Dump Social Security

[Lunatic Fringe]

I'm looking at my last paystub....

So far this year, the government has stolen from me $2,872 in Social Security deductions. They have given this money either to old people who did not have the forward thinking to plan for their own retirement, or to old people who planned retirement and don't need it. I could have used it myself. I could have spent it, or saved it, or used it for my college education. $2,872....

That's a lot of money! That's more than I have been able to contribute to my 401K this year. Social Security averages a return of -0.66% per year for participants. NEGATIVE return! My 401K has made 29.2% in 10 months. Yet, the government insists it can plan my retirement better than I can. Why should I trust the government to provide for my retirement? If that money were put into my 401K fund instead of bankrolling a broken social program, I would not have to worry about retiring... in fact, I could retire earlier! The great lie of Social Security is that it will supplement your retirement income. I can do better.

It is for this very reason that the government will not even consider abolishing Social Security. The government wants you to continue to work well into your late 60s (for us younger people, it will be early to mid 70s) so as to provide a base of income for other government programs... in other words, they need your taxes.

The federal government has become more paternalistic over the last century. They are convinced they know what is best for you. From education, to taxes, to retirement funds and morality laws, the government has adopted the dubious slogan, "We're the Federal Government, and we're here to help." They insist on applying one solution to every American. Social Security is a system that is destined for failure. So let's dump it.

For the first 20 years, it will be difficult. Laws would be required to give people the freedom to opt out of Social Security, but I imagine that in order to do so, individuals would be required to divert those normal Social Security deductions into a retirement fund. The American people will have to bite the bullet and fund a bankrupt program until current recipients die off.

People will be screwed, because a generation is going to have to go without Social Security after years of paying into it. It's inevitable- the money is already spent. So let it be the baby boomers, the generation that decided to spend the money to begin with. Gen X will not be able to afford it no matter what, so why not make the WWII generation the last generation of Social Security recipients? Government mandated retirement funds go against the very principles of capitalism and liberty. If I am 65 years old and have no money for retirement, that's my fault.

Opponents of Social Security reform will cry about the old people starving to death.

Tough... Families should take care of their elderly relatives if times are bad. We're are a much more industrialized and educated nation than we were in the 1930s, when Social Security was invented by the Great Socialist, FDR. Some people do not wish to retire. Many Americans are happy to work until the day they die, especially if they do what they love. We are capable of working for a lifetime, and funding our own retirement if we choose that as a life goal.

But the only way this will ever happen is if the younger generation demands it... old people vote in massive numbers to protect their Social Security. Young people will need to vote in massive numbers to abolish it.

[Texas_Jarhead]

I've looked into the possibility of getting out of the SS program but it doesn't seem to be very easy. The only instance for withdrawal I could find was based upon membership in certain religious sects. The SS regs do not specify any group/sect by name but do set out criteria that the group must meet. I sure wish I can find out more on this subject.

[VU4G10]

U.S. Social Security For Mexicans?

Social Security, the so-called "third rail" of American politics, has just become more incendiary. The Bush Administration is proposing a change that is even more controversial than offering younger workers the opportunity to invest a small percentage of their Social Security taxes.
Everybody knows that Social Security is facing a massive shortfall in a few years when the baby-boom generation starts to retire. Higher taxes, reduced benefits, or allowing some measure of privatization are the alternatives that need to be worked out by bipartisan consensus.

The Bush Administration has just thrown a monkey wrench into a harmonious solution. A deal is in the works to add to the bulging Social Security rolls many thousands of Mexicans who are working in the United States, both legally and illegally.

This idea would be very costly to U.S. taxpayers. It's bad politics, it undermines the rule of law, and it invites a new wave of illegals to come across our border in search of taxpayer benefits.

Vicente Fox's success as Mexico's President is threatened by his country's terrible poverty. So he has a very ambitious plan to deal with it: export his poverty to the United States.

Fox encourages poor and desperate Mexicans to risk all kinds of hardships to cross the U.S. border illegally, often paying their life savings to a criminal "coyote," making a deal to transport illegal drugs, or enduring life-threatening thirst in the Arizona desert. Fox even toyed with a plan to give them Survival Kits to ease their pain.

If the illegal aliens manage to elude U.S. border guards and escape death on the highway in crowded vans or trucks driven by inexperienced drivers, many manage to land in various locations far away from Mexico, such as Colorado, Iowa or Georgia. They can then hope to get hired by a U.S. employer willing to close his eyes to how they got so far away from home.

Nevertheless, the illegals are told by Fox and other Mexican officials to "think Mexican" first and send as much as they can scrape out of their pitiful paychecks back to relatives in Mexico. According to a Pew Hispanic Center and Inter-American Development Bank report, Mexicans in the United States will send $13 billion this year to relatives in Mexico.

As soon as George W. Bush was elected president, Vicente Fox started pressuring him to legitimize the status of the some ten million illegal aliens who are in the United States, plus give amnesty to many illegals by reviving a loophole in immigration law called 245(i). Those plans were sailing briskly until 9/11, the day that the American people woke up to the dangers of open borders, and Fox was forced to move to an incrementalist strategy.

Mexican consulates in the United States started issuing an identification card, called matricula consular, to Mexicans illegally living in our country. By definition, this card should prove that the holder is in the United States illegally, but it began to be accepted by police, banks and even driver's license offices in some states as though it were a valid I.D.

New York State and New York City, however, citing security reasons, just announced that they will not recognize the matricula consular as a valid identity card.

The deputy White House press secretary has just confirmed that the Social Security Administration has begun discussions with Mexico about an agreement to allow Mexicans to receive U.S. Social Security benefits. One plan is to allow Mexicans, who were not employed in the U.S. long enough to collect U.S. Social Security benefits, to count the time they worked in Mexico as part of the mandatory 10 years or 40 quarters.

The most expensive plan is to provide benefits to the estimated 5 million Mexicans who are working illegally in the United States after having supplied fake Social Security numbers to their employers. "Our actuaries are working on the numbers," said Social Security spokesman Jim Courtney.

Acquiescing in Vicente Fox's demands would put hundreds of thousands of Mexicans onto the rolls of the U.S. Social Security system just as the first wave of baby boomers starts getting retirement checks. Already there is talk of an addition to the U.S. Embassy in Mexico City to handle 37,000 claims anticipated in the first year.

The Bush Administration claims that these plans would promote "totalization" of U.S. and Mexican retirement systems and develop a positive relationship between the two countries. But offering Social Security benefits to people who knowingly violate U.S. immigration laws would create a powerful new incentive for more illegals to enter the United States.

If foreigners work legally in the United States and pay Social Security taxes, they are entitled to receive the benefits they earned. But U.S. taxpayers should say "no" to Mexico's attempt to shift its social welfare burdens onto the U.S. taxpayers.

[GeronL]

Agreed, privatize it. The government can have oversight into the PensionBanks that spring up afterwards. BANKS that make loans to businesses and such and charge interest, and add interest to peoples pension accounts.

They should have to make the account info available on demand to the customer, even over the internet. They need to make sure to have a good set up so that people know the penalty-if any- for early withdrawal anfd such. Something like, 'early withdrawal means you take the money out before your 40 or somrthing and the penalty should not be more than a few percent.

Government can make sure that scams are kept to a minimum and that an Savings & Loan type collapse (ie fraud) doesn't happen.

[Sloth]

People will be screwed, because a generation is going to have to go without Social Security after years of paying into it.

How about anyone retiring in the next three years gets 100% of the benefit they now expect to receive, then the fraction is pro-rated down over the next forty years (i.e., retire 4 years from now & get 97.5%; five, 95%, etc., down to 39 years, 2.5%).

BTW, this would encourage more retirements in the next few years, creating more job openings.

[GeronL]

People will be screwed, because a generation is going to have to go without Social Security after years of paying into it.

A refund of at least half should be part of the debates.

[Sloth]

I think it's just the Amish, sorry. :(

[Lunatic Fringe]

How about anyone retiring in the next three years gets 100% of the benefit they now expect to receive, then the fraction is pro-rated down over the next forty years (i.e., retire 4 years from now & get 97.5%; five, 95%, etc., down to 39 years, 2.5%).

Not a bad idea....

[GeronL]

I don't think a 40 year program is a good idea, maybe 15-20 years. Tough it out. Allow some kind of refund or even partial refund for those who opt out earlier.

[steplock]

Want to hear another MISUSE of Social Security?

I am receiving social security (100% disabled) AND Medicare for the same reason.

Now for the MIS-USE part. I paid for my own disability insurance, health insurance, etc prior to the circumstances that put me in my current position.

Did you know that insurance companies can FORCE you to apply for social security - well force is a bit harsh - they tell you that if you do not apply for social security, they are going to deduct the amount that social security would pay anyway.

The second MIS-USE of social security and medicare...

I carried my own health insurance ... once I was on social security disablility, I became qualified for medicare. My health insurance then stated they do not provide coverage for individuals that are covered under medicare - they dropped me. Not accepting medicare coverage doesn't help here - in fact - refusing medicare is PENALIZED by higher payments if you use it in the future (10% higher premiums for every year you DON'T use it!)

So, even though I provided for my own retirement and 'unforseen circumstances' like any responsible person would/should do - the govt regs have put ME into the government dole now.

Try being 52 years old and 100% disabled - thanks to the govt, I now have MUCH LESS medical coverage (I can't afford $1500/mo for medicare supplementary for my age)

I do receive some military disability and the V.A. clinic here in Hot Springs is very helpful with medicine costs.

[concerned about politics]

Opponents of Social Security reform will cry about the old people starving to death.

That's because it has replaced welfare. Many Democrats claim some ficticious illness and collect SS checks for the rest of their lives. They also tell their kids to act stupid and misbehave to get even more cash. No wonder the system is going broke.
Then there's the government employees who have their own private accounts rather than the same SS we pee-ons have.
Then, of course, the politicians need it to buy votes from their base through more social programs.

SS will be broke by the time we get there. Why wouldn't it be? It's not used for what it was intended, just like all the other government handouts. It's a total falure.

I'd say our great nation started tward it's financial death the minute the government handed out the first "free" penny.

[anniegetyourgun]

For more on the subject (complete with recommendations), see this thread.

[Sloth]

You may be right about the timing. But at the very least, any lump-sum refund should be the full amount paid in plus interest (with a rate equalling that of inflation).

[Graybeard58]

"I think it's just the Amish, sorry"


...Old Order Amish, Rail Road Workers, certin police agencys and I am sure there are others that are exempt.

[GeronL]

Fixing Medicare is a lot more complicated than fixing social security. For social security you guarantee the workers of today over a certain age and give them a partial refund of what they paid if they opt out.

Wow, Medicare is a mess. When social security is privatized, banks will open special branches quick.... what happens for Medicare.

Obviously we need to fix it and we need to get government out of the theft biz and out of the business of forcing people into worse coverage. It would take years for the market to get it straightened out, I guess we'd have to keep what we got while that happens. We need private companies and non-profits and such to compete. Really compete.

[GeronL]

sum refund should be the full amount paid in plus interest

Then lets do it in 2 years. Of course it would take a while... to get everything ready.

[Sloth]

Of course it would take a while... to get everything ready.

Like lynching all the politicians in BOTH parties, since that's the only way this is gonna happen in the foreseeable future? LOL. :)

[jas3]

You need to join the Amish or Mennonites.

Read this: http://www.irs.gov/irm/page/0,,id%3D21802,00.html#ss11

Only religious groups that were founded before 1950 and which conscientiously object to the tax and which demonstrate that they have historically cared for their old folks can opt-out. In practice the exemption can only apply to the Amish and Mennonites, which means that it would never survive a court challenge if anyone were to spend the time/money bringing one.

There is a quick summary on the topic here:

http://www.amishnews.com/amisharticles/amishss.htm

If you actually join the sect, you can file the paperwork with the IRS from here:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-fill/f4029.pdf

[jas3]

You need to join the Amish or Mennonites.

Read this: http://www.irs.gov/irm/page/0,,id%3D21802,00.html#ss11

Only religious groups that were founded before 1950 and which conscientiously object to the tax and which demonstrate that they have historically cared for their old folks can opt-out. In practice the exemption can only apply to the Amish and Mennonites, which means that it would never survive a court challenge if anyone were to spend the time/money bringing one.

There is a quick summary on the topic here:

http://www.amishnews.com/amisharticles/amishss.htm

If you actually join the sect, you can file the paperwork with the IRS from here:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-fill/f4029.pdf

[GeronL]

People would just freak out if they find out that if Social Security had been created as competing private pension 'banks' that they'd all (most) be retiring as millionaires now.