
Notice my #24. We need to buck up the discouraged, tell them that things are going better, keep the Ted Kennedys under control, politically destroy the Grays, keep George Bush in office, and very importantly support the military push toward space weapons for Earth combat.

I see you are a comrade in arms. Victory!

25 posted on 10/13/2003 12:48:57 PM PDT by Iris7 (Victory, always Victory, at any cost, though the beasts of Hell march against us!!!!!)
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To: NoControllingLegalAuthority
"America is full of Chinese spys."

Agreed. Another job that needs doing.

26 posted on 10/13/2003 12:50:30 PM PDT by Iris7 (Victory, always Victory, at any cost, though the beasts of Hell march against us!!!!!)
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To: NoControllingLegalAuthority
"America is full of Chinese spys."

Agreed. Another job that needs doing.

27 posted on 10/13/2003 12:53:47 PM PDT by Iris7 (Victory, always Victory, at any cost, though the beasts of Hell march against us!!!!!)
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To: ctonious
Agreed.

A good job of history telling. One hopes for a Sputnik 2 here as well.

28 posted on 10/13/2003 12:55:23 PM PDT by Iris7 (Victory, always Victory, at any cost, though the beasts of Hell march against us!!!!!)
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To: Podkayne
I like your name. I always have had a soft spot for that story. I think Heinlein was saying that we have to have Poddy's optimism and at the same time her younger brother's wisdom, understanding of human nature, carefull planning and skillful execution. Perhaps he was saying that neither point of view is adequate of itself, but instead virtue lies in rejecting Podkayne's lack of realism and her brother's hatred of his neighbor.

"Be as innocent as doves and as wise as serpents."

I fear Americans have abandoned seeking the truth, abandoned wisdom, and no longer see that "The beginning of wisdom is to fear the Lord." Our hope is in Him, as "All things are possible in God." It is impossible to pray and study scripture and instruct and be instructed in the Way to excess. There are hard times coming, as He will not soften hearts in the wholesale fashion needed to fix the situation rapidly, as He has other plans. This is reliable information, came after much intense prayer.

29 posted on 10/13/2003 1:12:35 PM PDT by Iris7 (Victory, always Victory, at any cost, though the beasts of Hell march against us!!!!!)
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To: Podkayne
Hi, Poddy,

My tagline is not metaphor. The Beats of Hell are real, and march against us.

By God and Saint Michael! Victory!

30 posted on 10/13/2003 1:16:03 PM PDT by Iris7 (Victory, always Victory, at any cost, though the beasts of Hell march against us!!!!!)
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To: Iris7; harryK; DustyMoment; ctonious; All
China's man in space As China uses its cheap labor to become the world's manufacturing center, it generates huge amounts of foreign exchange that enable it to finance both military modernization and space adventures. Chinese officials claim the Shenzhou program is "purely for peaceful purposes," but the orbital module already is being used to gather electronic intelligence (ELINT).

The first manned flight is expected to be in space for only 90 minutes. But after separation, the orbital module — with its own propulsion system for autonomous flight — will stay in space for up to eight months. The orbital modules of Shenzhou 3 and 4 had an ELINT capability that included three antennas aimed at Earth to determine the source of ultra-high frequency emissions, plus other antennas designed to detect and locate radar transmissions. The Soviets used similar transmissions to monitor movements of U.S. Navy ships.

It may be true that China's astronauts will not engage in military activities, at least initially, but the orbital module they leave behind is loaded with equipment that will autonomously conduct surveillance from space. Data are downloaded electronically when the spacecraft is over China. The Shenzhou 3 and 4 orbital modules were China's first ELINT satellites. They have enabled Beijing to track U.S. naval movements since March 2002.

31 posted on 10/14/2003 2:23:24 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: All
EU viewed by China as world power to rival US ***France and Germany have been pushing hardest for closer ties with China, hoping to cash in on a lucrative market but also to develop a strategic alliance as a counterweight to American power after the diplomatic trauma of the Iraq war.

Last June, the French defence minister, Michele Alliot-Marie, proposed sharing sensitive military technology with Beijing. She called for a softening of the arms embargo imposed on the country after the Tiananmen Square massacre in 1989.

The Chinese already have the world's second biggest defence budget, £40 million annually, but they have to rely on outdated weaponry bought from Russia and Ukraine.

Yesterday's white paper said the ever-closer military ties rendered the EU embargo a relic from the last century.

China's efforts to court Brussels reflect a new mood of respect for the EU across Asia. India is also rushing to upgrade its ties with Europe, recruiting extra staff to lobby EU officials and MEPs.***

32 posted on 10/14/2003 3:51:42 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
That is a good post. I'll have to work harder on Chinese Elint.

Obvious why they forced down our Navy Elint flight, going so far as to lose a fighter and pilot. Plausible deniability that it was an "accident", "unintentional", etc., Ha Ha.

Be fun to work on current Elint countermeasures. Got some ideas, let me loose!!

33 posted on 10/14/2003 12:11:53 PM PDT by Iris7 (Victory, always Victory, at any cost, though the beasts of Hell march against us!!!!!)
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To: Iris7
No ideas. I hope our guys have plenty.
34 posted on 10/14/2003 12:15:21 PM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
There is no room for science in China's philosophies.
35 posted on 10/14/2003 12:17:15 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Law of the Excluded Middle)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Expectable, predictable. Lots of "peoples" figure they should rule the world. They usually cost a lot of innocents lives, liberty, and property.

The French have been doing this sort of thing for a long time. Richeleau stoked the fires of the Thirty Years war, helping the weaker side in alteration, having Wallenstein killed, etc., in order for France to be pre-eminent in Europe afterward.

36 posted on 10/14/2003 12:20:01 PM PDT by Iris7 (Victory, always Victory, at any cost, though the beasts of Hell march against us!!!!!)
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To: Iris7
"I still to this day find almost all Americans provincial, with no understanding of the world and their place in it.
"

So are you saying the masses in China etc., have a great understanding of the world and their place in it?
37 posted on 10/14/2003 12:23:37 PM PDT by subterfuge
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To: RightWhale
It's hard to stop a train carrying 2 billion people. This nationalist appeal is very effective and we may have already lost our edge. The poor quality of U.S. public school graduates will be felt for a long time.
38 posted on 10/14/2003 12:24:00 PM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: RightWhale; Cincinatus' Wife
Some truth in what you say. I see major Chinese factions as so hot to be the Big Dog in the world that they will do whatever it takes to get there. We will have to play the thing out.

If we are willing to learn faster than they are we will win out. Have your children and grandchildren of sound character study Chinese language and culture, both for their prosperity and for the protection of our people. My oldest daughter is taking the most intensive Chinese program at the University of Wisconsin at Madison, a program in the top ten nationally. I expect she will spend a year if not more at Peking University.

If I had my way I would have the government go to Bruce Schneier of Counterpane for overall security analysis. He is the best there is. The Feds do staff from people in his field, and Schneier has a stellar reputation amongst all the folks in it. Still, always get the best man you can afford if the job must be done right!

39 posted on 10/14/2003 12:38:08 PM PDT by Iris7 (Victory, always Victory, at any cost, though the beasts of Hell march against us!!!!!)
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To: subterfuge
Not at all. We have, to use a football analogy, good running backs, recievers, and a quarterback who can think, run, and has a heck of an arm. A fine defense, too. Shucks, I'm part of it!! Mostly sit on the bench these days, darn it!!

But to win we have to play the game, especially in our hearts and minds, as Lombardi taught it.

As far as the Chinese team, to continue the metaphor, I see weaknesses in their defense and offense. Their "internal" problems are severe and can be effectively exploited. Bush is doing his usual fine job.

Boy, George Bush is something else!! What a quarterback!! Hall of Famer, at least!! Metaphor aside, President Bush plays a very, very deep game with stunning skill and persistance. I can see something of what he is doing and have worked hard to do so.

40 posted on 10/14/2003 12:53:07 PM PDT by Iris7 (Victory, always Victory, at any cost, though the beasts of Hell march against us!!!!!)
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To: Taiwan Bocks; Cincinatus' Wife
 

 

 hillary talks: ON CHINA

 

(viewing movie requires Flash Player 6, available HERE)

missus clinton's REAL virtual office update
http://hillarytalks.blogspot.com
http://www.hillarytalks.us
http://www.hillarytalks.org
 


41 posted on 10/16/2003 9:40:43 AM PDT by Mia T (Stop Clintons' Undermining Machinations (The acronym is the message.))
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