Senators join forces to roll back parts of Patriot Act.

THE WASHINGTON TIMES ^ | 16 Oct 03 | By Audrey Hudson

[freeeee]

"(Representative Ron) Paul (R)confirms rumors circulating in Washington that this sweeping new law, with serious implications for each and every American, was not made available to members of Congress for review before the vote. "It's my understanding the bill wasn't printed before the vote - at least I couldn't get it. They played all kinds of games, kept the House in session all night, and it was a very complicated bill. Maybe a handful of staffers actually read it, but the bill definitely was not available to members before the vote."

"And why would that be? "This is a very bad bill," explains Paul, "and I think the people who voted for it knew it and that's why they said, 'Well, we know it's bad, but we need it under these conditions.'" Meanwhile, efforts to obtain copies of the new law were stonewalled even by the committee that wrote it."

Source

I'm not letting this shameful act go down the memory hole.

[mrsmith]

"I'm not letting this shameful act go down the memory hole. "

It is shameful of Ron Paul to lie to you.

I commend your concern about his dishonesty, especially over such a serious matter of security and liberty!

Did you write him to complain about his lying?

Hold his feet to the fire! Remember our Republic depends on informed citizens- not sheep led by lying politicians.

[JohnnyZ]

It would be a different story if the current administration at least pretended as if it has any interest at all in following the constitution. As far as I'm concerned, they can all go to hell. Flame away.

Flame away. Like an invitation to terrorists to attack America with impunity. Maybe I should have said, "Go to France", not Syria.

[.cnI redruM]

Wasting their time on typical political pandering to voter groups was a great failure on their part and is what the House of Reps often does. It's good that we have a US Senate to put the kibosh on that from time to time. The Patriot Act, and its subsequent revisions, may ironically turn out to be an example of our legislature working just like James Madison planned it to.

[freeeee]

There were copies of the final bill. Opposing Congressmen say so in the Congressional Record.

I'm very interested in seeing this. Could you provide a source?

[Viva Le Dissention]

Yes, well, I'm one of those tired and old-fashioned folks that think the government should actually have to follow rules when attempting to investigate and prosecute criminals.

If terrorists attack the United States, I fully agree that they should be fairly prosecuted within the bounds of the constitution. This includes the right to an attorney, the right to a jury, the right to secure witnesses on your behalf, the right to challenge evidence, discovery rights, etc., etc.

Maybe not moving to France, but I understand Russia is becoming increasing progressive with its captialist-friendly and libertarian leaning government. Now just to learn the Cyrillic alphabet.

[JohnnyZ]

Essentially Jihadists are doing the government's lobbying, putting momentum behind legislation that would never ordinarily pass, funny that.

So if a Chinese army invaded America (let's say), and the US Military had a reasonable belief that the Chinese had a missile battery parked in your back yard, you think it would be an invasion of your civil liberties if they destroyed said missile battery without obtaining a warrant or waiting until after the missiles were launched?

[mrsmith]

Congressional Record
(House of Representatives - October 23, 2001)
[Page: H7206]

Mr. CONYERS. "...we are now debating at this hour of night, with only two copies of the bill that we are being asked to vote on available to Members on this side of the aisle. I am hoping on the other side of the aisle they at least have two copies. "

Two copies ( and a 1,000 copy machines in the House LOL!).
Please let me know how Ron Paul responds to your telling him that it is wrong for politicians to lie to you, that you are not some sheep to be led around by the nose that way.

I'm always fascinated by how politicians respond to finding out that some of us take our duties as a citizen of a Republic seriously.

[JohnnyZ]

Yes, well, I'm one of those tired and old-fashioned folks that think the government should actually have to follow rules when attempting to investigate and prosecute criminals.

Criminals? It's called "War". Not robbing a bank. War. Members of al-Qaida are enemy combatants. Not criminals.

[Viva Le Dissention]

Heh. Well, given the US track record of finding weapons in Iraq, I'm rather sure I'd not like them blowing up American soil based on its "intelligence."

[freeeee]

"...the Patriot Act extended the government's powers well beyond the terrorism arena. The creatively named law - USA Patriot stands for "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism" - also handed FBI agents and prosecutors a broad new arsenal for going after garden-variety criminals."

"Already, they have used "sneak-and-peek" warrants, wiretaps, Internet surveillance and other Patriot tools in pursuit of thieves, computer hackers, drug dealers and money launderers. And they're exploring how the law can be used in other realms."

"That's as it should be, a key author of the Patriot Act says. A lot of these tools can be used in ordinary crimes," former Assistant Attorney General Viet Dinh acknowledged during a recent debate over the Patriot Act on CNNfn. "But heck, if we happen to catch a murderer, excuse me for not apologizing." Source

The article failed to mention that Justice Department is holding seminars to teach DA's how to apply PATRIOT Act to cases other than terrorism.

"Protect us from terrorists", my arse. They're trying to use terrrorism as an excuse to revoke the Bill of Rights, and they aren't even attempting to make it appear otherwise.

[huck von finn]

The American Library Association is dominated by communist interests?!

[Viva Le Dissention]

It's not a war. They are criminals, plain and simple.

McVeigh blew up a building. He was a criminal. These people blow up buildings, they are also criminals.

[mrsmith]

"the bill definitely was not available to members before the vote." "

Sheesh, after two years the debate over the Patriot Act is still diverted by this @#@$!!!!!!

Look at this- we've wasted half the thread over this stupid lie.

I generally like Ron Paul, but this one stupid lie has really hurt the debate- and I hold him responsible for that.

[Chancellor Palpatine]

What civil liberties are being violated?

The ability of foreign and domestic terrorists to operate computers and telephones with impunity and without any fear of monitoring has been curtailed. That would include the whackjobs of the far right, the whackjobs of the far left, the whackjobs of the islamofascist world and the whackjob nationalists. The enablers of the whackjobs who would use the American communications network to do us harm are people like these senators and their sycophantic talking head friends.

[freeeee]

So if a Chinese army invaded America (let's say), and the US Military had a reasonable belief that the Chinese had a missile battery parked in your back yard, you think it would be an invasion of your civil liberties if they destroyed said missile battery without obtaining a warrant or waiting until after the missiles were launched?

1. If the PRC has succeeded in setting up shop in my back yard, that means I'm already dead, as they would need to kill me first.

2. You don't need a warrant to go after what can be plainly seen from the street. Seeing it alone is probable cause.

3. In the event of a Chinese invasion of the US, an official declaration of war would be made by Congress, and once the Chinese were defeated all war powers would officially end. This is quite the opposite as the case we have today, where Congress has made no declaration of war, there will never be an end to the WoT, and these constitutional violations will be the "new normal".

[eface]

bump!!!

[Chancellor Palpatine]

And you believe the [snicker] eminent Constimatooshinalist Dr. Paul?

[William McKinley]

Strange, but true.

That's just a sample, but yes, the ALA is dominated by commies.