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Girl Kills Herself After Rape
Chicago Sun-Times ^ | October 16, 2003 | Chicago Sun-Times

Posted on 10/16/2003 6:21:24 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever

An 11-year-old girl apparently hanged herself in her bedroom after being raped by her father earlier in the day in Syracuse, N.Y., police said. Valerie Charlene Lucie was found dead on Sept. 30.


TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: endofcivilization; rape; sick; suicide
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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This is one of the sickest, saddest things I've ever read. God rest her poor soul.

If anyone has a more complete report, please post for discussion.

1 posted on 10/16/2003 6:21:24 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever
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To: Rutles4Ever
Is Kobe's lawyer going to claim she had sex with three other men?
2 posted on 10/16/2003 6:24:35 AM PDT by Callahan
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To: Rutles4Ever
A very sad bump
3 posted on 10/16/2003 6:24:36 AM PDT by 2timothy3.16
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To: Rutles4Ever
I suggest the suicide reason wasn't necessarily or entirely because she had been raped. Quite possible that she realized that the future would only bring more of the same....

Tragic. Prayers being said.

Prairie
4 posted on 10/16/2003 6:25:28 AM PDT by prairiebreeze (Brought to you by The American Democratic Party, also known as Al Qaeda, Western Division.)
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To: Rutles4Ever
I shudder when I think of the father's Judgement Day.
5 posted on 10/16/2003 6:25:47 AM PDT by Semper Paratus
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To: Rutles4Ever
More details here.
6 posted on 10/16/2003 6:28:11 AM PDT by isthisnickcool (Guns!)
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To: prairiebreeze
Can you imagine being so violently betrayed by the one person you should trust as an 11 year-old? The level of despair must have been crushing. I pray she was taken straight to heaven. She's just a child!
7 posted on 10/16/2003 6:29:04 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever
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To: Rutles4Ever
The same thing happened in our neighborhood about 5 years ago, when an 11 year old girl shot herself after ongoing raping by her "father."

There is justice, only in many cases we don't see it, and these "fathers" will endure a torment our words cannot describe.

8 posted on 10/16/2003 6:31:13 AM PDT by joyful1
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To: Callahan
I am so sick of the Kobe situation.

Basically we are seeing OJ part 2.

They throw out the sacrifical lamb in Mackey to slay the victim.

The big guns will be out shortly.

Kobe is now a slave to his lawyers in order to not be convicted.

Lawyers (not all but most) are beyond pond scum. More like the residual after pond scum ....
9 posted on 10/16/2003 6:32:20 AM PDT by alisasny (I SCORED AT A DEANLINK MEETUP)
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To: DallasMike; cajungirl
Given the limited information, I have two questions;

1. Do you think the father is insane?

2. Do you think the death penalty for this scumbag is appropriate?

I would say yes to both, you?
10 posted on 10/16/2003 6:34:36 AM PDT by Fierce Allegiance
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To: Fierce Allegiance
Reading the details gives a different picture. Especially his confession and the lack of evidence of rape.
11 posted on 10/16/2003 6:36:25 AM PDT by Lance Romance
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To: Rutles4Ever
BE CAREFUL with this story! It is leading into the CBS ANTI-HOMESCHOOLING villification propaganda!

"Valerie Lucie and her four younger brothers were home-schooled by their parents."

Homeschool-I: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/13/eveningnews/main577817.shtml


Homeschool-II: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/14/eveningnews/main578007.shtml
12 posted on 10/16/2003 6:39:04 AM PDT by steplock (www.FOCUS.GOHOTSPRINGS.com)
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To: Rutles4Ever
This was posted to a NG .:

"Timothy Lucie, 46, was arraigned Tuesday on charges of rape and sodomy. Lucie told police he raped the girl in the shower after threatening to cut her hair unless she did what she was told, authorities said. “It’s a case that leaves you numb,” Sgt. Tom Connellan said. Lucie recanted after meeting with his lawyer, Raymond Dague, who said Lucie gave the statement only after police told him he failed a lie detector test and threatened to take away his four other children. The girl left no note, and her death has not officially been ruled a suicide. Medical examiners found no evidence of chronic sexual abuse, said District Attorney William Fitzpatrick."

I don't know what to believe at this point.

13 posted on 10/16/2003 6:41:04 AM PDT by kaylar
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To: Callahan
There are several conclusions written in the article that are not supported with known information.

He may be guilty, but he may also be the victim of an over zelious media and police department.

If he's not guilty, he has been forever smeared.

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/news/1016IE23A4N_rape_news.shtml

FROM THE ARTICLE:
No charges have been filed in the girl's death.

Lucie called DeRoo a few days after his daughter's death and said the hanging had been ruled an accident.

Medical examiners could find no evidence of chronic sexual abuse, and the Sept. 30 rape appears to be an isolated incident, District Attorney William Fitzpatrick said.

Connellan and Chief Assistant District Attorney Rick Trunfio declined to comment Wednesday about any possible DNA evidence in the case.

14 posted on 10/16/2003 6:41:58 AM PDT by simhomer
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To: isthisnickcool
Perhaps we should wait a bit before condeming the father, thanks for the link.

Prosecutors said Timothy Lucie confessed to the crime during an interrogation Monday night, but he later recanted that statement after talking with a lawyer.

Medical examiners could find no evidence of chronic sexual abuse, and the Sept. 30 rape appears to be an isolated incident, District Attorney William Fitzpatrick said.

Dague said that Lucie gave the written statement only after police told him he failed a lie detector test and threatened to take away his other four children if he didn’t confess.

Connellan and Chief Assistant District Attorney Rick Trunfio declined to comment Wednesday about any possible DNA evidence in the case.

15 posted on 10/16/2003 6:42:11 AM PDT by 2timothy3.16
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To: Lance Romance
Yes, the mere fact that the cops "claim he confessed" then later recanted could be just trying to strongarm someone into confessing out of fear of having their other kids taken. It could also be pure B.S. to spoon feed a grand jury to get the judge to bind over the case. Cops regularly use innocent statements taken WAY out of context to claim "he confessed" etc.

OTOH, if he did do it then he will get his just reward, every day for the rest of his miserable life.

16 posted on 10/16/2003 6:44:11 AM PDT by Sender
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To: Rutles4Ever
SYRACUSE, N.Y. -- An 11-year-old girl apparently hanged herself in her bedroom after being raped by her father earlier in the day, police said.

Valerie Charlene Lucie was found dead on Sept. 30. Timothy Lucie, 46, was charged Tuesday with rape and sodomy and released Wednesday on $35,000 bond.

Lucie told police he raped the girl in the shower after threatening to cut her hair unless she did what she was told, authorities said.

Lucie recanted after meeting with his lawyer, Raymond Dague, who said Lucie gave the statement only after police told him he failed a lie detector test and threatened to take away his four other children.

The defense attorney said that Lucie is wrongly accused, and that Lucie's wife does not believe the charges.

The girl's death has not officially been ruled a suicide. Lucie came under suspicion after an autopsy revealed physical signs that Valerie had been sexually abused before her death, according to court documents.

Associated Press

17 posted on 10/16/2003 6:44:34 AM PDT by CFW
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To: Callahan
Maybe if she had Mackey as her lawyer....
18 posted on 10/16/2003 6:45:54 AM PDT by smiley
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To: Rutles4Ever
Poor little one.

;-(

Tia

19 posted on 10/16/2003 6:46:25 AM PDT by tiamat ("Just a Bronze-Age Gal, Trapped in a Techno World!")
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To: Rutles4Ever
Biological or stepfather? It's VERY common with stepfathers.

Watcg freepers deny that fact or suggest she raped herself. In the eyes of some no male can a wrong. It's always the females fault.

20 posted on 10/16/2003 6:46:53 AM PDT by nmh
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To: Rutles4Ever
The police the DA and Social Services wouldnt "lie" would they?

The lefties would just love to use something like this to attack the home school movement
They cant stand any the thought of any kids brought up beyond their control and brainwashing...

Hitlerly and her coven just go into salivating spams at the prospect....of one child lost...
-to them-and their god
21 posted on 10/16/2003 6:47:09 AM PDT by joesnuffy (Moderate Islam Is For Dilettantes)
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To: steplock
The link was too slow for me to load so I ask, are hey suggesting that homeschooled kids are routinely raped?
22 posted on 10/16/2003 6:49:16 AM PDT by nmh
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To: simhomer
"No charges have been filed in the girl's death. "

Looks like it's not a big deal and dear dad has nothing to fear, if true. I woudn't worry about dear dad being "smeared" since charges haven't been presented.

23 posted on 10/16/2003 6:50:56 AM PDT by nmh
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To: Fierce Allegiance
Do you think the father is insane?

I cannot stress this enough: do not confuse evil with insanity.

24 posted on 10/16/2003 6:51:14 AM PDT by LTCJ (Killing threads singlehandedly since June 2001)
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To: nmh
It is one FR - but I lost the link but here's what I saved from the story (comment on bottom was from the FREEPER who originally posted it)

A Dark Side To Home Schooling
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/13/eveningnews/main577817.shtml
SMITHFIELD, N.C., Oct. 13, 2003



(CBS) The school bus never stopped at the secluded trailer on Hickory Crossroads in rural North Carolina because for five years Nissa and Kent Warren home schooled their children.

Then, as CBS News Correspondent Vince Gonzales reports, county workers got an anonymous tip: better check on those kids.

"This is one of those cases that will always haunt me," says Tom Lock, the Johnston County district attorney.

For weeks, the parents tried to keep social workers out until the day detectives and Lock were called in.

"I was stunned at the squalor that I saw," says Lock. "There was rotting food, animal feces on the floor. I can't imagine anyone living in a residence like this."

A faded sign on the wall reads: "So this isn't home sweet home: adjust."

In the bedroom, 14-year-old Brandon had committed suicide with a rifle after killing his brother Kyle and sister Marnie. Their mother discovered the bodies.

"She stopped me in the road (and) said my children are dead," says a neighbor.

Nissa Warren told a detective she'd "rather God had them than Child Protective Services."

It turned out the Warrens had home schooled before, in Arizona, where they were convicted of child abuse. An investigator there wrote: "The children are tortured physically and emotionally." That's information North Carolina school officials are not required to collect.

Since it became legal in North Carolina in 1985, the number of home school students has jumped from just a few hundred to more than 50,000. But there's been no change in the number of state employees overseeing the program - just three for the entire state.

"I think there's so little supervision that they really are not protecting those kids," Marcia Herman-Giddens, of the North Carolina Child Advocacy Institute.

Herman-Giddens is on the state task force that reviewed the Warren case. The conclusion: home school laws "allow persons who maltreat children to maintain social isolation in order for the abuse and neglect to remain undetected."

"They deliberately keep them out of the public eye because the children do have injuries that are visible, and they don't want them to be seen," she says.

But Hal Young, an advocate for home school parents, says most parents are loving and doing a very good job. He doesn't see a connection "based on one very tragic unfortunate case."

"I don't see a connection that would say this is where the government needs to step in, this is where the government needs to come to your home, come into your life," says Young.

The Warrens were acquitted of child abuse charges but spent 45 days in jail for failing to secure a firearm. Through their attorney they declined requests for an interview.

"All they ever asked was that they be able to raise their children in the manner in which they felt was appropriate," their attorney Jonathan Breeden said.







remark:


I sent the following to CBS two days ago and have not received a response and don't expect to:

It would be interesting to see you do a segment on public schoolers as well.

This is what I would be interested in seeing:

Public schoolers vs. home/private schoolers who take Ritalin and/or come to school with weapons and/or have killed students/teachers at these schools

Compare the number of public schoolers to home/private schoolers when it comes to substance abuse

Dropped out of school as compared to home/private schoolers

Test scores of public schoolers as compared to home/private schoolers

Compared public schoolers to home/private schoolers who became pregnant, engaged in sexual activity, taken drugs, etc.

Compare public schoolers to home/private schoolers when it comes to parental involvement

Compare public schoolers to home/private schoolers when it comes to two parent households

There are two sides to every story and if you are going to bring out the "dark side" of homeschooling, then public school is fair game as well.


25 posted on 10/16/2003 6:56:07 AM PDT by steplock (www.FOCUS.GOHOTSPRINGS.com)
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To: nmh
Here;s the SECOND installment of the CBS propaganda move:

Home Schooling Nightmares - II

LOS ANGELES, Oct. 14, 2003
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/14/eveningnews/main578007.shtml


(CBS) It is estimated that 850,000 children in this country are home-schooled -- the overwhelming majority by parents who have only the best interests of their children at heart.

But homeschooling is largely unregulated. A CBS News investigation reports how some children have suffered abuse -- and much worse -- while no one was watching.






Neil and Christy Edgar will be sentenced next month in Kansas for abusing and murdering their 9-year-old son. He suffocated after his head was wrapped in duct tape as a punishment for taking food without permission.

It's a shocking case, but as CBS News Correspondent Vince Gonzales reports, not an isolated one. A CBS News investigation found dozens of cases of parents convicted or accused of murder or child abuse who were teaching their children at home, out of the public eye.

"A lot of reports for suspected abuse or neglect are made by the schools when they observe children coming in that may be bruised or not well fed," says Marcia Herman-Giddens, of the North Carolina Child Advocacy Institute.

In Iowa, a father is serving life, and a mother goes on trial later this month, for killing their 10-year-old adopted son and burying him at their house. Because they were home schooling, no one noticed he was missing for more than a year.

There are two notorious Texas cases.

Andrea Yates gained national attention when she drowned her five children in a bathtub. Deanna Laney, told investigators she beat her three sons with rocks, killing two of them. Both mothers taught their children at home.

"The genuine home schoolers are doing a great job with their children, but there is a subgroup of people that are keeping them in isolation, keeping them from public view because the children often do have visible injuries," says Herman-Giddens.

Even a very public home school success story can hide a private dark side. Marjorie Lavery says her father beat her before the National Spelling Bee then threatened to kill her after she came in second. He pleaded guilty to child endangerment after she testified about years of cruelty.

Hal Young and other home school advocates vigorously defend the right to teach their children at home without government intrusion.

"The cases that you've mentioned are very, very rare - extremely rare," says Young.

"There's not a pattern there, there's not a trend," says Young. "It's not something you can point your finger at and say there's this vast undercurrent, because there's not."

But it's hard to know how widespread abuse might be because the government doesn't keep track. It doesn't even know how many children are taught at home in this country.

In eight states, parents don't have to tell anyone they're home schooling. Unlike teachers, in 38 states and the District of Columbia, parents need virtually no qualifications to home school. Not one state requires criminal background checks to see if parents have abuse convictions.

The Edgars now face life in prison. The dilemma raised by their case and others: how to protect parents' rights to raise their children and still protect children from parents who abuse them.






It is estimated that 850,000 children in this country are home-schooled

That number is way old. The most recent stats show between 1.5 and 2 million.

But homeschooling is largely unregulated. A CBS News investigation reports how some children have suffered abuse -- and much worse -- while no one was watching

Disturbing! Now parents are supposed to be 'watched' by the State. Who's children are these, anyway?

A lot of reports for suspected abuse or neglect are made by the schools when they observe children coming in that may be bruised or not well fed," says Marcia Herman-Giddens, of the North Carolina Child Advocacy Institute.

I see. So now the purpose of school is to monitor parents. I thought it was to teach.

"The genuine home schoolers are doing a great job with their children, but there is a subgroup of people that are keeping them in isolation, keeping them from public view because the children often do have visible injuries," says Herman-Giddens.

Subgroup!! That makes it sounds like 20% or something. We are talking a handful of abberant cases out of 2 million.

Unlike teachers, in 38 states and the District of Columbia, parents need virtually no qualifications to home school.

Just what we need. Parents now need to 'qualify' to raise their children.


26 posted on 10/16/2003 6:57:04 AM PDT by steplock (www.FOCUS.GOHOTSPRINGS.com)
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To: Rutles4Ever
I hope this girl's father burns in hell soon.
27 posted on 10/16/2003 7:02:53 AM PDT by Centurion2000 (Virtue untested is innocence)
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To: Rutles4Ever
I read the story that is provided in a link in post #6. One thing that stuck out was the paragraph that talks about how the family homeschooled. It is totally out of place within the flow of the story. Also, the fact that they homeschooled has nothing to do with the story. I can't help conclude that it is included in order to discredit and demonize homeschooling. The implication is that homeschooling parents are dangerous. Keep in mind that the left, including the NEA, has long seen homeschooling as a threat to their agenda.
28 posted on 10/16/2003 7:08:44 AM PDT by Pete
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To: Fierce Allegiance
Given the limited information, I have two questions; 1. Do you think the father is insane?

Whe someone fully internalizes moral rules, those violating the rules seem to commit such a transgression that they must be... insane. His father is not insane. There is nothing in nature that prohibits cohabitation within the family. That prohibition is a Mosaic law. Her father is a completely immoral scumbag, and his act has nothing to do with insanity.

2. Do you think the death penalty for this scumbag is appropriate? Yes, but I would keep him first in prison for a while, is a cell with a love-sick guy named Charlie.

Afterwards, I would hang him on a public square.

29 posted on 10/16/2003 7:09:28 AM PDT by TopQuark
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To: Rutles4Ever
Release the father on his own recognisence .... we'll be waiting.
30 posted on 10/16/2003 7:13:21 AM PDT by Walkingfeather
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To: Callahan
NO, Kobe's lawyer is going to claim that based on the fact that Kobe's victim did not hang herself, it was not rape.
31 posted on 10/16/2003 7:16:22 AM PDT by LandofLincoln
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To: Semper Paratus
I don't! I know my maker is going to have his way with him
32 posted on 10/16/2003 7:18:35 AM PDT by LandofLincoln
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To: alisasny
So you know that Kobe is guilty?
33 posted on 10/16/2003 7:19:56 AM PDT by Protagoras (Hating Democrats doesn't make you a conservative.)
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To: Protagoras
Of course! He's black and she's white, so her word is clearly more reliable than his.

/sarcasm

34 posted on 10/16/2003 7:27:49 AM PDT by Nathaniel Fischer (Herman Cain for Senate!)
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To: Pete
I read the story that is provided in a link in post #6. One thing that stuck out was the paragraph that talks about how the family homeschooled. It is totally out of place within the flow of the story. Also, the fact that they homeschooled has nothing to do with the story. I can't help conclude that it is included in order to discredit and demonize homeschooling. The implication is that homeschooling parents are dangerous. Keep in mind that the left, including the NEA, has long seen homeschooling as a threat to their agenda.

I don't think that's it (in this specific instance, anyway). There are all sorts of reasons that people home-school, and one of them is that the parents are paranoid of the big, wide world.

Now, hold on.... I know a lot of homeschoolers and this is NOT typical -- it's probably rare. But it does happen. For example, if you look at somebody like Andrea Yates, her decision to homeschool seems consistent with what she later did, because it reflected her psychological state.

IF this guy raped his daughter (and I think there'd be physical evidence to back that up), I would also wonder whether he was also one of those guys who dominates his wife and family -- and the decision to homeschool would reflect his psychological state.

35 posted on 10/16/2003 7:29:36 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: Rutles4Ever
The question here is what is the rate for suicide by hanging among 11 year old girls? I doubt it's very high. That alone would raise police suspicions about what Dad had been doing. They also would look at any other family members, neighbors, etc., who had access to the poor girl. I don't know whether this "suicide" story came from the Dad only but it sounds real strange.
36 posted on 10/16/2003 7:31:18 AM PDT by Sabatier
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To: Protagoras
No I do not know that Kobe is guilty.

I do not that OJ is guilty even though a jury of his PEERS (cough) did not convict him.

If there was nothing to these allegations this would have been dropped a long time ago. The actions of Kobe admitting to sex and the Mackey crap this week, looking more and more damning even if a jury of his PEERS (cough) does not convict him.

37 posted on 10/16/2003 8:08:12 AM PDT by alisasny (I SCORED AT A DEANLINK MEETUP)
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To: alisasny
News flash. OJ did it.

If there was nothing to these allegations this would have been dropped a long time ago.

Goofy statement of the day award. It means no innocent people have been charged much less convicted.

The actions of Kobe admitting to sex and the Mackey crap this week, looking more and more damning even if a jury of his PEERS (cough) does not convict him.

Sex isn't illegal. Rape is. If he raped her he is guilty no matter what the jury decides. If he is innocent of rape he will be innocent no matter what a jury says.

If these reports about testimony and evidence are true, he will be aquitted. That's what trials are for, that's what "reasonable doubt" is about.

38 posted on 10/16/2003 8:16:25 AM PDT by Protagoras (Hating Democrats doesn't make you a conservative.)
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To: Protagoras
I see the battles on FR over Kobe are going to be huge.

Frankly with the election coming up I will limit my comments on this case.

: )
39 posted on 10/16/2003 8:33:20 AM PDT by alisasny (I SCORED AT A DEANLINK MEETUP)
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To: alisasny
I see the battles on FR over Kobe are going to be huge.

Perhaps, but the ideas behind the stories are the real point.

The election is more than a year away. And no matter who is elected, nothing fundamental will change. No candidiate from either party will introduce anything new or constructive to address the real problems of the people. Government will be larger and more powerful, people's rights will continue to erode. Business as usual.

40 posted on 10/16/2003 8:41:32 AM PDT by Protagoras (Hating Democrats doesn't make you a conservative.)
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To: Callahan
In Kobe's case, it appears that she did.

There's no way now that Kobe will be convicted.
41 posted on 10/16/2003 8:59:08 AM PDT by xzins
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To: nmh
I woudn't worry about dear dad being "smeared" since charges haven't been presented.

No charges were filed in her death...he was charged with rape and sodomy....

42 posted on 10/16/2003 9:00:37 AM PDT by Krodg (We have the ability because the leader in command knows who's in control....God Bless America.)
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To: Fierce Allegiance
"1. Do you think the father is insane?

2. Do you think the death penalty for this scumbag is appropriate?
"

1. No.

2. No.

Like many others, I oppose the death penalty.
43 posted on 10/16/2003 9:10:14 AM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: Rutles4Ever
Come quickly, Lord Jesus.
44 posted on 10/16/2003 9:11:34 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: kaylar
Imus was discussing this on his program this morning. According to the original confession, the father said he told the girl to go into the bathroom so he could cut her hair, because as he said, he knew "it would scare her". She protested saying she didn't want to get her hair cut so he grabbed her by the arm, leaving bruises and forced her into the bathroom, locked the door and then raped her.

Why would he confess to something like this if he was in fact innocent?

45 posted on 10/16/2003 9:17:56 AM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts (Any political party that includes the word 'democratic' in its name, isn't.)
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To: Rutles4Ever
So this is it. Homeschooling pokes the Liberals in the eyes. Now we'll have a smear campaign. Don't expect to hear about the percenatge of parental abuse among homeschooled and public schooled children. Expect the same old trick - a crime is "vicious" and "hateful" when commited by a white. Never mind any violent crime statistics. Eventualy the children will be taken away from their parents at the end of breast-feeding and after that fully "educated" and indoctrinated by the state. Parents are dangerous animals after all - they may even tell their chidren the TRUTH!. Imagine that.
46 posted on 10/16/2003 9:42:01 AM PDT by singsong
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To: Rutles4Ever
Even this tragic case doesn't make me change my mind about GHC

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1001097/posts?page=44
47 posted on 10/16/2003 9:43:40 AM PDT by Truth666
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
A number of yrs back we had a girl in the area raped. The newspaper printed her name. She was a minor. Well the next day she killed herself. It is important to keep the names of rape victims out of the media for this reason.
48 posted on 10/16/2003 9:44:50 AM PDT by daddyOwe
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To: isthisnickcool
I can't imagine the horror of this. God bless this poor child--and yes, her father too--to make him face the depth of his sin.
49 posted on 10/16/2003 9:46:12 AM PDT by ArcLight
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To: steplock
It's politically correct to have all the problems you want with your kids as long as you don't homeschool them. When your kids are murderers and pregnant and suicidal, you are just part of one big public school using family. If you are not part of that family, which I'm not, then whatever you do is suspect and any failures you make are cause for celebration.
50 posted on 10/16/2003 9:53:57 AM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrisssssssstian)
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