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Scientists find evolution of life
EurekAlert ^ | 10/30/03

Posted on 10/30/2003 5:04:39 PM PST by Dales

LIVERMORE, Calif. -- A trio of scientists including a researcher from the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory has found that humans may owe the relatively mild climate in which their ancestors evolved to tiny marine organisms with shells and skeletons made out of calcium carbonate.

In a paper titled "Carbonate Deposition, Climate Stability and Neoproterozoic Ice Ages" in the Oct. 31 edition of Science, UC Riverside researchers Andy Ridgwell and Martin Kennedy along with LLNL climate scientist Ken Caldeira, discovered that the increased stability in modern climate may be due in part to the evolution of marine plankton living in the open ocean with shells and skeletal material made out of calcium carbonate. They conclude that these marine organisms helped prevent the ice ages of the past few hundred thousand years from turning into a severe global deep freeze.

"The most recent ice ages were mild enough to allow and possibly even promote the evolution of modern humans," Caldeira said. "Without these tiny marine organisms, the ice sheets may have grown to cover the earth, like in the snowball glaciations of the ancient past, and our ancestors might not have survived."

The researchers used a computer model describing the ocean, atmosphere and land surface to look at how atmospheric carbon dioxide would change as a result of glacier growth. They found that, in the distant past, as glaciers started to grow, the oceans would suck the greenhouse gas -- carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere -- making the Earth colder, promoting an even deeper ice age. When marine plankton with carbonate shells and skeletons are added to the model, ocean chemistry is buffered and glacial growth does not cause the ocean to absorb large amounts of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.

But in Precambrian times (which lasted up until 544 million years ago), marine organisms in the open ocean did not produce carbonate skeletons -- and ancient rocks from the end of the Precambrian geological age indicate that huge glaciers deposited layers of crushed rock debris thousands of meters thick near the equator. If the land was frozen near the equator, then most of the surface of the planet was likely covered in ice, making Earth look like a giant snowball, the researchers said.

Around 200 million years ago, calcium carbonate organisms became critical to helping prevent the earth from freezing over. When the organisms die, their carbonate shells and skeletons settle to the ocean floor, where some dissolve and some are buried in sediments. These deposits help regulate the chemistry of the ocean and the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. However, in a related study published in Nature on Sept. 25, 2003, Caldeira and LLNL physicist Michael Wickett found that unrestrained release of fossil-fuel carbon dioxide to the atmosphere could threaten extinction for these climate-stabilizing marine organisms.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: crevolist
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Two hints.

1) This would be a very poor thread to choose to engage in flamewarring or flamebaiting.

2) It would be wrong to try to guess my position based on me posting this thread.

1 posted on 10/30/2003 5:04:39 PM PST by Dales
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To: Dales
Correct!

LOL

I like your style!

:-)

2 posted on 10/30/2003 5:07:23 PM PST by maestro
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To: Dales
So in the past, these organisms sucked carbon dioxide out of the air. But now that we are burning fossil fuels, these organisms will become estinct. Why? Because of the carbon dioxide?

Does not compute. Global warming sky is falling stupid computer model bump.

3 posted on 10/30/2003 5:09:16 PM PST by DannyTN (Note left on my door by a pack of neighborhood dogs.)
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To: Dales
"However, in a related study published in Nature on Sept. 25, 2003, Caldeira and LLNL physicist Michael Wickett found that unrestrained release of fossil-fuel carbon dioxide to the atmosphere could threaten extinction for these climate-stabilizing marine organisms."

They just HAVE to add the propanda about "excess atmospheric CO2". Exactly "why" should a few more ppm of CO2 "threaten extinction" for critters who make their shells out of calcium carbonate?? Seems to me that it would be more likely to make them flourish in greater abundance.

4 posted on 10/30/2003 5:10:27 PM PST by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel)
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To: DannyTN
With the economy back up to the Reagan levels, global warming is passe, and we are back to the rollickin' days of global cooling. Get retro, baby!
5 posted on 10/30/2003 5:12:06 PM PST by Dales
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To: Dales
"The most recent ice ages were mild enough to allow and possibly even promote the evolution of modern humans," Caldeira said. "Without these tiny marine organisms, the ice sheets may have grown to cover the earth, like in the snowball glaciations of the ancient past, and our ancestors might not have survived."

100,000 years hence...

"The most recent ice ages were mild enough to allow and possibly even promote the evolution of modern gogatons," Xizirina said. "Without these hairless primates, the ice sheets may have grown to cover the earth, like in the snowball glaciations of the ancient past, and our ancestors might not have survived."

6 posted on 10/30/2003 5:13:12 PM PST by StatesEnemy
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To: Dales; FourtySeven
Dales is rockstar LOC! Good post Dales!
7 posted on 10/30/2003 5:17:39 PM PST by JethroHathAWay (If all you got to do is follow me around you need to chingate)
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To: Wonder Warthog
Seems to me that it would be more likely to make them flourish in greater abundance.

Remember, Philbert, environmentalism has become a religion and when you do not adhere to doctrine illogical bad things are promised.

8 posted on 10/30/2003 5:21:09 PM PST by Mike Darancette (Proud member - Neo-Conservative Power Vortex)
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To: Dales
It would be wrong to try to guess my position based on me posting this thread.

If the FR has a secret NWO agenda ... master race - PLAN ---- I certainly would like to know about it !

9 posted on 10/30/2003 5:25:23 PM PST by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: Dales
So there were glaciers at the equator. The whole earth must have been covered with ice. I guess it all piled up at the high points and left the ocean basins empty, right? Sure. If not, where did all the water go?

And I also believe that they know enough to model the atmosphere and predict whether or not CO2 will concentrate in the air or be absorbed in the water. Their many successes to date in such predictions (can anyone name one?) should give us plenty of confidence in their methods.

And what does this have to do with evolution?
10 posted on 10/30/2003 5:26:14 PM PST by Rocky
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To: Dales
Whatever! People will never stop at trying to explain the unexplainable. Unless you believe in God that is, then it is easy to explain.
11 posted on 10/30/2003 5:26:41 PM PST by vpintheak (Our Liberties we prize, and our rights we will maintain!)
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To: f.Christian
And if the if part of your declaration is negative, then?

But it is Halloween, almost. Might as well let your imagination run wild.

Just as long as the thread doesn't turn into another flame barrage or nasti fight (with moose bites and lutefisk smitings), then I don't have a dog in this hunt.

12 posted on 10/30/2003 5:29:57 PM PST by Dales
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To: PatrickHenry; VadeRetro; Piltdown_Woman; RadioAstronomer; Physicist
Read post #1. Ping.
13 posted on 10/30/2003 5:30:59 PM PST by Junior ("Your superior intellects are no match for our puny weapons!")
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To: Dales
Well some of the injuries are faked ...

wouldn't you think --- foul play !
14 posted on 10/30/2003 5:33:27 PM PST by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: vpintheak
People will never stop at trying to explain the unexplainable.

That's as may be, but science is about discovering how to explain the explainable.

Unless you believe in God that is, then it is easy to explain.

Saying "God did it" isn't an explanation. The question becomes: how did God do it?

15 posted on 10/30/2003 5:34:57 PM PST by Physicist
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To: f.Christian
Hey, you're our secret weapon. That's why we set up our posting conflagerator to scramble your posts so no one can figure out what you're saying. Only you see the real message. Everyone else sees only gobbledygook.
16 posted on 10/30/2003 5:35:34 PM PST by Jim Robinson (Conservative by nature... Republican by spirit... Patriot by heart... AND... ANTI-Liberal by GOD!)
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To: Jim Robinson
ahhhhhh thanks ... tlbfletcher --- the gift !
17 posted on 10/30/2003 5:37:20 PM PST by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: f.Christian
Some things can't be faked.


18 posted on 10/30/2003 5:38:29 PM PST by Dales (Although, I go more for the gal in Fletch...)
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To: Rocky
If not, where did all the water go?

There still would have been liquid water below the ice, because of the geothermal heat coming from the ocean floor. As is the case today, life could have been supported during these severe ice ages around the hydrothermal vents.

19 posted on 10/30/2003 5:39:51 PM PST by Physicist
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To: Jim Robinson
LOL!
20 posted on 10/30/2003 5:41:24 PM PST by Quick1
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To: Rocky
When the current climatology models are applied to the climate as it existed in 1800 they do not accurately describe the climate in 1900.

Why then would these same climatologists believe that they can apply the same model to our current climate and expect an accurate forecast 100 years into the future?

Insanity.
21 posted on 10/30/2003 5:44:13 PM PST by Straight Vermonter (We secretly switched ABC news with Al-Jazeera, lets see if these people can tell the difference.)
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To: Dales; All
may owe...
may be due in part...
possibly even promote...
may have grown...
was likely covered...

Talk about a leap of faith!

22 posted on 10/30/2003 5:46:45 PM PST by NewLand (The truth can't be ignored...)
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To: Dales
The fence is widening to accomodate those straddling it.
23 posted on 10/30/2003 5:51:29 PM PST by Old Professer
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To: f.Christian
Your English is even worse than my own. Congratulations.
24 posted on 10/30/2003 5:53:53 PM PST by Alter Kaker (Whatever tears one may shed, in the end one always blows one’s nose.-Heine)
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To: Alter Kaker
Posted by f.Christian to Sentis


Evolution uses existence as proof with no explanation of existence ... it happens (( big bang ))---

you 're comfortable with that gobble - gobble - turkey !




Posted by Sentis to f.Christian

Religion uses God as proof with no explanation of his existence. I know existence exists I don't see god.
25 posted on 10/30/2003 5:54:45 PM PST by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: Dales
This whole article is pure total .....


26 posted on 10/30/2003 6:00:07 PM PST by Texas Deer Hunter (Liberals and Democrats suck the life out of every living thing. Pure evil.)
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To: Dales

27 posted on 10/30/2003 6:05:12 PM PST by NewLand (The truth can't be ignored...)
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To: NewLand
may owe...
may be due in part...
possibly even promote...
may have grown...
was likely covered...

Talk about a leap of faith!

Huh??? The press release contains the kind of qualifiers you'd expect a careful scientist to make, and you sneer at it as being evidence of a leap of faith???

If instead they said something like "Earth's temperate climate definitively owes its existence to the rise of marine animals with calcium carbonate shells...", would you not be complaining about the scientists' arrogance for daring to make such a definitive statement about the past? Would you not then solemnly intone the common creationist mantra: "This scientist shows more faith in godless materialism than the most ardent believer in God..."?

What, you say you would never do that? OK, then what should the scientist have said in order for you to not blurt out, "leap of faith"?

28 posted on 10/30/2003 6:12:31 PM PST by jennyp (http://crevo.bestmessageboard.com)
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To: Dales
But in Precambrian times (which lasted up until 544 million years ago), marine organisms in the open ocean did not produce carbonate skeletons -- and ancient rocks from the end of the Precambrian geological age indicate that huge glaciers deposited layers of crushed rock debris thousands of meters thick near the equator. If the land was frozen near the equator, then most of the surface of the planet was likely covered in ice, making Earth look like a giant snowball, the researchers said.

A nice Scientific American article on the Snowball Earth hypothesis, which has gained considerable acceptance. (But some people think it was really only a "Slushball Earth.")

29 posted on 10/30/2003 6:13:33 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Texas Deer Hunter
To: GaryL

The fossil record shows ... the abrupt appearance of fully-formed species --- exactly what the creation model predicts.

14 posted on ... 10/30/2003 12:15 PM PST by--- f.Christian

30 posted on 10/30/2003 6:17:27 PM PST by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: VadeRetro
I favor Gelati Earth myself. Mmmm...lemon.
31 posted on 10/30/2003 6:18:39 PM PST by Physicist
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To: f.Christian
The fossil record shows ... the abrupt appearance of fully-formed species --- exactly what the creation model predicts.

And the historical record shows the abrupt appearance of fully-grown adults. Ever see Stalin's baby pictures? Neither did I. Hmm...

32 posted on 10/30/2003 6:22:16 PM PST by Physicist
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To: *crevo_list; VadeRetro; jennyp; Junior; longshadow; RadioAstronomer; Scully; Piltdown_Woman; ...
PING. [This ping list is for the evolution side of evolution threads, and sometimes for other science topics. FReepmail me to be added or dropped.]
33 posted on 10/30/2003 6:23:51 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Preserve the purity of your precious bodily fluids!)
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To: Physicist
Placemarker
34 posted on 10/30/2003 6:24:34 PM PST by Ogmios (Since when is 66 senate votes for judicial confirmations constitutional?)
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To: Ogmios
Ogy Dawg! Have a seat in the bleachers. I'm up to no good. Me and Fourtyseven. Beer?
35 posted on 10/30/2003 6:27:26 PM PST by JethroHathAWay (If all you got to do is follow me around you need to chingate)
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To: Physicist
I favor Gelati Earth myself. Mmmm...lemon.

Someone's going to go with Slurpee Earth or something, but I vote for Vanilla Popsicle Earth. (Haven't had one in 30 years, but I know I used to like them.)

36 posted on 10/30/2003 6:29:00 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Jim Robinson
Hey, you're our secret weapon. That's why we set up our posting conflagerator to scramble your posts so no one can figure out what you're saying. Only you see the real message. Everyone else sees only gobbledygook

Oh for goodness sake..and all this time I thought it was me.

37 posted on 10/30/2003 6:29:01 PM PST by stanz (Those who don't believe in evolution should go jump off the flat edge of the Earth.)
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To: Physicist
More power - happiness to everybody ... life goes on !

I know a guy just recently who was punched from behind and knocked to the ground by a guy blocking his car in front of his family and the police at the airport didn't want to get involved in a personal dispute with no evidence ... knock yourselves out !
38 posted on 10/30/2003 6:29:39 PM PST by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: jennyp
"...you say you would never do that? OK..."

Correct. I prefer not to engage in useless exercizes of futility.

"...then what should the scientist have said in order for you to not blurt out, "leap of faith"?"

I was just making an observation, that's all. I don't speak for speculators...in science, finance, or war.

39 posted on 10/30/2003 6:29:50 PM PST by NewLand (The truth can't be ignored...)
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To: Dales
1) This would be a very poor thread to choose to engage in flamewarring or flamebaiting.

2) It would be wrong to try to guess my position based on me posting this thread.

Guess? I can tell, with 100% certainty. You're a Nazi. </sarcasm>

40 posted on 10/30/2003 6:30:59 PM PST by xm177e2 (Stalinists, Maoists, Ba'athists, Pacifists: Why are they always on the same side?)
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To: Physicist
There are no dumb questions, only the questions you didn't ask, right? So, please forgive my ignorance - when the writers talk about "buffering", does this mean that they are talking about pH?

Casting my memory far, far back - calcium carbonate is a base, and I thought that the CO2 was acidic, so why wouldn't they combine?

Also, where did the calcium come from?
41 posted on 10/30/2003 6:31:48 PM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: jennyp
What, you say

All your base are belong to us!

42 posted on 10/30/2003 6:31:54 PM PST by xm177e2 (Stalinists, Maoists, Ba'athists, Pacifists: Why are they always on the same side?)
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To: NewLand
[may owe... may be due in part... possibly even promote... may have grown... was likely covered...]

Talk about a leap of faith!

No, the tentative language clearly indicates that this is *not* a "leap of faith", it's a careful indication of the preliminary nature of the models.

A "leap of faith" *would* have been a valid charge if they had simply declared their conclusions in declarative language like "...is due to...", etc. -- but they did not do that.

Like any preliminary scientific finding, they're careful not to overstate the amount of certainty. And also like all scientific proposal, no one experiment, model, or paper can (nor should) instantly establish the idea beyond question. "New" ideas are always presented tentatively, no matter how well they are supported by experiment or evidence.

Only after they have been put out into the arena of scientific verification (via peer review, replication, etc.) and have withstood all objections that could be raised to them, and successfully predict new findings, well enough to achieve widespread acceptance in the scientific community (and do so better than current or opposing theories), will the new ideas reach the point where they can be reasonably written in language that implies a good degree of confidence in its trustworthiness.

43 posted on 10/30/2003 6:32:11 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Dales
2) It would be wrong to try to guess my position based on me posting this thread.

You were Hugh Akston were you not?

44 posted on 10/30/2003 6:32:54 PM PST by AndrewC
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To: xm177e2
But a kinder, gentler one?
45 posted on 10/30/2003 6:33:31 PM PST by Dales
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To: xm177e2

46 posted on 10/30/2003 6:35:53 PM PST by NewLand (The truth can't be ignored...)
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To: Dales
I personally know a lady who went to a major hospital emergency room at night ... who was attacked unprovoked and assaulted by obviously a mentally homeless insane crazy man and lost her case of damages because the courts ruled the homeless had rights to be there on the hospt property and the hospital wasn't responsibility for security -- to police them !

This wasn't a one time appearance - action of that crazy either ?

She told me her lawyer sold her down the river behind her back !

How about teri and don adams ?
47 posted on 10/30/2003 6:37:35 PM PST by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: Ichneumon
Very nice. Thank you.
48 posted on 10/30/2003 6:37:45 PM PST by NewLand (The truth can't be ignored...)
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To: Physicist
Ever see Stalin's baby pictures?

Close, but no cigar:


49 posted on 10/30/2003 6:40:31 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: f.Christian
Be fair! The abrupt appearance of species in the fossil record (for whatever reason) hundreds of millions of years ago might solve the abiogenesis problem, but wouldn't negate the evolution of species since that time.

Nor would it be consistent with the view that all life on earth was created at the same time so that man, dinosaurs, and trilobites walked the earth together.
50 posted on 10/30/2003 6:41:31 PM PST by CobaltBlue
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