Honda Kiwami - Hydrogen Fuel Cell Next Gen Sedan

H2 Cars ^ | October 15, 2003 | Poul Erik Bak

[carbon14]

Honda KIWAMI Fuel Cell Vehicle – “Best of the Best” By Poul Erik Bak Oct 15, 2003, 15:04

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Honda's global slogan 'The Power of Dreams' will appear on stage at the forthcoming Motor Show in Tokyo.

The Honda theme chosen for the passenger car display at this Tokyo Motor Show, 'Free Thinking; Liberating Technology', aims at introducing the bright and exciting world of people and cars that Honda aims to create.

KIWAMI means “Best of the Best” in Japanese

In addition to production concept vehicles, the Honda display will showcase the company's environmental and safety technologies including the Honda FCX in operation in Tokyo and California.

Honda will also present its ideas for the future with KIWAMI, which means “Best of the Best” in Japanese. KIWAMI intends to match Honda's clean-running fuel cell technology with the Japanese aesthetic of beauty in a premium next-generation sedan.

[carbon14]

Looks very nice for commuter car and Honda is one company that consistently delivers high quality competitively-priced vehicles. Exterior is similar to GM's Autonomy but does not use drive-by-wire (Hywire) system.

	Automobiles: General Motors > AUTOnomy
Availability:	2012
Pricing:	Depends on configuration
Territory:	To be announced
Description:	Hydrogen fuel cell powered concept vehicle based on an all new 'skateboard' type chassis.
Dimensions:	TBA
Weight:	TBA. Considerably lighter than an internal combustion engine based automobile
Specification:	More than 100 Miles per 'gallon' Skateboard' type chassis and modular construction allows for multiple configurations Adjustable X-Drive™ sliding steering guide allows for left, center or right side driving positions 42 volt electrical system

[RightWhale]

Won't sell. There's no hood hanging out front; can't tell if it's coming or going; it would disappear right under half the pickup trucks on the street.

[narby]

Doesn't Honda know that Fuel Cells aren't PC anymore? I mean, Geo. Bush proposed an initiative to build zero emision hydrogen powered cars, and Geo. Bush is an enemey of the environment, so hydrogen is BAD!

[Orangedog]

Hydrogen fuel cell powered concept vehicle based on an all new 'skateboard' type chassis.

And if you get into a wreck with anything bigger than a roller skate, you're going to come out losing that fight ;)

[truth_seeker]

"Won't sell."

Would it sell, if it had the Honda "Element" body?

That vehicle is selling pretty well, out here in leading edge California (regarding vehicle design) .

[RightWhale]

There are some small cars in Alaska, but mostly it's trucks and SUVs.

[isthisnickcool]

hydrogen fuel cell

I've seen pictures of vehicles that run on hydrogen. Here is one:

[carbon14]

And if you get into a wreck with anything bigger than a roller skate, you're going to come out losing that fight ;)

It will also knock out any Segway fanatics I bet and instead of Segway commuter lanes, by demand there will be fuel cell vehicle (FCV) lanes.

Not only that, but in a electrical blackout, your FCV will provide emergency power to your home for a couple of days. So it is like having a mobile generator for powering the technologies of the 21st century.

[bluelowrider57]

Well lets do the pros and cons.

Pros

1.Less dependance on the Saudis

Cons

1. Steering wheel backwards 2. Looks like it would break if turned on 3. Doesn't look crash-safe

[bluelowrider57]

My point exactly. I drive next year and I'm wetting my pants over all these crappy designs.

[July 4th]

Evidently the "power of dreams" extended a little too far into exterior design.

[Flavius]

priceless

[Rad_J]

The top two pictures look great. I like to sleep when I drive. And having the seats lay back like that will definitely help me sleep. Shorter Japanese people may be able to sit up straight in that thing, but I won't.

[carbon14]

hydrogen fuel cell

When these cars start rolling out in a decade they will probably be using fuels like liquid methanol as a hydrogen carrier.

Regarding cause of Hindenberg fire:

Hydrogen Didn’t Cause Hindenburg Fire, UCLA Engineer, Former NASA Researcher Find

It was not hydrogen that caused the disastrous fire aboard the famous Hindenburg zeppelin, according to a UCLA School of Engineering and Applied Science Professor and a former NASA researcher.

Contrary to popular belief — and the findings of two official investigations — the material used to coat the "skin" of the airship, not hydrogen, was the cause of the disaster, said William D. Van Vorst, professor emeritus of chemical engineering at UCLA and Addison Bain, former manager, Hydrogen Programs Kennedy Space Center, NASA.

[q_an_a]

as a honda and toyota owner, who has a ford too, I can tell you that the japanese know that americans are tall try to get dodge or chevy to figure that out.

[stboz]

Will someone please explain how the hydrogen will be produced, stored and distributed economically? (Er...uh...and safely?) What will be the cost of the energy equivalent to a gallon of unleaded gasoline?

Morons! I've got morons on my team!

[SC DOC]

Can't wait to get one. The closest refueling station to South Carolina is in Phoenix (1712 miles away)

[Phsstpok]

I've seen pictures of vehicles that run on hydrogen. Here is one:

Actually, it wasn't the hydrogen blowing up that you see in this picture. Hydrogen burns with an almost invisible flame. The fireball you see, and the likely cause of the accident, is that the skin of the Hindenburg was painted with a stiffening/weatherproofing compound made of, among other things, aluminum perchlorate.

Aluminum perchlorate is the same substance that is used as ROCKET FUEL in the solid rocket motors of the space shuttle. And they wonder why it blew up.  Duh!

Set up a balloon filled with hydrogen and a balloon filled with gasoline and put a lit fire cracker cracker attached to each. I'll hold the hydrogen filled balloon and you hold the gasoline filled one and we'll see who comes out better.

[Phsstpok]

Hydrogen Didn’t Cause Hindenburg Fire

you're right, but you didn't name the compound. See my post #18

[BMiles2112]

Don't ask such silly questions. New technology is always better, nevermind the negatives.

[hoot2]

what a load of b.s.
that better be an "ejection seat"...
park n american butt in there....n its gonna be wedged real good...

[MediaMole]

It's a concept car aimed at the Japanese domestic market. Micro cars are hot over there.

Give 'em a decade or so and there may be a fuel cell powered pickup with your name on it.

If fuel cells become practical, powerful and cost effective, they will sell. If they don't work, they'll go the way of the EV1.

[RightWhale]

I will have to turn in my lease Toyota in about a year. A fuelcell pickup is something I will ask about. They do cold-weather testing here also. Cold = 40 below

[LibertarianInExile]

Aw, c'mon. You know yer not supposed to ask questions. But I'll try and answer them for you:

Q: How will the hydrogen be produced economically?
A: Why, by the same companies that currently provide you with chemicals, home electricity and/or refined oil! We can't have you simps running on hybridized electric/gas cars--that would be too likely to eventually lead to the end of our way of life! That is, if you're referring to our way of life as the way of life us bigwig energy execs lead.

Q: How will the hydrogen be stored and distributed economically?
A: Duh. We'll have a much more centralized system, which the government will subsidize and probably even administer. Since hydrogen will be MUCH more safely handled if we don't have LH trucks tooling around with it, we'll put in pipelines we can further regulate and tax without your knowledge, so that the price you pay at the pump is initially lower but we can control its dispersement and obviously, limit its use as we see fit.

Q: How will the hydrogen be stored and distributed safely?
A: Didn't I just tell you? The GOVERNMENT will handle all that! I don't know about you, but I feel safer already!

Q: What will be the cost of the energy equivalent to a gallon of unleaded gasoline?
A: Well, if you take the amount of energy that a single car uses...add in the amount it takes to ship gas from point A to point B...multiply by the OPEC cartel's ever-skyrocketing gas prices...subtract the square inch area of the woodchuck's teeth...carry the two...and...our answer is obvious! It'll be MUCH better. It's not GAS, which is EVIL EVIL EVIL! Hate those darn Arabs, so we can make the world a safer place for those of us running the energy infrastructure, er, for you consumer types!

Hope that answers your questions! Tune in next time to see LibertarianInExile answer the question: Why is the federal government's antitrust exemption for baseball so frequently debated and derided, but the IATA, a monopolistic cartel that affects MANY more Americans, is almost never discussed even in the face of the huge 'containment effect' it has on the spread of capitalism internationally?

[TBall]

Yours picture is a dumb argument that I often see posted on the hydrogen threads. Don't you know that technologies have already been developed to safely store hydrogen?

[TBall]

"How will the hydrogen be stored and distributed safely?" Go to Yahoo finance and pull up symbol MCEL. Read about their technology to safely store hydrogen in a chemical form.

[TBall]

Economic feasibility will happen in the US within the next 15 years according to Bush's plan. Watch as the rate of innovation for hydrogen technologies accelerates substantially. Just a few more years and the plans will be drawn up build an infrastructure to support the hydrogen economy.

[Nowhere Man]

Whether they are fuel celled vehicles, hybrids, or rubber bands, why must manufacturers push these "mo-fugly" vehicles on us. I mean lets make the cool looking at least, for example, why don't they make 'em look like a 1965 Ford Galaxie, a 1968 Buick Wildcat, or even a 1984 Buick Regal Grand National. I'm a big science fiction fan, but I think these designers need to concentrate less on sci-fi and more on nostalgia, I bet these cars would sell if they are made to look like classic cars. Maybe I'm way out there but if you make a good performing hybrid that looks like a 1965 Ford Galaxie, I would be convinced to buy one if I was in a position to do so.

[isthisnickcool]

Yours picture is a dumb argument that I often see posted on the hydrogen threads. Don't you know that technologies have already been developed to safely store hydrogen?

Ya think I was really comparing the Hindenberg to the current generation hydrogen fuel cells? Yea, I was. Made for a more robust discussion eh? Do I know about the technologies? Uh huh.

Ah, to see the US develop a system that does away with ME oil. That's what I'd like to see. It would be nice to make the vehicles look and drive like a Viper or my Porsche.

We should have a Manhattan type project in this county to develop vehicles that solve our oil importing problem. Until we do develop such technology that makes us energy independent my picture up there showing the Hindenberg doing it's last parking job may better represent the state this country might find itself in someday than anything else.

[stboz]

You did not answer the questions. You shall be summarily tried and executed.

Next idiot.

[CPOSharky]

...a good performing hybrid that looks like a 1965 Ford Galaxie, I would be convinced to buy one...

Me too! Two door hardtop, dark bule with white vinyl roof.

[The Great RJ]

Cute car--I wonder how well it will work at -30 degrees with a windchill of -75 degrees? How about handling charteristics in say 7"+ of snow? How many kids with soccer gear, band instruments and backpacks will it hold? How many bags of groceries, sacks of water softener salt, bags of lawn fertilizer, pieces of camping gear etc. will fit in the trunk?

I don't think I'm quite ready to give up my SUV for one of these quite yet.

[boris]

Will someone please explain how the hydrogen will be produced, stored and distributed economically? (Er...uh...and safely?) What will be the cost of the energy equivalent to a gallon of unleaded gasoline?"

My latest (admittedly somewhat old) cost for liquid hydrogen is ~$1.75 per pound or ~$1.04 per gallon. In tank-car bulk.

Hydrogen liberates 3.5 times as much energy per pound than gasoline but it is 11 times less dense than gasoline, so it gives only 3.5/11 = only 32% as much energy per gallon. The density of liquid hydrogen (a "deep cryogen" at -421 F) is 4.4 lb/ft3, versus gasoline at ~50 lb/ft3. The tanks to store liquid hydrogen would be enormous, and the stuff requires heroic insulation to keep it from boiling away. As a gas, the situation is even more hopeless since H2 gas--even at 10,000 psi--is much less dense than the liquid. Anyway, a "gasoline-equivalent-gallon" of hydrogen would be $1.04/.32 = ~$3.25 "per gallon". Note that this does not include the cost of establishing a hydrogen infrastructure, which would probably be amortized by adding cost to the fuel.

As you correctly point out, making H2 can only be achieved by electrolysis of water (typically at 70% efficiency) or reforming of natural gas. (Such reforming basically captures the carbon on site and lets the hydrogen "go").

The heat of formation of water is ~-242 kJ/mole. A mole of H2O is 18 grams. You get 2 grams of Hydrogen per mole of H2O. If you want one pound of H2 you need 453.59/2 = 226.8 moles of H2O (4.08 kilograms). This will require 242*226/0.7 = 78,131 kilojoules of energy per pound of H2 liberated (nine pounds of water electrolyzed per pound of H2 liberated). Note that this is an energy in kilojoules per pound, not a power (rate). Suppose you want one pound of hydrogen per second. Then the power required is 78,131 kJ/sec = 78.1 megawatts.

Suppose all gasoline engines in the U.S were converted to hydrogen overnight. The U.S. uses ~8,700,000 barrels per day of gasoline, or 365,400,000 gallons of gas. Per DAY.

This is equivalent to 1,141,875,000 "gallons" of hydrogen or 152,646,484 cubic feet of (liquid) H2. At 4.4 lbm/ft3 this makes 34,692,383 pounds of hydrogen per day. A day has 86,400 seconds, so the rate of hydrogen production would need to be 34,692,383/86,400 = 401.5 pounds per second. This would require 78.1 megawatts times 401.5 = 31,560 megawatts of electrical energy, delivered 24/7. Note that this does not include the energy for liquifying the hydrogen, nor does it include diesel fuel, aviation fuel, etc. This is equivalent to ~32 1,000-megawatt electrical plants (presumably nuclear) operating full-tilt all the time.

I did this in a hurry; might have slipped a digit somewhere.

--Boris

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

Cons

1. Steering wheel backwards 2. Looks like it would break if turned on 3. Doesn't look crash-safe

Another Con, hydrogen cannot be manufactured economically in large quantities without fusion reactors.

[Petronski]

Looks like poop. Kiwami sounds like swahili name.

Also, where do we get all the hydrogen?

[Darnright]

>Skateboard' type chassis and modular construction allows for multiple configurations

Ahem, did you say, SKATEBOARD????

I just spit coffee all over my keyboard.

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

I thought it was ground aluminum powder with nitrate dope. The same nitrate used to make gun cotton, the original smokeless gun powder. The combination was potent. The nitrate was hot enough with excess oxygen to cause the alluminum powder to ignite, which burns very hot, but is very hard to ignite. But the silver pigment could have had alluminum perclorate as well.

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

Despite visions of the Hindenburg burning, hydrogen is not as dangerous as the public believes. An LPG powered vehicle has a much more potent and dangerous fuel. The problem is price. Presently you must convert methanol at about $3 to $4 a gallon. Not as many btu's in a gallon of methanol, and it gets worse when you only use the stripped hydrogen and throw away the carbon. The only way hydrogen can be cost effective is if they set up a bunch of off shore fusion reactors, manufacturing hydrogen from sea water. And we have not yet been able to sustain a controlled fusion reaction.

[Cooter]

Cute car--I wonder how well it will work at -30 degrees with a windchill of -75 degrees? How about handling charteristics in say 7"+ of snow? How many kids with soccer gear, band instruments and backpacks will it hold? How many bags of groceries, sacks of water softener salt, bags of lawn fertilizer, pieces of camping gear etc. will fit in the trunk?

I don't think I'm quite ready to give up my SUV for one of these quite yet.

It's technically feasible to power a large vehicle - in cold weather - with a fuel cell engine, as this bus program demonstrates. The question really is when/if it will become economically feasible.

Buses powered by Ballard® fuel cell engines successfully completed two years of field testing in 2000. During these tests in Chicago, Illinois, USA and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, 6 buses carried more than 200,000 passengers and traveled over 118,000 kilometers (73,000 miles).

Chicago & Vancouver Demonstration Programs

[Weimdog]

Using nuclear energy to produce hydrogen as a fuel is the most environmentally beneficial method. CO2 emissions will not be reduced if the hydrogen that is substituted for gasoline and diesel fuel is produced by an energy source that emits CO2. Nuclear energy is economical, reliable, capable of producing large quantities of electricity on relatively small land area, and, most important, produces no pollutant or greenhouse gas emissions, because it does not burn anything. Electricity represents about 33 percent of America’s total energy use, while the other 67 percent is used for transportation and process heat. It makes sense to apply nuclear energy to the other two-thirds of our energy requirements.

http://www.nei.org/index.asp?catnum=2&catid=265

[aruanan]

Honda Kiwami - Hydrogen Fuel Cell Next Gen Sedan

I'm waiting for the hydrogen-powered car called KerBlooey!

[Vigilanteman]

Didn't anyone tell Honda that fuel cell technology is economically unviable? Detroit has been trying to find alternatives to fossil fuel guzzling vehicles for years with little success. Don't think we will see these priced less than $50,000 retail anytime soon. The towelheads supplying us with our imported oil have nothing to worry about. </ sarcasm>

[Phsstpok]

The article I read was written by a NASA engineer and I know he mentioned aluminum perchlorate, one of the components of the solids on the shuttle. It may be that he had a longer explanation that mentioned the powdered aluminum as the ingredient on the skin of the ship, and he may have mentioned that that was a component of the aluminum perchlorate in solid rocket fuel as a way of explaining why the powdered aluminum was dangerous. It's been awhile. The bottom line was that, effectively, it was the same as painting the skin with rocket fuel (given the proper ignition source).

[XBob]

18 - "Set up a balloon filled with hydrogen and a balloon filled with gasoline and put a lit fire cracker cracker attached to each. I'll hold the hydrogen filled balloon and you hold the gasoline filled one and we'll see who comes out better."

You mean, it wouldn't blow up, like the Challenger and it's hydrogen fuel?

You mean it wouldn't leak hydrogen (the smallest atom, so small nothing can hold it permanently as the atoms (the smallest atoms) migrate between the atoms of any container?

[Phsstpok]

You mean, it wouldn't blow up, like the Challenger and it's hydrogen fuel?

No, but my fictional balloon, and the Challenger, blew up in one, quick "poof." Lot's of initial energy, then it's over quickly. Challenger was largely destroyed by the speed it was traveling at when it suddenly became "non-aerodynamic," much like what happened to Columbia. Gasoline will go boom and then keep on burning for some time. All over you. Ever heard of a "crispy critter?" I drove an ambulance for a living way back when, and a gasoline fueled fire victim was the only time I ever lost my lunch.

You mean it wouldn't leak hydrogen (the smallest atom, so small nothing can hold it permanently as the atoms (the smallest atoms) migrate between the atoms of any container?

Not relevant to the experiment I set up. The balloon is assumed to hold the contents sufficiently for the purposes of the experiment, at least until the fire cracker goes off.

You're suggesting that the container on a hydrogen powered vehicle is inherently unsafe? How about Pinto's and the current controversy with police cruisers? Combustible materials are combustible materials. There are ways to safely build the container. That's engineering.

I would still rather hold the hydrogen filled balloon than the gasoline filled one.

[Phsstpok]

You mean, it wouldn't blow up, like the Challenger and it's hydrogen fuel?

No, but my fictional balloon, and the Challenger, blew up in one, quick "poof." Lot's of initial energy, then it's over quickly. Challenger was largely destroyed by the speed it was traveling at when it suddenly became "non-aerodynamic," much like what happened to Columbia. Gasoline will go boom and then keep on burning for some time. All over you. Ever heard of a "crispy critter?" I drove an ambulance for a living way back when, and a gasoline fueled fire victim was the only time I ever lost my lunch.

You mean it wouldn't leak hydrogen (the smallest atom, so small nothing can hold it permanently as the atoms (the smallest atoms) migrate between the atoms of any container?

Not relevant to the experiment I set up. The balloon is assumed to hold the contents sufficiently for the purposes of the experiment, at least until the fire cracker goes off.

You're suggesting that the container on a hydrogen powered vehicle is inherently unsafe? How about Pinto's and the current controversy with police cruisers? Combustible materials are combustible materials. There are ways to safely build the container. That's engineering.

I would still rather hold the hydrogen filled balloon than the gasoline filled one.

[Mr. Lucky]

Where d'ya put the dogs?

[Poohbah]

Ahem, did you say, SKATEBOARD????

Yeah, it's a new concept.

Basically, the folks at GM asked, "What if we were trying to invent a car NOW, with all of the technology we have now?"

The idea is that all of the running gear, fuel storage, and computers all fit into the chassis, which looks like a really big skateboard. You simply snap the seats and body shell onto the top.

Steering is via a "fly-by-wire" system. No mechanical linkages needed. Your steering wheel can be where you want it. Same with throttle and brakes.

[Poohbah]

Also, where do we get all the hydrogen?

Build nuclear power plants and crack seawater.

[Petronski]

Build nuclear power plants and crack seawater.

Well, of course. And I love the idea. But the greens out there hawking hydrogen are NOT going to play along with 50 or 100 new nuclear generation facilities.

We either need the political earthquake it would take to get nuclear building again, or we need to drop this pie-in-the-sky BS about hydrogen.