Unions: Good or Bad?

The Motley Fool ^

[LibertarianInExile]

BWA HA HA! Well said, AGAIN!

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

Unions: Good or Bad?,

Now?

Bad.

50 years ago...I think they were bad then too.

100 years ago...Maybe a necessary evil. Company towns and company stores were not good things.

[DannyTN]

"What I am referring to are the costs of work stoppages and overhead absorption due to incompetent and/or unmotivated workers. These factors play a key role in the viability of a business, particularly manufacturing firms. "

I agree that eliminating work shoppages and poor workers is desirable. But I don't know that it is desirable to completely eliminate unions to do that. I also agree that unions can have a negative effect on motivation and morale.

But the issue still gets back to the question of: are there scenarios where labor economics results in undesirable scenarios.

In addition to the dust bowl scenario, I sometimes wonder if a large part of the economic wealth that we have is due to having the majority of our people participate in the economy at an adequate level. In other words, if labor economics drove the wages too low to where the majority of people are just subsisting then nobody is buying luxury items. That could create a situation where whole industries never had the impetus to start. The economy could be a much less diverse place and therefore a much less rich economy.

Would labor economics result in that? I don't know. The fact is we've had labor unions for a long time. We have had minimum wage laws for a long time. Those forces raise the average wage level and in that sense are good for the economy. In an economy with full employment, you could argue that neither would be needed. But in an economy with excess labor, I think those serve to help buffer the economy.

[DannyTN]

"Of course, at the slightest sniffle or hangnail, he calls in sick. "

Some people abuse sick leave. But I have a real gripe about people who are sick and don't use their sick leave. They come to the office and infect everyone else. Instead of using their benefit appropriately. They end up costing their company 10-20 times as much than if they simply used the benefit for what it was intended for.

STAY HOME!

[Bambino]

They have become far worse than the people they were originally created to protect the workers from.

[69ConvertibleFirebird]

Look at the industries that unions have killed or injured. Steel, Automotive, Airlines, textiles etc.

Don't forget the BIG one... the government education system with it's unions. That local Chrisitian schools can give kids much better educations than govt. run schools, for less than half the cost per student, says a LOT about union run govt. schools.

[Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit]

Fantasically horrific.

[69ConvertibleFirebird]

"If a company wants to avoid unionization, what is its best strategy? "

Shut down, sell off the equipment for your retirement money, then send production to Mexico and/or China.

[TexasTransplant]

I must thank the Unions for waking me up, I was cruising through life oblivious to everything, got into a discussion with an auto worker who was making $25.00 an hour for standing near a machine that was doing the work he used to do, I rightly told him what a waste of Money and Life, that was a little bit of light and the Clarence Thomas hearings (a little more) then Rush Limbaugh (a little more)... next thing you know

 

I could see

 

All Thanks to one Union Guy!

 

[TexasTransplant]

I must thank the Unions for waking me up, I was cruising through life oblivious to everything, got into a discussion with an auto worker who was making $25.00 an hour for standing near a machine that was doing the work he used to do, I rightly told him what a waste of Money and Life, that was a little bit of light and the Clarence Thomas hearings (a little more) then Rush Limbaugh (a little more)... next thing you know

 

I could see

 

All Thanks to one Union Guy!

 

[TexasTransplant]

I must thank the Unions for waking me up, I was cruising through life oblivious to everything, got into a discussion with an auto worker who was making $25.00 an hour for standing near a machine that was doing the work he used to do, I rightly told him what a waste of Money and Life, that was a little bit of light and the Clarence Thomas hearings (a little more) then Rush Limbaugh (a little more)... next thing you know

 

I could see

 

All Thanks to one Union Guy!

 

[CSM]

"I don't see this strike settling (also the MTA mechanics strike). I think this is the final line for unions -- I don't know what happens if the Supermarkets NEVER return to the bargaining table. After about a year I have to assume the 100% scab workforce will pretty much BE the workforce."

This exact thing happened in Detroit to the newspapers!

[TexasTransplant]

Solar Flares = Triple Posts
Bad Finger! (That is going to hurt later)

[CSM]

You are very misinformed. Each new model year an assembly line is revamped to maximize efficiency. If an investment is shown to be paid off over time then it will be made to allow for greater efficiency. Of course all of that is limited to what the UAW will allow! If the efficiency is seen as detrimental to the union, then they will not allow it to take place. If the plant can become more efficient while avoiding layoffs the union will allow it to happen. That hinders productivity and it is no surprise to me that it takes Ford or GM twice as many "man hours" to produce a unit than the transplants.

Whenever the UAW tries to infiltrate the transplants they have failed. Proof that unions are bad!

Have you ever been in the parking lot of a UAW OEM Assembly Plant? Have you ever been in that same parking lot at lunch? Try it some time, you would be surprised. The amount of alcohol drank and MJ smoked would shock you. The number of people sitting around during a work day would shock you.

Let me give you a concrete example: Suppose a line goes down on Monday and the number of units produced falls short of the required number of units. That production is made up on the next day. Now imagine that the same shift is able to make their Tuesday production goal 2 hours early on Tuesday. What would you imagine that they do? Wouldn't you think that they just work straight through to make up the loss of production on Monday? Nope, they shut down until their shift ends and work the extra production on OT. Another 2 hour loss of productivity.

This is just one example, add lack of flexibility, job classification, paying for UAW reps that are not producing, etc. and it is clear that the transplants have a huge advantage over the US OEM's. That is a big reason why the big 3 market share is declining while the number of vehicles sold increases.

Yes, this is not the only reason, it is just one of the top 3. I can't think of any instance where unions are a benefit to our economy.

[John O]

Pope Leo XIII: Rerum Novarum (On the Condition of Workers)
Pope Pius XI: Quadragesimo Anno (On Reconstruction of the Social Order)
Pope John Paul II: Laborem Exercens:(On Human Work)

I've looked and looked and looked and just can't seem to find these books in the bible.

Where exactly are they between Genesis and Revelation?

[John O]

And what are fair wages?

Any wages that the employer and the employee agree upon are fair wages. Could be $0.25 per hour or could be $25,000 per hour. If they both agree then it is fair

[John O]

unions aren't ANY worse than other affiliations of those with like interests, such as joint-stock corporations or auto club members or the NRA.

If it weren't for the fact that unions exist only to deprive the business owner of his property you would be right. If every union had a no strike clause and every union did not defend slovenly work by it's members, and every union only served as a collective, but non-binding, conract vehicle then unions would be OK. As it is they are all criminal enterprises and are anti-biblical. Whenever people collude to deprive someone of their property (as unions always do) then they are committing organized theft no matter what you call it

[ovrtaxt]

Did it ever occur to you that Maybe Gid isn't the One doing the cruel stuff? Maybe it's us doing it to each other. You think the Third Reich was God's idea? I don't. I think the U.S. going in there and kicking the crap out of Germany was.

[John O]

after seeing the state of our world, I am now inclined to agree.

God IS cruel.

Perfect, Just and Omnipotent maybe..but still Cruel.

Not cruel, just a gentleman. God will not impose His will on us by getting us out of the hell we've made this earth unless we invite Him to. How many elected leaders etc do you know who have fallen on their face before God and asked Him to heal their land? (Perhaps President Bush, thank God, but few others)

The world is in the state that we made it. God just shakes His head and longs for us to ask Him to fix it. He won't override our will.

[ovrtaxt]

Bullcrap nothing. John O is exactly correct. Now, that's not to say that there aren't wrong attitudes on the corporate side, because there are. But the Bible stresses that the individual laborer, worker, employee is worthy of his hire. You shall not muzzle the ox that treads the grain. Again, a good worker is entitled to a fair compensation.

Collective bargaining provides a niche for the lazy and lesser skilled to be unfairly compensated. The bottom line is that unions are unbiblical, but corporate greed is too.