Ancient remains found in central Florida peat farm

Associated Press in Naples (FL) News ^ | October 13, 2003 | N/A

[Renfield]

Extinction of megafauana was caused by overhunting by Paleoindians. There was no other cause. Those who propose climatic change ignore the fact that there were numerous cold-warm cycles throughout the Pleistocene, and that the megafauna managed to survive them just fine, despite the fact that climatic fluctuations during those cycles were quite dramatic and abrupt. Ancient peoples had no notions of "conservation" or environmental responsibility; those are modern concepts, popular romantic notions notwithstanding.

[ASA Vet]

It is the tomb of the FL Stupid Voter

Mass grave?

[DannyTN]

"Huh? FL voted for BOTH Bush's and CA just recalled Davis! Stupid, NOT! "

By no means, I didn't mean to imply that the tribe of Florida Stupid Voters inhabited the entire state. And I'm sorry if you thought I did.

But it's also clear to everyone that the tribe does exist in Florida and even has a heavy concentration in Palm Springs.

And the Tribe raised it's voice in California by trying to get the election delayed because they weren't going to be able to figure out how to punch the ballot cards.

[Bernard Marx]

Extinction of megafauana was caused by overhunting by Paleoindians.

Sorry to be so long in responding. Overhunting by paleoindians is the conventional explanation and it may be correct but I have serious doubts. First, there's Africa where some experts say humans have lived longer than anywhere else and there are still plenty of megafauna around. There are still lots of large mammals in parts of Asia, too, where humans have lived a very long time. Why did such alleged overhunting occur only in places like the Western hemisphere, Australia and partially in Europe (fewer extinct species)?

There is certainly evidence that paleos hunted big mammals like mastadons. Yet when I put myself in their place -- armed with a stone-tipped spear and maybe an atlatl and lots of false bravado -- I ask why in the world I'd preferentially go after something utterly ferocious like a mastadon, mammoth, sabertooth tiger, etc. instead of a critter under 250 pounds, most of which didn't go extinct anywhere.

The disappearance of big mammals in Australia occurred between 40,000-20,000 years ago (dating is imprecise), and there’s evidence humans have been there for as much as 50,000 years. There's absolutely no physical proof the extinct large Aussie animals were hunted by people. Maybe they were but why aren't any spearheads or other human tools associated with animal remains as in Siberia and the U.S.?

Maybe the paleos used wasteful hunting methods like driving megafauna off cliffs and cutbanks. But how do you herd giant ground sloths, monster cats, grouchy giant bears and mega-kangaroos? Even if they did, why did the extinctions occur across the board and involve mammals of only a certain size? Even the Amerinds, who hunted buffalo by driving them off cliffs, didn’t succeed in diminishing their numbers by much. That was left to European colonists armed with rifles who were determined to eliminate the buffalo as a source of Indian food, fur and sinew. They nearly succeeded where untold generations of more primitive hunting methods failed.

I don’t have an answer or even a pet theory yet, but I don’t think hunting by paleoindians is the only answer.

[Renfield]

The large mammals in North and South America either evolved in this hemisphere in the abscence of humans, or migrated over from Eurasia well before humans. They weren't accustomed to humans, and lacked defensive strategies to cope with them. It wouldn't have been to difficult to bring down mastadons with stone-tipped spears; African bushmen do it occasionally with tiny arrows, that have been dipped in poison; they soot up into the animal's soft underbelly, and then track it for several days until it dies. Large megafauna could have been hunted in a similar fashion; spear the animal in the intestines, then track it for several days until it dies of peritonitis. Large bears would probably have been located in their hibernation dens and speared while groggy. The young of dire wolves and large cats would have been located in dens and destroyed (that was what drove the wolf to near-extinction in North America).

The Clovis culture was an advanced paleolithic culture that revolved entirely around hunting. Those people lived to hunt, and by hunting. I have seen no convincing evidence of any other mechanism for the extinctions.

For some good background information, you might try reading a book entitled "The Eternal Frontier: an Ecological History of North America and its Peoples". This book traces the natural history of North America from Cretaceous times to present.

[csvset]

Archaeologists will not photograph the bones..

WTH? Afraid that photographing the bones will steal their mojo?

[ChadGore]

Ancient remains found on peanut farm

[blam]

"I don’t have an answer or even a pet theory yet, but I don’t think hunting by paleoindians is the only answer."

I agree. (2004 bump.)

[Bernard Marx]

Thanks for the bump, blam. The other day as I was driving past the La Brea Tar Pits I got to thinking about this problem again. I'm planning a full day down there soon to wander around the museum and see if I can find an "Aha!" clue in the exhibits.

I finally got around to ordering Baillie's book. I'm about half way through it and am impressed with the research. It's clear that something happened at the times studied and I'm very open to his thesis. Many years ago I took on the problem of the Great Extinctions as a lab project for a historical geology course. There's no question in my mind that we live very uncertainly on this frail planet.

[blam]

"I finally got around to ordering Baillie's book. "

Good book. I'm presently reading Eden In The East, by Stephen Oppenheimer. It's about the human dispersal that occurred when Sundaland went under water at the end of the Ice Age. This is the second book that I've read that 'suspects' that the original Sumerians were immigrants from Asia.

Now, the next book you gotta read is The Tarim Mummies by JP Malloy and Victor Mair...an excellent book. BTW, Malloy is a colliegue of Mike Baillie at Queens College, Belfast.

[blam]

Here's what FReeper JimSEA had to say about The Tarim Mummies.

From JimSEA | 04/24/2004 6:36:09 PM CDT replied:

I am about 2/3 of the way through The Tarim Mummies and it is one of the very best I have read. It is one of those books I will be sad to finish.

[Bernard Marx]

Sounds great. Sadly my situation is: too many interests, too little time. But I'll add your suggestions to my "wish list." Thanks.

[GOPJ]

In a word, YES.

Is Political Correctness the only "science" involved in this matter?

[mtbopfuyn]

unearthed human remains with their backhoe

Kewl, 4800 year old backhoes!

[mtbopfuyn]

Even though it's only bones, we think of it as a life."

Geez, what an ignorant fool.

BTW, peat does tend to preserve remains rather well. I remember years ago seeing and am still impressed with the Peat Bog Man in Denmark.

[Stonewall Jackson]

Are these "experts" related to the "top men" mentioned in Raiders of the Lost Ark?

[blam]

Tollund Man (Note the rope around his neck)

[atomic conspiracy]

We could set off a fratricidal war among PC conformists by inciting CAIR to claim that these are the remains of an early Muslim explorer who died bringing the blessings of Islamic language and culture to the locals.

4800 years is too early for Islam, of course, but these are people who think Bush blew up the WTC and Osama is a Mossad agent, so a claim of a willful misdating conspiracy should present few problems.

[blam]

Did you happen to see this posting about the Florida bog mummies?

European DNA Found In 7-8,000 Year old skeleton in Florida (Windover)

Also, read the article linked, Bye Bye Beringia

[mtbopfuyn]

Tollund Man (Note the rope around his neck)

Yep, that's him! If we all should look half as good.