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Rehab plan focuses on diet
Fairbanks News Miner ^ | October 28, 2003 | DAN RICE

Posted on 10/28/2003 2:25:49 PM PST by Nov3

Rehab plan focuses on diet
By DAN RICE, Staff Writer
Audrey Sunnyboy noticed a troubling trend when she entered the drug and alcohol treatment field in 1990.

"I was watching people and was realizing that most of the Alaska Native people did not recover from alcoholism," she said. "And as I was going along, I would ask, 'Did you ever go to AA?' Then they would say, 'No, because I didn't want to talk.'"

Sunnyboy said the realization that AA's 12-step program does not work for everyone, especially people who are reluctant to talk about themselves, is what led to her interest in providing an alternative form of treatment.

Last month, Sunnyboy, a 57-year-old certified traditional counselor originally from Nenana, opened the Sunny Denyaave Center, an office where she hopes to help alcoholics and drug users quit their habits by repairing their bodies through nutrient replacement and proper diet.

John Hagen/News-Miner CENTER LEADER--Audrey Sunnyboy pauses while working Friday at the Sunny Denyaave Center. Sunnyboy has opened the Sunny Denyaave Center (Denyaave means "medicine from the plants"), an alcohol and drug treatment center that aims to use a Minnesota doctor's diet and nutrient-replacement program as the main catalyst for kicking the habit.

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10/28/2003

Her strategy is based on the work of Joan Matthews Larson, a Minnesota doctor who operates nutrition-based recovery centers and has authored books about her technique.

Sunnyboy spent a year working at Larson's Health Recovery Center in Minnesota in 1999 and has been trying to start her own center in Alaska ever since. The technique is based on the theory that drugs and alcoholism are treatable physical diseases, not moral flaws.

"The way AA looks at it and the way most people look at it is as weak-willed, psychological behavior," Sunnyboy said. "What (Larson) and the other doctors say is that that is not so. An alcoholic or person who is addicted to drugs is not nutritionally sound."

With her rented office in Regency Court Mall, Sunnyboy said she plans to coach clients through a six-week program aimed at repairing the body through introducing a host of vitamins and nutrients and improving the diet.

Curbing drug and alcohol cravings can be as simple as changing what people eat, she said.

The main culprit for promoting alcoholism is sugar, she said.

"Sugar and alcohol cause the same reaction in the body," said Sunnyboy, whose computer desk is stacked with books including a sugar-free cookbook and William Duffy's "Sugar Blues."

Sunnyboy explained that sugar and alcohol consumption both result in the pancreas increasing blood sugar and releasing insulin. Continued sugar consumption, she said, causes the pancreas to become "trigger happy," producing an imbalance that leads to feelings of irritability and cravings for alcohol and drugs.

She said that reducing a person's carbohydrate intake and adding high-protein foods to their diet will stabilize the body. Combined with the introduction of vitamins, everything from magnesium to vitamin B, the goal of the improved diet is to replenish nutrients needed to restore balance in the body and brain.

"That's what this treatment program does is to explain why the body does this," Sunnyboy said. "You control the cravings with nutrition, you learn to eat smaller, protein-packed meals, you learn how to maintain your body."

Sunnyboy, who quit drinking and doing drugs at age 40, said she first became interested in nutrition-based recovery after reading Larson's "Seven Weeks to Sobriety." In the book, Larson wrote that her son committed suicide after a short bout of alcoholism, leading to her search for a better treatment method. She hypothesized that every alcoholic fits into one of four categories based largely on their body's composition--most are hypoglecimic--and that dietary changes can improve someone's condition in almost every case.

"Alcoholism is not a character defect. It is not the sign of a weak will. It is not a bad habit that needs to be broken. It is a devastating physical disease that damages both mind and body," Larson wrote.

Larson's book and other nutrition-based recovery methods are gaining popularity throughout the drug and alcohol treatment field, said Ann Dapice, vice-president of T.K. Wolf, Inc., a Tulsa, Okla.-based recovery and research center that formed as an alternative to traditional methods.

Dapice said the main factor preventing nutrition-based recovery and other programs that treat alcoholism as a physical defect from gaining widespread acceptance is that AA is still considered to be the only treatment option.

"You've got a very old guard of alcoholism and drug treatment people," she said. "They say it's a disease, but they treat it like it's a moral issue. It's very hard to convince old 12-step people to change."

Dapice has a personal reason to be frustrated by what she said is a lack of progressiveness in the alcoholism-treatment field. She said her son survived cancer with treatment only to later die due to symptoms of alcoholism.

Sunnyboy's first test subject was her fiancee, Harry Littlefield.

A disabled Vietnam veteran, Littlefield said he started drinking and doing light drugs almost every day during the 1990s after his deteriorating physical condition ended his ability to work as an electrician.

Littlefield said he gradually built up his body through taking nutrients such as cod liver oil and calcium. Once he added an improved diet, Littlefield said he started feeling better, first physically then mentally.

"After she built me back me up from all the vitamins and everything, I could think a lot better," he said, adding that he quit drinking and drugs about two weeks after starting the program.

Sunnboy said that she put up her own money to rent her new office. She said that after spending a year working with Larson, she made it her personal goal to bring the program north. Sunnyboy acknowledged that she faces plenty of challenges in trying to operate a center based on a technique that is not widely accepted. However, she said many effective practices, such as Dr. Robert Atkins' low-carbohydrate diet, were not popular at first.

"They laughed at him until he passed away," she said.

Reporter Dan Rice can be reached at drice@newsminer.com or 459-7503


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: alcoholism; atkinsdiet; billwilson; lowcarb
This lady while taking side swipes at AA has discovered what Bill Wilson discovered decades ago. He called it the "The Vitamin B-3 Therapy." AA also published a pamphlet for doctors which I believe was called "A Second Communication to Doctors". It was official AA literature but was withdrawn after Bill's death. It involved large doses of niacin (not niacinamide) and low carb eating. It cured his fatigue and depression and helped many other alcoholics. Here she is trying to do something similar and acting like she invented it.

Dr. Atkins also commented on the lifted depression and it has literally cured eating disorders for many (not all) overnight. It is tragic to see a beautiful girl destroy her health and beauty and be basically powerless.

1 posted on 10/28/2003 2:25:49 PM PST by Nov3
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To: Nov3
Interesting.

One thing I have noticed is that when I drink, I crave sugar the next morning, and usually have a Coke, something I normally avoid.

I've also been avoiding sugar recently, there is no doubt whatsoever that my anxiety level is way down. IMO, anyone with an anxiety problem should avoid sugar and starch.
2 posted on 10/28/2003 2:30:17 PM PST by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd animals)
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To: Nov3
I also believe Bill said the only thing he would change about AA was the coffee and donuts.
3 posted on 10/28/2003 2:38:43 PM PST by since1868
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To: Nov3
This is very interesting. The more I read about carbs, the more I'm convinced that the level of refined carbs and sugars of our modern western diet are causing problems for a lot of people. We're taking steps to reduce the refined carbs and sugars in the family diet, and increasing protein and selected fats. Our 10 year old son's migraines have already improved, and for the most part, his moods seem more stable. He never had much of a sweet tooth, and seldom drinks soda. Nevertheless, he's doing better with an increase in proteins, especially at breakfast.
4 posted on 10/28/2003 2:44:53 PM PST by Think free or die
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To: Nov3
Since going "normal-carb" in April (less than 100g a day), I drink a lot less beer. Now I never had a problem with drinking. But I would crave beer. I now wonder if it was my body looking forward to the carbs and alcohol (sugar). I still appreciate a good glass of beer but my cravings for it are gone and one glass satisfies me. I now have maybe six beers a week where before, I would drink 3-4 a day and go through a case a week. Now I can really emphasize quality over quantity. It's easier to rationalize buying a case of premium beer when you know it will take you a month to drink it.

5 posted on 10/28/2003 2:46:58 PM PST by SamAdams76 (202.4 (-97.6) Homestretch to 200)
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To: Nov3
Quackery.

Perhaps I should re-introduce good ol' Snake Oil...

I'll have to give it a phancy doctor-lingo sounding name like: "Herpetoleoic Therapy".

People are pretty gullible.

6 posted on 10/28/2003 2:47:17 PM PST by Cogadh na Sith (The Guns of Brixton)
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To: Sam Cree
One thing I have noticed is that when I drink, I crave sugar the next morning,

Yuppers... Dunkin' Donuts Boston Creme filled.

7 posted on 10/28/2003 2:47:49 PM PST by StatesEnemy
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To: Think free or die
"the more I'm convinced that the level of refined carbs and sugars of our modern western diet are causing problems for a lot of people."

Yeah, I am pretty convinced that alot of anti social behavior in modern society would disappear if we all cooled it with the sweets, sodas and starches.

8 posted on 10/28/2003 2:54:42 PM PST by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd animals)
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To: StatesEnemy
"Boston Creme filled"

Yeah, that's the best flavor. My wife thinks so too.

9 posted on 10/28/2003 2:55:57 PM PST by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd animals)
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To: SamAdams76
It's easier to rationalize buying a case of premium beer when you know it will take you a month to drink it.

The microbrew rage had not hit until after I quit drinking. It bugs me sometimes to see my friends quaffing an obviously fine beer and talking about other fine beers. About the most exotic available in Memphis was Becks Dark and various Lagers. I have never drank Sam Adams!

10 posted on 10/28/2003 3:15:56 PM PST by Nov3
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To: since1868
I also believe Bill said the only thing he would change about AA was the coffee and donuts.

You know I had heard that before but I had forgotten totally about it. I want to get a copy of his second communication to Alcoholics but it is no longer in print and the only ones on the internet I can find go for 30 dollars. Bill was definitely ahead of the curve on many issues. BTW Bill named niacin Vitamin B-3.

11 posted on 10/28/2003 3:20:12 PM PST by Nov3
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To: SamAdams76
I just noticed your tag line had moved again. That is an incredible amount of weight to lose in that period of time. How long has it been now?
12 posted on 10/28/2003 3:21:45 PM PST by Nov3
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To: chookter
Quackery.

Perhaps I should re-introduce good ol' Snake Oil...

I'll have to give it a phancy doctor-lingo sounding name like: "Herpetoleoic Therapy".

People are pretty gullible.

I am sure that seemed a well thought out post after you had washed down your pain pills and prosac with a couple of cold ones

13 posted on 10/28/2003 3:29:39 PM PST by Nov3
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To: Nov3
This is very interesting. I have always thought there was a link between hypoglycemia and alchoholism.
14 posted on 10/28/2003 3:30:02 PM PST by annyokie (One good thing about being wrong is the joy it brings to others.)
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To: SamAdams76
202.4 (-97.6) Homestretch to 200

Way to go Sam!

I'm still happy at 139, down from 163. We've just passed our 4 year anniversary on low-carb.

15 posted on 10/28/2003 3:30:37 PM PST by jennyp (http://lowcarbshopper.bestmessageboard.com)
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To: StatesEnemy
Yuppers... Dunkin' Donuts Boston Creme filled.

Hmmm... we were planning on celebrating 4 years on low-carb at the local steakhouse. But there's this Krispy Kreme only 20 miles away, and we haven't been there since last Christmas...

16 posted on 10/28/2003 3:35:33 PM PST by jennyp (http://lowcarbshopper.bestmessageboard.com)
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To: jennyp
I'm still happy at 139, down from 163. We've just passed our 4 year anniversary on low-carb.

Seven years ago my wife brought home a copy of Protein Power and announced that we were going on this diet. I said "WE" were not going on any diet but she said read the book. I did and realised that was how I ate when I was single and not out at dinner. We went on it and have been on it ever since except for 2 pregnancies with my wife Katie_Colic. It is common sense. Thank God for Atkins and his ability to persist even when he was demonized.

17 posted on 10/28/2003 3:36:42 PM PST by Nov3
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To: jennyp
Oh my wife hangs out at lowcarbfreinds and lowcarbluxury.
18 posted on 10/28/2003 3:38:06 PM PST by Nov3
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To: Think free or die
The Atkins diet was based on the high fat and protein diets of Alaskan natives, such as Inuits.
19 posted on 10/28/2003 3:42:34 PM PST by kaktuskid
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To: Nov3
FROM QUACKERY.COM

LARSON IS A GRADUATE OF DONSBACH MAIL-ORDER "UNIVERSITY"

Notes on Kurt Donsbach In 1979, Donsbach began operating Donsbach University, a nonaccredited correspondence school that awarded bachelor, master, and doctoral "degrees" in nutrition.

The fact that his "university" was not accredited did not deter Donsbach from stating that it was-by the National Accreditation Association (N.A.A.) of Riverdale, Maryland. An investigation by the National Council Against Health Fraud revealed that this "agency" was formed in 1980 by a California chiropractor and had "accredited" Donsbach University a few months later. In 1981,

Dr. William Jarvis, President of the National Council Against Health Fraud, visited N.A.A. in Maryland and found that its "office" was a telephone in the living room of its executive director, who said he received $100-a-month salary. Although N.A.A. correspondence had designated the man as holding a "Ph.D." from the Sussex College of Technology in England, the British Embassy informed Jarvis that it did not consider the "school" or its diplomas valid.

20 posted on 10/28/2003 4:02:58 PM PST by dadokane
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To: dadokane
I don't care if her degree is not valid her premise is. It was discovered decades ago by one of the founders of AA.
21 posted on 10/28/2003 4:08:33 PM PST by Nov3
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To: Nov3
LARSON REFUSED TO PRODUCE EVEN ONE SUCCESSFUL FORMER PATIENT TO MAIA SZALAVITZ TO SUBSTANTIATE HER FRAUDULENT CLAIM OF A 75% SUCCESS RATE. THE AUTHORS POINTEDLY NOTE THAT SHE WAS THE ONLY REHAB IN THE U.S.A. THAT REFUSED TO DO SO.

"Dr." Larson's partner was defrocked by the Minnesota Board of Medicine after mis-treating 18 women patients with approaches touted in her book.

See: Recovery Options: The Complete Guide. How You and Your Loved Ones Can Understand and Treat Alcohol and Other Drug Problems. Joseph Volpicelli, M.D., Ph.D., Maia Szalavitz. Wiley & Sons, 2000. ISBN 0-471-34575-X. Paper, $15.95

22 posted on 10/28/2003 4:17:32 PM PST by dadokane
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To: Nov3
I agree with you and also support the premise that Bill Wilson postulated re: the importance of diet and vitamin therapy in his Oyster Bay papers; I agree with you and respect a real medical doctor, Robert Smith, M.D., who treated his alcoholic patients with sauerkraut (rich in vitamins) in order to restore a healthy body before the manufacture of vitamins was feasible.

What is absent, though, from the article is her (at least in the years 1993-96) open hostility toward Alcoholics Anonymous. In my opinion, A.A. has little if any place in her view of recovery.

23 posted on 10/28/2003 4:31:43 PM PST by dadokane
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To: dadokane
Regardless of her credentials or anything what she says about her "treatment center" the premise of this article is one that demands exploration, unless you will allege that Bill Wilson is not an expert on alcoholism. Do you allege that?
24 posted on 10/28/2003 4:34:05 PM PST by Nov3
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To: Nov3
implicit in post 23.
25 posted on 10/28/2003 4:36:37 PM PST by dadokane
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To: dadokane
What is absent, though, from the article is her (at least in the years 1993-96) open hostility toward Alcoholics Anonymous. In my opinion, A.A. has little if any place in her view of recovery.

In my follow up to the article I addressed that. Believe me I believe in AA. It saved my life October 12, 1984. I think her views about AA suck. However the low carb part of this was addressed by Bill Wilson and he did this before the actual effects of Niacin and low insulin levels on the body's production of eicosanoids and their dramatic effect on health and well being were discovered

26 posted on 10/28/2003 4:40:06 PM PST by Nov3
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To: dadokane
implicit in post 23.

We are out of sync here!

27 posted on 10/28/2003 4:40:52 PM PST by Nov3
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To: Think free or die
Yes, I'm certainly convinced. I used to have terrible fatigue and mood swings related to hypoglycemia. As soon as I adopted LC, they've disappeared. This is only one improvement in my health out of many. Atkins for 1+ years has really changed everything for the better on my end.
28 posted on 10/28/2003 4:44:36 PM PST by grimalkin
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To: Nov3
Believe me I believe in AA. It saved my life October 12, 1984. I think her views about AA suck. However the low carb part of this was addressed by Bill Wilson and he did this before the actual effects of Niacin and low insulin levels on the body's production of eicosanoids and their dramatic effect on health and well being were discovered

See? We DO agree. The A.A. Program saved my life since 3-3-93. When I stopped going to meetings and began taking the Steps, the drink thoughts disappeared after 26 years, "precisely" as the first 100 Men and Women stated it would.

29 posted on 10/28/2003 4:51:13 PM PST by dadokane
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To: Nov3
I started my normal-carb programme on or about April 1st. I started keeping a log around mid-May when it appeared that I was serious about losing all this weight. The success of this plan surprised me. I just kept losing and losing. Never plateaued once. I had reckoned on losing a pound a week for two years and I was concerned that I was being too aggressive. I anticipated not being under 200 pounds until March of 2005. Instead, I will probably be there by Thanksgiving!

The only downside was that I had to dump all my clothes and suits in the Goodwill box and I have spent a fortune on clothes I never got to wear. That's how fast I dropped waist sizes. No sooner would I buy them then I'd shrink out of them. I did keep one pair of jeans from April just to try them on every now and then to see how much I lost. I can now fit my wife in those pants with me.

30 posted on 10/28/2003 5:09:59 PM PST by SamAdams76 (202.4 (-97.6) Homestretch to 200)
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To: Nov3
The author of Potatoes Not Prozac, Kathleen DesMaisons, PhD makes this point in her book. She started out as an addictions counselor. From the website Radiant Recovery

Brain Chemistry 101

Our sugar sensitivity story includes some crucial data that has not been available to the general public before.

This information is about the vital role played by the brain chemical beta-endorphin. Beta-endorphin and its better-known partner, serotonin, can have dramatically positive -- or negative! -- effects on your moods, your behavior, and your energy level.

Your brain is designed to communicate information.

Billions of brain cells talk to each other moment by moment via a network of interconnecting cells. However, these cells do not actually touch one another; there is a tiny space between them. Information is passed across this space by way of chemical messengers called neurotransmitters. The mood-elevating brain chemicals serotonin and beta-endorphin are both neurotransmitters.

Each neurotransmitter has a unique molecular shape and carries a unique message.

The message of serotonin, for example, is "calm down". When one brain cell wants to send a message to another, it releases the relevant neurotransmitter, which floats across the tiny space between cells and looks for the receptors in the target cell that match its molecular shape.

A serotonin, for example, can only pass its message to a serotonin receptor. The same is true with beta-endorphin. If any other kind of neurotransmitter hits the receptors, nothing happens; the message does not get delivered.

Serotonin

When your serotonin is at an ideal level, you feel mellow and relaxed, hopeful and optimistic.

You have a sense of being at peace with life. You are creative, thoughtful, and focused. You also have a lot of impulse control, which enables you to "just say no" more easily.

People who are sugar-sensitive have naturally low levels of serotonin. As a result, they do not have good impulse control. It is almost impossible for them to "just say no" because there is such a short time between their getting the urge to do something and their doing it. This is why no matter how many times you vow to stick with a diet, you are not able to. The insufficient serotonin level in your brain isn't giving you the time you need to make good decisions.

Besides being impulsive, people with low levels of serotonin may feel depressed and find themselves craving foods such as bread, pasta or candy. This craving is the work of your brain, not your ego, because your brain knows that getting you to eat such foods -- which are all simple carbohydrates -- will temporarily raise your serotonin level. Unfortunately, it will also have a devastating boomerang effect and cause all sorts of negative feelings. Having low serotonin can cause these feelings:

Feeling depressed Acting impulsively Feeling blocked and scattered Having a short attention span Feeling suicidal Craving sweets and simple carbohydrates

Beta-Endorphin

The brain chemical beta-endorphin acts likes a powerful natural painkiller.

You may have heard of the "runner's high" (also called an "endorphin rush"), when the body responds to the pain of long-distance running by flooding the brain with beta-endorphin. Beta-endorphin produces a sense of well-being, reduces pain, eases emotional distress, increases self-esteem, and even creates a sense of euphoria.

Sugar-sensitive people have a naturally low level of beta-endorphin.

Their biochemical response to foods (like alcohol) that cause the release of beta-endorphin can be significantly greater than that of people with ordinary body chemistry.

Whether you are sugar-sensitive or not, sugar, like alcohol, causes a release of beta-endorphin. It can make you feel high and can reduce both physical and emotional pain. People with normal body chemistry can enjoy this without ill effects. But sugar-sensitive people respond to the beta-endorphin effect of sugar in a bigger way because their brain cells have far more beta-endorphin receptors than ordinary people.

For us sugar-sensitive people, eating sugar can make us feel and act as if we've been drinking wine!

Sugar can make us funny, relaxed, silly, inappropriate, talkative, and temporarily self-confident. You feel great -- and you long to feel this way again and again.

You have probably noticed this drug-like effect after eating sugar. Unfortunately, people don't take this response seriously. They make jokes about being a "chocoholic", but rarely speak of the real pain caused by the continuing and compulsive use of sweets, the end result of which is a drop in beta-endorphin. Having low beta-endorphin means:

Feeling tearful, isolated, depressed, and hopeless Having low self-esteem Feeling "done to" by others Having a low tolerance for pain (emotional and physical) Feeling emotionally overwhelmed Craving sweets So how does raising our beta-endorphin level with sugar result in low beta-endorphin?

The same way raising our blood sugar level or serotonin level ends up having just the opposite effect. First of all, due to a mechanism in the beta-endorphin system called "priming", ingesting a small amount of a drug (like sugar) can make a person want more. Priming is the reason it is so hard for a sugar-sensitive person to "just say no" after having a taste of something sweet. Second, the more sugar we eat, the more beta-endorphin is released, causing the brain to compensate for this "excess" by shutting down some of its beta-endorphin receptors. The result? Low beta-endorphin -- and all the pain that goes with it.


31 posted on 10/28/2003 5:14:34 PM PST by CajunConservative
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To: SamAdams76
...but I love sandwiches....I couldn't do it....
32 posted on 10/28/2003 5:20:55 PM PST by stands2reason
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To: SamAdams76
That is a little over 6 months so far for nearly 100 lbs. Not many can claim that!

I did keep one pair of jeans from April just to try them on every now and then to see how much I lost. I can now fit my wife in those pants with me.

I bet she is happy about this diet thing.

33 posted on 10/28/2003 5:22:55 PM PST by Nov3
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To: Nov3
Alcoholism, or any substance addiction is a physical dependence coupled with a mental obsession. I don't know how diet alone would help. But if it does for some, hats off to 'em!
34 posted on 10/28/2003 5:26:14 PM PST by Hildy
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To: Hildy
I don't know how diet alone would help.

It wouldn't of for me at least!

35 posted on 10/28/2003 5:27:00 PM PST by Nov3
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To: Nov3
Me neither! Wouldn't it be nice to get sober AND lose a few pounds while you're at it!!!!
36 posted on 10/28/2003 5:33:53 PM PST by Hildy
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To: stands2reason
...but I love sandwiches....I couldn't do it....

There are some good whole grain breads out there. I like Nature's Own 100% whole wheat bread. 2 slices 20g CHO with 6g fiber. Which makes it only 14g net carbs for the sandwich. I don't do a strict induction level but around 80-100g/day. Just read the labels and run from enriched bleached flour and high fructose corn syrup.

37 posted on 10/28/2003 6:03:55 PM PST by CajunConservative
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To: CajunConservative
high fructose corn syrup.

Hate cornsyrup. Ugh. I like bread just fine without sweeteners.

38 posted on 10/28/2003 6:38:38 PM PST by stands2reason
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To: Nov3
James woods said he was one of the greatest men of the 20th century.
39 posted on 10/28/2003 6:42:48 PM PST by since1868
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To: since1868
James woods said he was one of the greatest men of the 20th century.

Definitely, he saved untold numbers from a life of fear and a horrible fate. He was a true genius. The first 164 pages of the Big Book are truly a God guided work of art. The same can be said of the 12 and 12.

40 posted on 10/28/2003 8:00:13 PM PST by Nov3
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To: Hildy
Me neither! Wouldn't it be nice to get sober AND lose a few pounds while you're at it!!!!

The diet alone would not get me sober but it definitely helps me stay that way! Type in "Bill Wilson" and "Low Carb" into google.

It might keep you happy in this life especially since you are going to burn after death according to some of the freepers on the other thread! ;-]

41 posted on 10/28/2003 8:04:37 PM PST by Nov3
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To: Nov3
Nope. I'm not taking pain pills anymore... Pain's gone and I'm all healed up.

Of course, I still like to have a cold one once in a while...

42 posted on 10/29/2003 7:37:30 AM PST by Cogadh na Sith (The Guns of Brixton)
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To: chookter
chookter,

I can't say that every once in a while I wouldn't like a cold one either! Actually I would like a bunch of cold ones, but as someone wiser than me said "If I could drink normally I would do it all the time!"

Drink one for me.

43 posted on 10/29/2003 4:57:08 PM PST by Nov3
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