9-year-old arrested for waving toy gun

Cleveland Morning Journal ^

[proud_member_of_ VRWC]

LORAIN -- A 9-year-old boy was arrested at gunpoint and handcuffed Saturday because he was waving a toy gun over his head while seated on a bench outside a store, according to a Lorain police report.

His mother, Tamyka Saunders of Sheffield Lake, said her son, Thomas Clark Jr., told Lorain police when they approached him outside a Broadway business that the gun was a toy. An officer aimed his weapon at the boy's head, ordered him to the ground, handcuffed him and arrested him for juvenile delinquency by reason of inducing panic, according to the police report.

Saunders, 28, was also charged with obstruction of justice and resisting arrest when she pleaded with police not to arrest her son and to give him a warning, according to a police report.

''He doesn't deserve this. He is not a bad kid at all. That's what I was trying to explain to the officer. It's just not fair,'' Saunders said.

Saunders was getting her hair done at the Northern Institute of Cosmetology on Broadway near Seventh Street when the incident began.

Saunders said she and her son were spending the day together . Saunders said her son got his hair cut first, and then he went outside to play while waiting on her.

A passer-by who saw the boy playing just before noon with a gun -- described by police as a black plastic toy gun -- called police, who responded to the scene and found the boy ''waving what appeared to be a black handgun above his head,'' according to a police report. The report said the gun was spray painted black and resembled a genuine gun.

At that point, Officer Joe Novosielski confronted the boy at gunpoint, ordering him to drop the gun and then lie on the ground, the report said.

Thomas, who his mother said has been diagnosed with attention deficit disorder, said he was frightened by the incident.

Lorain police said Novosielski handled the situation properly.

''Obviously, someone got scared and called the police. Nobody driving down the street could tell it was a toy gun, so that's where the panic comes in. We charge that to anyone doing that,'' Lt. Robert Poli said.

''We're not going to tolerate anyone walking down the street, sitting on a bench ... if he's waving a gun around,'' Poli said. ''You don't know it's a toy gun.''

Saunders said police were not even going to come inside the cosmetology institute to tell her they were arresting her son. She said she learned from another woman her son was being arrested.

Saunders, wearing curlers in her hair, said she raced out to the police car to attempt to intervene on her son's behalf.

''He (Novosielski) snatched me by the arm and cuffed me. People were just walking down the street shaking their heads. I did not cuss at him, and I did not yell at him, because I'm not that type of person. I feel I'm the one that was disrespected,'' Saunders said of her arrest.

When informed her son was being arrested, Saunders attempted to pull her son away from the officer but moved away when told to, according to the report.

Police said Saunders pleaded with them not to arrest her son and to ''just give him a warning,'' according to the report. She also told police her son ''was just playing'' and that he didn't point the gun at anyone before asking police, ''Don't you have anything better to do?''

Saunders was eventually arrested after refusing to move away from the cruiser where her son had been placed, the report said. The officer told her to finish her business at the beauty salon and then come to the station to pick up her son, according to the report.

She is free on $750 bond and is scheduled to appear in Lorain Municipal Court today. The report of Thomas' arrest was forwarded to the juvenile court system, according to the police report.

Lorain County Prosecutor's Office spokesman Mark Hastings said the report had not been received yet.

[proud_member_of_ VRWC]

Ok, first off, why was a 9 year old allowed to off by himself? But seriously, held at gunpoint? What police department did this officer represent, the Jackboot Gestapo? I'm sure if the mother wouldn't have been quick to run outside and claim her son, they would've booked him and stuck him in the county jail's population. To me, what happened is just a LITTLE bit extreme.

[Jim Cane]

Apparently, the hysterical womanliness of Lorain cops is exceeded only by their stupidity.

[Maceman]

Ok, first off, why was a 9 year old allowed to off by himself?

I'm guessing you don't have any kids. Am I right?

[Dr Warmoose]

I'm thankful that the boy didn't wave the scary plastic toy at the officer's general direction, or the story would be the lead-in to a praise laden story about how the police officer emptied his Glock into the boy's chest and saved the community.

At leats they didn't dispatch SWAT and the FBI HRT team.

[Puppage]

said her son, Thomas Clark Jr., told Lorain police when they approached him outside a Broadway business that the gun was a toy.

Police need to take to word of criminals in leiu of their own safety. Just think how traumatised these criminals will be.

[CJ Wolf]

"Ok, first off, why was a 9 year old allowed to off by himself?" Because he was nine.

[Lee Heggy]

"The report said the gun was spray painted black and resembled a genuine gun."

Standard proceedure in Cleveland when the police realise that they have over reacted. A little spray paint alway's does the trick.

[BSunday]

Duplicate Thread Alert

Original Here

[Just another Joe]

Tamyka Saunders of Sheffield Lake, said her son, Thomas Clark Jr.

Alert!
Son with different last name.

Agree that arresting the lad is a little much.

[proud_member_of_ VRWC]

You are correct, I don't have kids. But, I don't intend to ever let my hypothetical 9 year old run off by himself, even if it is just right outside.

[Cobra64]

When I was a kid, if you did something not real smart, the cop would just have a conversation with you. This cop over reacted. Imagining handcuffing a 9 year old kid who just got a haircut? Sheesh. What a dolt.

[Dr Warmoose]

Standard proceedure in Cleveland when the police realise that they have over reacted. A little spray paint alway's does the trick.

Because the sound of a plastic gun hitting the side-walk sounds exactly like that of a real firearm. You would think after the terrorist was hogtied and restrained that the hysterical cop would have seen that the "perp" was only a normal kid playing and not a threat to the city.

I hope his peers see this jerk who finds nothing wrong with arresting a child playing, and his mother who is shocked and horrified to see the gestapo pull their SS crap on a harmless kid.

So who really was the most dangerous person at that time? A kid playing with a harmless toy? Or an out-of-control gestapo agent waving real guns that kill at a little kid and a terrified mother?

[MineralMan]

"Tamyka Saunders of Sheffield Lake, said her son, Thomas Clark Jr.

Alert!
Son with different last name.

"

Not unusual at all. A woman who has a child from a former husband might well have a different last name than the child. Happens everywhere. What were you inferring?

[MineralMan]

"Ok, first off, why was a 9 year old allowed to off by himself? "

Huh? In my community, 9-year-olds walk and bicycle all over town. Every afternoon, all day during the weekend and Summer, 9-year-olds are everywhere, alone and in groups.

I don't know where you live, but around here 9-year-old boys, especially, do not require an adult to be present. Indeed, they prefer it if they're not.

[Jim Cane]

Police need to take to word of criminals in leiu of their own safety.

Police[men]*snigger* need to stop being complete fags.

[trebb]

That's "liberalism" for you; let pedophiles, rapists and murderers off at every opportunity and arrest "dangerous" nine-year-olds for waving a toy. Separating the child from his mother during the arrest is just an added bonus preview of how sick our society is - we need protection from the harmless and it is illegal to profile or go after the real killers.

Our college class in Political Science had a guest speaker who said that he didn't believe there was any way to go back to a decent and common-sense society without another citizens' revolution.

[Maceman]

You are correct, I don't have kids. But, I don't intend to ever let my hypothetical 9 year old run off by himself, even if it is just right outside.

I think you are not aware of the developmental capabilities of the average nine-year old. They are perfectly able to be outside by themselves.

I understand that nowadays we have to be careful with our kids because of all the creeps and weirdos out there -- and I am not familiar with this particular neighborhood -- but there is absolutely nothing inherently wrong or dangerous about letting a 9-year old hang out in front of a store while his mom is inside.

With resepct to raising children by loving, caring parents, very few things are more troubling to me than a grossly over-protective parent.

[556x45]

LOL! Its hard to figure out where to start on this one b/c they screwed up on so many levels.When I was a kid people recognized that and treated me accordingly. They had the sense to know I was going to act my age. It wasnt a big deal and once rectified we all went on w/ life. Now its an infraction to act your age. Whats next? For kids, drawing certain things or talking about certain things or having certain things is off limits. Yet at some magic age some how theyre trusted w/ all that was off limits until then. Up to that magic moment theres nothing that prepares them for it.
Im sure those in government and its various organs would find governing/LE to be loads easier if we were all docile serfs. That is where all this is leading though.

[TLI]

Amen to that. That cop should be jailed, take out of his cell once a day at noon to a public place, have the series of events read aloud to the public, while a picture of the 9 year old kid that he felt he had to point a loaded gun at is displayed. Repeat every day for 30 days, then fire his @$$ cold, no recourse.

[Just another Joe]

I am inferring that the woman and her son are probably of a race other than white. With the spelling of the woman's first name, the fact that she has to have the boy WITH her while she has her hair done, not left with the father (on a Saturday), and the fact that the last names are different, it seems to me like a good bet.

The cops see a young (other than white) boy, sitting on a bench by himself outside a business, waving what appears to be a weapon in the air and what happens? (Do you realize how big some of these kids get at a young age nowadays?)
Would YOU approach that situation with other than extreme caution?

Like I said, arresting the lad is a bit much, IMO, especially arresting the mother along with him.

I know, I know, there could be many mitigating factors, it was time for the boys haircut anyway, the boy is from a prior marriage and the woman went back to her maiden name after the divorce, etc, etc.
But would you be willing to bet against my scenario?

[Nick Danger]

Pardon me for being philosophical here.

I've been thinking about the fires in California, and yes I really will get back to the point of this article. Although wildfires are certainly an annoyance and a danger to humans, they are part of a process that is really quite clever and complete. One can almost imagine the Lord, having invented trees and watching them for a while, realizing that the "tree process" would end with the Earth covered in dead trees unless something came along to clean them out every so often.

Nature exhibits many things of that sort, which periodically sweep away vast amounts of creation. In addition to fires, floods, and hurricanes, we even have objects from space that are very infrequent, but which periodically stress-test all the species on the entire Earth and render many of them extinct.

This seems to be part of a general design feature which amounts to "sweeping everything away and starting over" every so often.

I bring this up because when I read this story, I can't help but think of our society and the government that we have created as a kind of forest that is starting to strangle in its own dead trees. The young ones can't find a path to the sky, for all the dead wood around them blocking the view.

I was 9 once, and when I read this I just shake my head. There is no getting rid of this nonsense in a nice way, is there. It just continues to accumulate, like dead trees.

Is there a return path by which law enforcement returns to sanity along a sine wave, or is this process doomed, like forests and fertile plains are, to suffer the occasional sawtooth that comes like a flood or fire to sweep the good away with the bad, just to make room for growth?

I don't want any gubment agents thinking I'm advocating anything here. I'm just speculating that there might be a natural process by which the current order -- which is becoming entirely too orderly if this article has any meaning at all -- is, erm, swept away. Everything else is subject to that process. I doubt that human societies and their governments are any different.

[Laura Earl]

I don't know where you live, but around here 9-year-old boys, especially, do not require an adult to be present. Indeed, they prefer it if they're not.

Same here...and given that weird smell 9 y.o. boys have, that is just fine!

[MineralMan]

"I am inferring that the woman and her son are probably of a race other than white. With the spelling of the woman's first name, the fact that she has to have the boy WITH her while she has her hair done, not left with the father (on a Saturday), and the fact that the last names are different, it seems to me like a good bet."

They could be non-white, but what's your point? If the woman had remarried, she'd have a different last name than her child from a previous marriage. The father could be working on Saturday (lots of dads work on Saturday). Your inference that the boy does not have a father in the family is specious, at best.

The color of this boy is irrelevant to the stupidity of this arrest.

[proud_member_of_ VRWC]

Well, let me then say that I am wrong in that light. I concede that I do not have any kids and truly am unaware of the developmental capabilities of a 9 year old. But for what its worth, I do believe that the officer went overboard with this one. That belief, I will not retract.

[Maceman]

After seeing your tag-line, I was intrigued and looked at your profile -- particular your discussion of atheism.

I have no problem with Atheists, as I was one myself for a very long time, and I completely respect the individual spiritual paths that others take in life.

But I do disagree that Atheism is not a religion. I maintain that it is. Like any other religious doctrine, it is a belief -- based entirely on faith -- about the fundamental spiritual nature of the universe and the existence of a supreme being.

As it happens, my personal life path led me from an almost militant atheism to a belief in God, though I belong to no organized religion. No one speaks for me with respect to matters of faith. So by your definition, I guess you'd say -- even though I firmly believe in God -- that I do not have a religion either.

Sorry to post this irrelevant comment on a thread about a completely different subject, but in your profile you said that you do not respond to Freepmail. Since you put your religious status in your tagline, and you have instructed that anyone who has anything to say to you to do so publicly, this seems like an appropriate place to say what I wanted to say.

Please understand, I am not trying to convert you. I respect your atheism and wish you well. I just wanted to make the point that atheism is, in fact, as much a religion as any other spiritual faith.

[Maceman]

But for what its worth, I do believe that the officer went overboard with this one. That belief, I will not retract.

I completely agree with you on that one.

[MineralMan]

"Same here...and given that weird smell 9 y.o. boys have, that is just fine!"

Indeed! They sometimes show up here at my business and wander around looking at stuff. They often do smell a bit. Even 10 and 11 year olds seem to carry that same aroma around with them. It seems to go away when they start wanting to attract girls, though, oddly enough.

[MineralMan]

"I do believe that the officer went overboard with this one. That belief, I will not retract."

Oh, I think we all agree on that point.

[giznort]

I'm more concerned that the mother ran out with curlers in her hair!!!! Was she wearing one of those shapeless muu-muus?

[Just another Joe]

The color of this boy is irrelevant to the stupidity of this arrest.

I agree that the color of the boy is irrelevant to the stupidity of the arrest but I would be willing to bet it isn't irrelevant to the arrest itself. If it was a young, white, blond haired boy the outcome very well could have been a lot different, IMO.

As much as we would like it to be, this world is not perfect. People are treated differently because of the color of their skin whether they deserve it or not.

[Jim Cane]

How difficult would it have been for this cop, seeing a 9 yo sitting on a bench waiving a black gun over his head (as opposed to pointing it at people) to ask:

Cop: "Is that a real gun?"

Boy: "No, Sir"

Cop: "Can you put it down on the bench so I can look at it?"

Boy" "Sure. See? It's just plastic."

Cop: "Some people thought it was real. Could you just put it away until you get home? Otherwise I'll have to come back and take it away. In know, it sounds crazy, but some people are nervous and dimwitted when it comes to guns, even toy ones."

Boy: "Yes, Sir.

[MineralMan]

"But I do disagree that Atheism is not a religion. I maintain that it is. Like any other religious doctrine, it is a belief -- based entirely on faith -- about the fundamental spiritual nature of the universe and the existence of a supreme being. "

It's certainly not a religion for me, but this is way off topic.

[headsonpikes]

Given your sad fixation on the ethnicity of the 'perps', I certainly hope that the sentiment expressed in your tagline begins to kick in for you.

[MineralMan]

"How difficult would it have been for this cop, seeing a 9 yo sitting on a bench waiving a black gun over his head (as opposed to pointing it at people) to ask:

Cop: "Is that a real gun?"
"

Ah, but that would take some common sense, something apparently lacking here.

[Just another Joe]

Read my post 30 for the reason for my, "sad fixation on the ethnicity of the 'perps'".

It is not that I think they brought it on themselves because they were 'black'.
I think that is the reason the police acted as they did. And no, I don't agree with that type of thinking.

I don't care if a person is black, red, yellow, green, or purple with pink polka dots. It's the person that counts, not the color.
Sadly, there are people that treat other people of different colors and races with suspicion and outright hostility only because of that fact.

[Maceman]

I agree that it is way off topic, but I didn't think my comment to you warranted its own thread.

[Some hope remaining.]

Your possible racism aside, I can offer a few facts. Yes, the kid is black. They showed him on the news last night. He's a nice average sized nine year old clean cut cute kid. He was not a big kid for his age and seemed rather timid. He reminded me somewhat of an early-in-the-series Gary Coleman from Different Strokes. The mother was arrested and charged with evasion of arrest for trying to talk sense into the cop who was handcuffing her cute little kid. She was released on 250 dollar bond but will have to go to court.

[Blood of Tyrants]

Let me ask you a question, are you serious about asking why a 9 year old was by himself? The boy was NINE, not three.

Second, it seems that the cops are hiring people with the lowest possible IQ and still keep their heart beating when they walk. The fact that the police chief knee-jerked and automatically backed up a f%$#@* MORON who pulled a gun on a 9 year old shows that HE is just as big an idiot!

I hope the mom sues these fools and gets a mint.

[sean327]

So in your world because this woman has a unique name, her son has a different last name, and he is out with his mother on a saturday afternoon, and he has a plastic gun he must be black and the jackass cop only did what he was trained to do. Man your world must suck. Lets take your argument apart:
1. My sons occasionally spend saturday afternoons with their mother.
2. My 2 oldest boys have different last name than their mother. (They are my step-sons)
3. A9 year old is sitting outside wiating for his mother.(most 9 year old boy don't want to hang out while mom is getting her hair done. I know mine don't)
4. I must be black. (wrong, hispanic.)
5. Last but not least, if it was your son that this happened to you would be friggin' furious. the treatment these people got was uncalled for and appaling. Yor assumptions are also assinine and appalling.

[TLI]

Sounds good to me but MineraMan is correct, that would involve commin sense... which apparently is not an abundant quality in that specific PD...

[Cap'n Crunch]

The illegitimacy rate here in Lorain is over 50%, it's one of the highest in the state, so I understand.

[Just another Joe]

See my post 30 for the cause of my, "racism".

[Some hope remaining.]

Yeah, that would make way too much sense.

It was sad watching the scared little kid describe what the cop did to him, and him gesturing how the cop was holding his (real) gun inches from his forehead even after he dropped the toy "gun" and told the cop it was just a toy.

[Held_to_Ransom]

''We're not going to tolerate anyone walking down the street, sitting on a bench ... if he's waving a gun around,''

Well, but we know he wasn't, was he? It is true though that in some circumstances, the cops could have shot first and asked questions later. The way some kids are raised today, it might very well have been a real gun, and dead cops don't get raises and retirements plans.

The cuffing bit was pretty stupid though.

[Jim Cane]

The illegitimacy rate here in Lorain is over 50%, it's one of the highest in the state, so I understand.

Wow, 50% of Lorain's PD is comprised of illegitimate cops? No wonder they cuffed the kid and arrested the mother.

[Cap'n Crunch]

LOL... I can tell you a story of a cute little 11 year old from Lorain who walked into a convenience store and robbed the clerk.

He was real cute too.

[Cap'n Crunch]

You don't even know the whole story. You know the media story. How ignorant are you?

[Guillermo]

Zero Tolerance = Zero Common Sense

[headsonpikes]

Sorry for my total misinterpretation of your point.

[proud_member_of_ VRWC]

please refer to post #24