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Scientists find evolution of life
EurekAlert ^ | 10/30/03

Posted on 10/30/2003 5:04:39 PM PST by Dales

LIVERMORE, Calif. -- A trio of scientists including a researcher from the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory has found that humans may owe the relatively mild climate in which their ancestors evolved to tiny marine organisms with shells and skeletons made out of calcium carbonate.

In a paper titled "Carbonate Deposition, Climate Stability and Neoproterozoic Ice Ages" in the Oct. 31 edition of Science, UC Riverside researchers Andy Ridgwell and Martin Kennedy along with LLNL climate scientist Ken Caldeira, discovered that the increased stability in modern climate may be due in part to the evolution of marine plankton living in the open ocean with shells and skeletal material made out of calcium carbonate. They conclude that these marine organisms helped prevent the ice ages of the past few hundred thousand years from turning into a severe global deep freeze.

"The most recent ice ages were mild enough to allow and possibly even promote the evolution of modern humans," Caldeira said. "Without these tiny marine organisms, the ice sheets may have grown to cover the earth, like in the snowball glaciations of the ancient past, and our ancestors might not have survived."

The researchers used a computer model describing the ocean, atmosphere and land surface to look at how atmospheric carbon dioxide would change as a result of glacier growth. They found that, in the distant past, as glaciers started to grow, the oceans would suck the greenhouse gas -- carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere -- making the Earth colder, promoting an even deeper ice age. When marine plankton with carbonate shells and skeletons are added to the model, ocean chemistry is buffered and glacial growth does not cause the ocean to absorb large amounts of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.

But in Precambrian times (which lasted up until 544 million years ago), marine organisms in the open ocean did not produce carbonate skeletons -- and ancient rocks from the end of the Precambrian geological age indicate that huge glaciers deposited layers of crushed rock debris thousands of meters thick near the equator. If the land was frozen near the equator, then most of the surface of the planet was likely covered in ice, making Earth look like a giant snowball, the researchers said.

Around 200 million years ago, calcium carbonate organisms became critical to helping prevent the earth from freezing over. When the organisms die, their carbonate shells and skeletons settle to the ocean floor, where some dissolve and some are buried in sediments. These deposits help regulate the chemistry of the ocean and the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. However, in a related study published in Nature on Sept. 25, 2003, Caldeira and LLNL physicist Michael Wickett found that unrestrained release of fossil-fuel carbon dioxide to the atmosphere could threaten extinction for these climate-stabilizing marine organisms.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
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To: ThinkPlease
Ever seen one of them curling stadiums they have in Canada? Now that's scary.

ROTFLMAO! :-) Not sure which would be more boring for me. Knitting or curling! LOL!

551 posted on 11/02/2003 8:44:16 AM PST by RadioAstronomer
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To: RadioAstronomer
Curling's pretty boring but the clean and jerk can be fun.
552 posted on 11/02/2003 8:48:04 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: bondserv
My contention is that if there were a large body of Biblically Literate Christians in Europe, there would not be a socialistic government there. There is a clear correlation between believing in a Sovereign Creator and the right to universal freedom.

There is also a clear correlation to the oppression and loss of freedom of a society by a theistic form of government. Belief does not necessarily foster good government. Take a look at the Middle Ages as an example.

Thankfully JR must admit that my perspective on these Science threads is in line with his agenda of holding back the Elitism that is a result of power run amok.

I did not follow you argument here.

The first representation of freedom on this planet was brought about by people who took the Holy Bible seriously regarding our rights deriving from an All Powerful God. No man has the right to revoke rights that are outside of their realm of sovereignty.

Not true. Ancient Greeks wrote about freedom and democracy long before Christianity.

A belief in the Theory of Evolution shatters all of these constructs. No one who has study the Bible to the point that they are literate in both the Old and New Testaments can say that the Bible leaves room for the Theory of Evolution to be true.

How does a belief in evolution shatter the concepts of our constitution? I agree with your second sentence. If you take the bible as a scientific document, it most certainly does not agree with the modern theories of the age and workings of the universe.

Those claiming theistic evolution are ignorant of what the Bible says. Or they have chosen to believe that many passages of the Bible are not true. In my opinion these leave them on very shaky ground in their ability to witness regarding the need for Jesus to Die on the Cross to conquer the death that was brought on by sin. Evolution is a theory of death going back billions of years. The Bible teaches death began with a CHOICE by a Free-Will agent created by God.

I do not claim theistic evolution.

The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ atoned for that Choice of disobedience by Adam. His death was a ransom for sin and its punishment "the wages of sin is death", and His resurrection returns entry into our eternal destiny in heaven with God when we shed this mortal tent as He did on the Cross.

IMHO, the Bible itself undertakes an evolution from beginning to end as the people's understanding of the world around them changed.

553 posted on 11/02/2003 9:03:20 AM PST by RadioAstronomer
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To: VadeRetro
ROFL! :-)
554 posted on 11/02/2003 9:03:57 AM PST by RadioAstronomer
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To: PatrickHenry
multi-spectral, approved-for-delicate-sensibilities placemarker
555 posted on 11/02/2003 9:19:55 AM PST by longshadow
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To: longshadow
low bandwidth placemarker
556 posted on 11/02/2003 9:27:29 AM PST by balrog666 (Humor is a universal language.)
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To: longshadow
"Can't we all get along?" placemarker
557 posted on 11/02/2003 9:36:26 AM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: PatrickHenry
Peace at last placemarker
558 posted on 11/02/2003 9:45:09 AM PST by Ogmios (Since when is 66 senate votes for judicial confirmations constitutional?)
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To: Ogmios
God - science - man never basically changes ...

just calling - believing maturation - technological progress - cultural growth --- evolution ...

shows how this disease has twisted ... cannibalized --- destroyed your mind !



You've been completly brain washed - indoctrinated - social engineered by a liberal satanic conspiracy to think - see like this !

A mental - spiritual aids ... mad science sickness !


Peel back every layer of evil and the core of this monster is evolution ... mind split - shifting --- psychosis !

If you really want to get down to the slime bottom of liberalism ... abortion -
sexual promiscuity - aclu intolerant political bigotry --- it's all a step
after step up from evolution !

This is brave new world order and conservatism on the FR ... is being hi jacked by this
psuedo intellectual - PC nazis (( non pluralists - anti democratic -
monopolists )) --- atheists - new agers !

Aren't these liberal republicans really ... anti conservatives --- moles -
sleepers - plants - satam spawn - spores !
559 posted on 11/02/2003 10:03:08 AM PST by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: Physicist; Jim Robinson
"......In the scientific circles in which I travel, the presence of creationists among the conservative movement is the single most effective intellectual bludgeon against conservatism. It's a license to scoff......"

I second these sentiments.

As expounded upon by David Frum a few years back in DEAD RIGHT, there are different camps in Conservativism, reflecting the different aspects and facets of the philosophy. Unfortunately, even here at Mr. Jefferson's University (Mr. Libertine, Mr. European Enlightenment, Mr. Proto-Libertarian to the rest of you) the very mention of Conservatism to 96.68% of the people I come into contact with immediately brings up the 'scoffing' arguement invoking inbred, toothless, christian snakehandlers, livin'-in-the-holler..........and THATS just from the Americans!

560 posted on 11/02/2003 10:09:47 AM PST by DoctorMichael (Thats my story, and I'm sticking to it.)
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To: DoctorMichael
Aren't these liberal republicans really ...

anti conservatives ---

moles - sleepers - plants - satan spawn - spores !
561 posted on 11/02/2003 10:14:30 AM PST by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: PatrickHenry
"Why cant we be friends?" placemarker
562 posted on 11/02/2003 10:21:32 AM PST by RightWingNilla
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To: xzins
But, I suppose mono-theism is not.

Monotheism is not what?

Monotheism simply means "belief in one god". It is also not, in and of itself, religion (neither is polytheism -- belief in more than one god).
563 posted on 11/02/2003 10:21:39 AM PST by Dimensio (The only thing you feel when you take a human life is recoil. -- Frank "Earl" Jones)
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To: Dimensio
Wicky wiccans ... dabbling in the occult ?

To: Aquinasfan

My oldest son had a rather extraordinary experience just about a year ago.

He was travelling back and forth with a group of other high school kids between our town and another town to practice with a regional singing group. Seven kids from our town were in this group so they would caravan over in two cars.

One night, one of the kids pulled out an amulet and began talking about the powers it possessed and gave to him. Turned out all the other kids had amulets as well. After awhile, the first kid sort of fell into a trance and began chanting and talking. One other kid in the car began to do the same.

Now you have to know my son. Nothing phases him.

Anyway, the first kid had been in a trance for about fifteen minutes -the longest, according to the group, any of them had ever been under a spell of this 'spirit'.

The other kids became very concerned and pulled over. The second car also pulled over. All the kids got out and were watching this one kid in the back seat. They were all freaking out. They couldn't couldn't get this first kid out of the trance and they all started talking about how they needed to get this kid to another kid's house because that kid would know what to do -how to break the spell and stop the channelling.

As my son describes it, at that point he calmly pulled out his rosary, and began praying it. The first kid, speaking in a gutteral voice, grabbed my son by the throat (the finger markings were clearly visible the next day) and shouted, "Shut up, creep, your prayers won't help you now."

My son says at that point he had never in his life felt so at peace. He smiled at the first kid and said, "Liar." Slowly, as my son prayed the rosary, the first kid calmed down and then gradually returned to normal.

The kids got back in their cars and came home.

My son quit the singing group the next day. He also contacted our parish priest, talked about it with him(our priest is convinced this was a true encounter with the demonic) and informed both the priest and his mother and I that he had been thinking and praying for some time about his vocation and now believes he has a calling to the priesthood.

Of the kids there that night, two have graduated and gone into the military. Three swear to my son they have thrown their amulets away and attend their respective churches regularly, now. One is in jail on a drug possession charge. And the first kid, the one in the scariest trance, has moved to California to live with an aunt.

After the ... incident --- I informed all the parents of what their kids were involved in.

I needn't have bothered. All showed little concern. Convinced this was just a bit of teenage knavery.

31 posted on 07/07/2003 12:34 PM PDT by AlguyA

564 posted on 11/02/2003 10:40:49 AM PST by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: Ogmios

To: Chancellor Palpatine

Check out these product reviews of Parker Brothers' Ouija board. A sample:

The board told us it was a good spirit so we were okay. The next day it said strange things and creepy things so we decided to put it away and not use it for a while. It's really fun though but you just have to be careful with it...
This bored is an exelent way to comunicate with the spirts. This bored is not a game but a way to use your sixth sence. Once you start the spirits are forever with you. So make sure that you want to be forever untied with the deadly spirits before you uae it. NOT PLAY! SOme spirits are harmful while some are gentle. Make sure that you are friends with some gentle ones so that if you come in contact with a disturbed one they can drive it out. This is the best thing ever. It's fun and spooky....

ouija board is a wonderfull way to contact spirits. it might not work the first time your using it.. but be patient... there will be an answer soon... please dont play it alone...( to dangerous...) and its always better to burn some protection incense.. cast a circle or even wear a pentalce for protection....if you got the feeling the beeing isnt nice... then send him away by simply saying: thanks you for beeing our guest. now im sending you back to your world........ then wait a little put the board away and start again..... while playing try not to cross your legs because it might block the flow of energy.. its also always good to have a white candle lit. keep unwanted noises away such as tv. doorbell ect. play this game with respect of the otherworld.... always ask for the name first....( for the name in his her last incarnation on earth.. if you dont ask specific it might show you a name wich doesnt make sense in our world......).

God help these lost souls.

33 posted on 07/07/2003 12:40 PM PDT by Aquinasfan

565 posted on 11/02/2003 10:44:09 AM PST by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: bondserv; RadioAstronomer; Piltdown_Woman; CobaltBlue
Er, if I may, I’d like to make a comment on your comment, bondserv. You said:

No one who has study the Bible to the point that they are literate in both the Old and New Testaments can say that the Bible leaves room for the Theory of Evolution to be true.

I would modify your statement slightly as follows:

No one who has studied and believed the Bible to the point that they are literate in both the Old and New Testaments would say that the Bible leaves room for the theory of evolution to be the entire truth of the matter concerning how biological life arose.

(I realize that the evolutionist posters will be quick to mention that the theory doesn’t extend to include either biogenesis or abiogenesis and thus is not the entire truth anyway.)

There are those of us Christians who believe that Adam was the first ensouled man, that the Genesis story is played out in both heaven and earth, that Adam was banished to mortality, that “the death” speaks not just to physical death but the second death as well. (Revelation 20 and 21)

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory? The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. - I Corinthians 15:54-57

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. - Revelation 2:11

You have a testimony based on your interpretation of the Scriptures under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. So do I.

Since our difference does not deny the deity of Christ or the authority of the Word and the Scriptures, I presume the difference is according to God’s will in the matter and thus wish you well. I pray that you will feel the same towards me.

566 posted on 11/02/2003 10:46:44 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
wow ... amazing !

To: Aquinasfan

I was in D.C. one summer and read that there was going to be a "street fair" in Adams-Morgan. I went to it. About 4 blocks were blocked from traffic. There was a double row of tables, with people selling things, etc. At one table were two women with a sign "Palm Reading." I foolishly sat down - and one of the women told me things most of my friends don't know. Profound, deep stuff. Three years after that I became a Christian. Demons know things about us, but the good news is, they can't do anything without Our Lord authorizing it. BTW demons are hierarchical and territorial.


89 posted on 11/02/2003 2:24 AM PST by 185JHP ( Not much quag. Even less mire.)

567 posted on 11/02/2003 10:51:14 AM PST by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: Alamo-Girl; bondserv
I hope this post won't come across as disrespectful, because it is not intended to be.

It seems to me, as a believer, that it is presumptuous to assume that I can ever know *HOW* God did what He did.

Now, here comes the part that may be offensive. Lately, I've been wondering what mental image people have of creation. And for some reason, I keep thinking of that transporter thingie in Star Trek, that beams people down to planets. Seriously, do some people imagine that God beamed Adam and Eve down to Planet Earth? Or, like a magician, waved His hands, and *poof!*, Adam appeared, and later *poof!* Eve appeared, in a microsecond?

The mental image I use sometimes of creation is of a really great pool player (Jackie Gleason as Minnesota Fats) hitting a cluster of tightly bunched up matter with a pool cue, and it then all bangs into each other and spins, and goes hurtling off into space.

My husband likes a Gary Larsen cartoon, where an old man with a beard is pulling a cake shaped like Earth out of an oven, and the tag line is, "something tells me this thing is only half baked."

I mean, we really don't know, do we? Nobody but God was there at the beginning.

Even if He sat us down and explained it in detail, no matter how hard we tried, we probably couldn't understand it anyway.

So, it seems to me that the real argument between us believers is about whether there are more things in Heaven, Earth, and the Universe than are mentioned specifically in the Bible.

There is a side argument between believers and non-believers. My belief is that non-believers who keep arguing are trying to convince themselves, but secretly cannot convince themselves, that God doesn't exist. So they really are asking for enlightenment, and should not be treated disrespectfully.

And there is a third problem, which is that some believers want Genesis to be taught as if it were scientific proof of that which it contains, and it is not.

Oh, and maybe the last issue, which isn't really a problem, which is that some people just love to argue.

Anyway, just my thoughts.
568 posted on 11/02/2003 11:05:47 AM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: CobaltBlue
Is satan in the eye of the beholder ... scary --- whattayahthink !

To: Aquinasfan

Catholics and the New Age: How Good People Are Being Drawn into Jungian Psychology, the Enneagram, and the Age of Aquarius, by Fr. Mitch Pacwa.

I'm kind of a natural skeptic of paranormal stuff and tend to err on the side of disbelief... but that may be because I tend to ignore it out of abject fear although it does fascinate me. I purchased "Beware the Night" by Ralph Sarchie a couple of years ago and started reading it one night when I got home from work. I got to about page 17 and put it away and could never touch it again. I can barely look at it - even the cover! I have Fr. Amorth's two books and I also have Malachi Martin's "Hostage to the Devil" - all of them untouched although I am dying to read them. I do have St. Benedict medals with me at all times.

A few times as a youth I went to tarot card readers... I never felt comfortable with them although I didn't at that time know that Catholics are not supposed to have truck with them. I have to admit that both times the reader (two separate ones) told me things that had happened and things did come to pass - and scared the hell out of me although I didn't know why at the time. I would never, ever go to a tarot card reader again and I tell people to stay away from them.

The closest I have come to seeing evil (I believe) is one time I went to this seminar at my parish with a priest and nun teaching about centering prayer and enneagrams. When I was leaving, the nun turned towards me and held out her hand and I looked into her eyes and the hairs on my body felt like they were standing on end... she had these eyes that you could fall into and get lost - they were eternity is the best way I can describe them... it was weird and very scary. I had to look away and I did not shake her hand. It was one of those moments that you just knew something and I was unnerved for the rest of the day. I can still see her eyes - kind of like the eyes that some cats have.


71 posted on 10/31/2003 7:45 AM PST by american colleen

569 posted on 11/02/2003 11:09:48 AM PST by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: f.Christian
Skill at fortune-telling is the result of intuition, not demons. Some people have incredible intuition, which is a gift from God.

For example, most people can detect lies maybe half the time, no better than chance, but there are some, especially old, seasoned law enforcement officers, who can detect lies as often as 80% of the time.
570 posted on 11/02/2003 11:10:58 AM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: Alamo-Girl; bondserv; RadioAstronomer; CobaltBlue
Since our difference does not deny the deity of Christ or the authority of the Word and the Scriptures, I presume the difference is according to God’s will in the matter and thus wish you well. I pray that you will feel the same towards me.

Very, very well said! The unique gifts each of us have been given in accordance with God's plan for each of our lives are tools to be used in the realization of that plan. Some of us are born to be theologians, scientists and engineers, doctors, lawyers, and even some to be garbage men or politicians. Each is given the skills and understanding required to fulfill those duties.

571 posted on 11/02/2003 11:11:42 AM PST by Aracelis
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To: f.Christian
For the most part, what we call Satan is no more real than Zeus or Horus or Wotan. Baal is a pagan sun god. I don't believe in pagan sun gods, I don't believe they are actual deities or sub-deities or beings.

There is only One God.

Superstitious people used to be afraid of pagan idols. I am not superstitious, nor am I afraid of idols.
572 posted on 11/02/2003 11:15:33 AM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: CobaltBlue
Thank you so much for your wonderful post! It is very thought provoking, CobaltBlue!

My belief is that non-believers who keep arguing are trying to convince themselves, but secretly cannot convince themselves, that God doesn't exist. So they really are asking for enlightenment, and should not be treated disrespectfully.

Oh yes! I couldn't agree with you more. When anyone is seeking, it is a good thing and an opportunity for those who have a testimony to share.

So, it seems to me that the real argument between us believers is about whether there are more things in Heaven, Earth, and the Universe than are mentioned specifically in the Bible.

IMHO, it gets sticky because - concerning spiritual matters - when one wanders beyond the teachings of Christ one may leave God's will behind. It is much better and safer to abide in Him. (John 15:4)

573 posted on 11/02/2003 11:18:32 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Piltdown_Woman
Thank you so very much for your post and the excellent examples! And thank you for the encouragement!

Each is given the skills and understanding required to fulfill those duties.

So true, so very true. We seem to understand and accept this in business and sports, but it is true in spiritual matters as well.

574 posted on 11/02/2003 11:22:29 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: CobaltBlue
I've read some amazing accounts of the occult and their power over people ... like jim jones !

I read one from a guy who had an experience with the teenager jeffrey dahmer ... he was in a seance with him --- when jeffrey was invoking satan the flame on the candle started snapping real hard - loud and he ran out of there !


The Bible does say we will not be tempted above our rank - ability ... if you do see truth - love 1st you will see power and evil too--- the righteous will run to one and flee - eschew the other !

575 posted on 11/02/2003 11:41:57 AM PST by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: Alamo-Girl
when one wanders beyond the teachings of Christ one may leave God's will behind. It is much better and safer to abide in Him.

Just so. But Jesus did not teach about Genesis. He taught about healing the sick, feeding the hungry, comforting the afflicted, turning the other cheek, not stoning women taken in adultery, behaving righteously, and so on.

576 posted on 11/02/2003 11:58:59 AM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: f.Christian
You may be right. Perhaps I have never been tempted because I am too weak. If so, blessed are the weak. ;^)
577 posted on 11/02/2003 12:00:08 PM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: f.Christian
I should clarify that by not being tempted, I mean that I do not believe that I have personally had any contact with Satan, or not much to speak of. I am a sinner, but not due to any great temptations, just human frailty.

I do dream of wrestling with demons, unseen forces that are stronger than I am, but they always leave me when I start reciting the Lord's Prayer.
578 posted on 11/02/2003 12:02:35 PM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: CobaltBlue
Really nothing to make light of ... God wills that none will perish --- be lost or deceived !

I believe evolution is definitely a satanic conspiracy --- war with God - truth !

Look how good christians are demonized - banned ... all through society - media --- intelligensia !


Main Entry: in·tel·li·gent·sia
Pronunciation: in-"te-l&-'jen(t)-sE-&, -'gen(t)-
Function: noun
Etymology: Russian intelligentsiya, from Latin intelligentia intelligence
Date: 1907
: intellectuals who form an artistic, social, or political vanguard or elite

579 posted on 11/02/2003 12:14:33 PM PST by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: f.Christian
I believe evolution is definitely a satanic conspiracy --- war with God - truth !

I've mentioned before the petroleum geologist I once knew who felt the same way, but still used the fossil record in order to hunt for petroleum deposits.

So, regardless of how you believe, it can still be useful in advancing worthwhile knowledge.

580 posted on 11/02/2003 12:20:10 PM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: Dimensio
So, I hear you saying that the "god" concept is not religion.

Wish we could get you on the courts.

581 posted on 11/02/2003 12:20:35 PM PST by xzins (Proud to be Army!)
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To: CobaltBlue
"Petroleum - the archetypal fossil fuel - couldn't have formed from the remains of dead animals and plants, claim US and Russian researchers1. They argue that... petroleum---originated from minerals at extreme temperatures and pressures."
582 posted on 11/02/2003 12:29:15 PM PST by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: RadioAstronomer
There is also a clear correlation to the oppression and loss of freedom of a society by a theistic form of government. Belief does not necessarily foster good government. Take a look at the Middle Ages as an example.

Power hungry men did many hideous things in the name of God during that time, chief among them being taking the Word of God out of the peoples hands. The Reformation of the Church was the resurgence of Biblical Literacy among the people.

I agree with our Founding Fathers that a Theocracy is not the way to go. As Christians we are called to speak the Gospel and reason with those who know not Christ. Persuasion by reasoning is the only way that lines up with the Biblical concept that God wants our love by choice. Forced conversions should always remain illegal and is under our Constitution.

Not true. Ancient Greeks wrote about freedom and democracy long before Christianity.

Without a Soverign Creator the Greeks ideas of freedom were destine to failure. Despots always arise to make new rules. An absolute standard Giver is the key to our success as a nation.

Thankfully JR must admit that my perspective on these Science threads is in line with his agenda of holding back the Elitism that is a result of power run amok.<

I did not follow you argument here.

If we allow despots in power to dictate their views of rights as the Liberals wish to do, we are all at a loss. They have no set of absolute standards, and we are at the mercy of which way the wind blows for those in power.

How does a belief in evolution shatter the concepts of our constitution? I agree with your second sentence. If you take the bible as a scientific document, it most certainly does not agree with the modern theories of the age and workings of the universe.

Those with the biggest guns make the rules, a natural outgrowth of survival of the fittest. Very Unconstitutional. Our Founding documents revolve around individual responsibility to a set of cultural standards derived primarily from the Bible. This is why the Highest office in the land takes an oath of office on the Holy Christian Bible, whatever religion they have been.

I do not claim theistic evolution.

I apologize that I wasn't clear on that point. I intentionally began the statement with the word "Those", indicating that I wasn't sure of your position. My intention was to point out how many scientists who are Christians attempt to reconcile their private lives with their work lives to avoid scoffing or percieved intellectual dishonesty.

IMHO, the Bible itself undertakes an evolution from beginning to end as the people's understanding of the world around them changed.

If you have some time to investigate the prophetic content of some of the oldest documents in the Bible and their amazing accuracy in describing modern Phenomenon in the language of their day, your opinion may change. The descriptive language has changed but the content is completely relevant today. Here are a couple examples.

Isa 40:22
22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Fairly good description of the fabric of space-time.

Ezek 39:12-15
12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man’s bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.

The remnants of a nuclear battle, marking contaminated bones for the hired professionals to clean up. Waiting seven months before beginning the process. Amazing use of an ancient language.

583 posted on 11/02/2003 12:47:02 PM PST by bondserv (Alignment is critical.)
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To: xzins
So, I hear you saying that the "god" concept is not religion. There are probably other atheists who disagree, but I don't see "god belief" as sufficient for meeting the definition of religion (it doesn't help that there are non-theistic religions out there). The definition of "religion" that comes closest to "god belief" also entails "reverence" for a deity, so one could believe in a deity without having a religion if they didn't have reverence for this deity.
584 posted on 11/02/2003 1:05:22 PM PST by Dimensio (The only thing you feel when you take a human life is recoil. -- Frank "Earl" Jones)
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To: CobaltBlue
I do dream of wrestling with demons, unseen forces that are stronger than I am, but they always leave me when I start reciting the Lord's Prayer.

I found that a double-barreled shotgun works, but I've been playing too much DOOM.
585 posted on 11/02/2003 1:06:22 PM PST by Dimensio (The only thing you feel when you take a human life is recoil. -- Frank "Earl" Jones)
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I would like to know what anybody that participates on these threads honestly expects to gain from it. Is there any victory to be had for either side or is it just a sort of constant battle like between the Israelis and Palestinians? Is there a peace on the horizon or is just going to go on like this?

Of course, I won't ask these questions because it would be bound to offend someone on either side.

I just don't get it. One who is new to this can't participate, he'll get shouted down by one side or the other or the thread will get pulled.

In the end it just turns one off to both arguments.

Why is it that important?

I'm talking to myself here. Seriously. This is the way I prefer it. I will not hit the abuse button on myself. I cannot complain about what I say. I cannot upset anyone if I am only talking to me.

Please don't bother replying. It's not welcome...

586 posted on 11/02/2003 1:33:59 PM PST by Prodigal Son
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To: Prodigal Son
Please don't bother replying. It's not welcome...

I like this person's screen name! Not talking to anyone, just myself. No need for response.

587 posted on 11/02/2003 1:53:16 PM PST by bondserv (Alignment is critical.)
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It's not religious in nature. It is more philosophic.
588 posted on 11/02/2003 1:56:16 PM PST by Prodigal Son
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To: Prodigal Son
My interest is peeked. Any further information is desirable.
589 posted on 11/02/2003 2:12:15 PM PST by bondserv (Alignment is critical.)
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To: CobaltBlue
Nobody was saying that Christians are bringing down the Republican party.

From post 381: "You may not think so, but it does. In the scientific circles in which I travel, the presence of creationists among the conservative movement is the single most effective intellectual bludgeon against conservatism. "

Now, since Republican party is supposed to be conservative, then this statement clearly says that Christians (who hold to the truth of Gen 1), are bringing down the republican party, or are a "bludgeon against conservatism".

The terms "creationist" and "Christians" are not mutually exclusive.

Not all who call themselves "Christian" are truly Christian. .Just as there are RINO's, likewise there are Christians in name only. Those who deny much of scripture are questionable Christians.

Many people believe that God created the Universe billions of years ago, and all life in the Universe is both created and evolved.

I agree, many do believe evolution pseudo-science. Some are Christians who buy into the lie, and others are not really Christians.

So, it's not all black or all white. We don't need to be at each others' throats all the time.

True....why not explain that to those on the evo side who consistently mock and belittle Christians who don't buy into the lie?

590 posted on 11/02/2003 2:17:08 PM PST by HalfFull
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To: Virginia-American
You're right. It's not the Christians, it's the anti-evos who are weakening the GOP by grossing out conservatives who happen to agree with standard biology, geology, et

So, I guess you are saying those who hold to Gen 1 are not Christians, but "anti-evos"? Well, we certainly disagree on that one. And, I have no problem with real biology, geology, etc. Where many Christians have a problem is when the evolutionary subset of these disciplines are assumed fact without real evidence.

591 posted on 11/02/2003 2:18:11 PM PST by HalfFull
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To: Ichneumon
[HalfFull:] That Christians are bringing down the republican party is a myth.
[Ich:] Correct. But then, I've not seen anyone make that claim here, either.
[HalfFull:] Bull...that assertion has been made on this very thread

[Ich]I haven't seen any, perhaps we're reading them differently. Could you point out one that you think is an example of what you describe?

See posts 338, and 448....those posts clearly make that claim(for Christians who hold to Gen 1)

What about evolution do you consider a "lie"?

macro-evolution

You don't see these as attacks on Freepers who accept evolution?

Yes...i have seen such attacks....but the vast majority have been from the evo side of the debate. Until the management FAIRLY enforces the rules, then this will never change. In fact, after this post i probably will stop posting....who needs this "debate"? the management has been successful in driving off some good people. Before long all that will be left are soft conservatives and wacko's.

++++++++++

Meanwhile, one of the few posters who wanted to talk science gets banned. -Me

I disagree that he "wanted to talk science". Instead, he wanted to denigrate science, most often by posting unsupported (and unsupportable) claims which were easily refuted, then avoiding attempts to get him to either support or retract them.

We disagree....Gore3000 was continually attacked when his arguments could NOT be refuted. A prime example is in genetics...a huge problem for the idea of macro-evolution. Ignoring the problem will not make it go away. But, as has recently been seen, banning the Christian will make it easier to "win" the argument.

These threads won't last long when you are debating among yourselves.

592 posted on 11/02/2003 2:24:57 PM PST by HalfFull
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To: bondserv
It's just a name. It describes my life overall. Sort of like- I'm back from afar. But Prodigal Son also has negative connotations. A person that would turn his back on things and go away is likely to do so again. A person like Prodigal Son has no true home. He wasn't happy where he started and he wasn't happy where he went. Thus he left, he came back, he will leave again.

If I were to be buried (which I will not be), you can write on my tombstone "Wasn't Impressed". I'm not. I wasn't as a child. I don't look to suddenly be in the future.

This world could easily be so much better. That it is not is an indictment. On who? On what? Why does it matter? It's not. That's what matters to me. We can't even get people to not talk in the movie theaters. And you know what? That one thing is what I use to judge all humanity. Forget the wars, the suffering, the human triumphs. We can put a man on the moon but we can't get everybody to shut up when the movie is playing the cinema even though everybody knows it's rude to chat during the film.

If people cannot extend the simple courtesy to their fellow man to keep their trap shut during the 2 hours of a film, why should I expect more from them outside the cinema? Well, the simple answer is- I don't.

I don't believe man is a rational being. There is no evidence for such. There is ample evidence to believe I am a member of a species that is inherently irrational but given to brief moments of sanity. This is worse than being 100% irrational all the time. It is like being sighted for 10 minutes per day and blind the rest of the time.

It is difficult to have a discussion with anyone. Within two minutes, factions form, infighting ensues and people become more interested in being victorious than with the truth itself. I am just as guilty of this as anyone and because of this I am even less impressed with the world than I would be if I were on a "holier than thou" trip. My own guilt damns the world further in my eyes.

At any rate, I wouldn't try to read to much into my screen name. It describes me, but not in the way some would at first think.

I would just like to know what the point of these threads are but will not ask because I will not get an honest answer- from anyone. To simply ask the question is to get stereotyped. To simply ask any number of questions is to get placed into a ghetto of thought. I won't bother.

593 posted on 11/02/2003 2:42:16 PM PST by Prodigal Son
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To: general_re
Just needed somebody to harass as a placemarker. ;-)
594 posted on 11/02/2003 2:52:56 PM PST by scripter (Thousands have left the homosexual lifestyle)
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To: HalfFull
All of his arguments were soundly refuted and defeated, each and every time.

He chose to continue to bring those refuted arguments into new threads and have them refuted again.

Because you choose to ignore evidence, does not mean that the evidence ceases to exist.

He was refuted again, and again, and again, and he would get angry, beligerent, and downright nasty when people told him he was wrong.

He did not wish to discuss science, he wished to discuss what he wished was science, there is a difference.

And your arrogance about how only true christians believe Genesis is not only inaccurate, it is downright laughable, you just booted out about 95% of the Christian faith, and have called them In name only Christians. That is not what I would call very tolerant.

595 posted on 11/02/2003 2:54:40 PM PST by Ogmios (Since when is 66 senate votes for judicial confirmations constitutional?)
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To: Ogmios
I agree with your points in the prior post, but think that calling something "downright laughable" is needlessly confrontational.
596 posted on 11/02/2003 3:05:33 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Ichneumon; HalfFull
Agreed,

And your arrogance about how only true christians believe Genesis is not only inaccurate, it is downright laughable, you just booted out about 95% of the Christian faith, and have called them In name only Christians. That is not what I would call very tolerant.


Change it to

And your arrogance about how only true christians believe Genesis is inaccurate, you just booted out about 95% of the Christian faith, and have called them In name only Christians. That is not what I would call very tolerant.

It was confrontational, hopefully that will make it less confrontational.
597 posted on 11/02/2003 3:16:49 PM PST by Ogmios (Since when is 66 senate votes for judicial confirmations constitutional?)
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To: Ogmios; Jim Robinson
And your arrogance about how only true christians believe Genesis is not only inaccurate, it is downright laughable, you just booted out about 95% of the Christian faith

Well, banned ARIC2000...consider this my last post to you. I do this in honor of another banned poster (gore3000) who I know will not sneak back onto FR after being banned. You may have fooled the management, but not those of us who have put up with your rants for a year or so.

Now to your post: First, please provide your source that %95 of Christians believe evolution.

Second, show me where i said " only true christians believe Genesis". good luck.

598 posted on 11/02/2003 3:44:55 PM PST by HalfFull
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To: HalfFull
"Not all who call themselves "Christian" are truly Christian. .Just as there are RINO's, likewise there are Christians in name only. Those who deny much of scripture are questionable Christians.

Indeed.

"...evolution pseudo-science. Some are Christians who buy into the lie, and others are not really Christians...explain that to those on the evo side who consistently mock and belittle Christians who don't buy into the lie?

Your claims don't stand the test of logic. The only Christians being mocked and belittled are those that acknowledge the fact that God is logical and is truthful. The science is sound and it does not contradict what was written. The only things science contradicts is what you claim is the meaning of what was written.

599 posted on 11/02/2003 3:47:28 PM PST by spunkets
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To: HalfFull
Not all who call themselves "Christian" are truly Christian. .Just as there are RINO's, likewise there are Christians in name only. Those who deny much of scripture are questionable Christians.

Anything else you wish me to find for you?

If you did not mean Genesis, then I apologize, but the fact remains, that you have stated that those who believe like you do are in fact Christians and those that do not believe like you do are not, and I find that offensive.
600 posted on 11/02/2003 3:49:04 PM PST by Ogmios (Since when is 66 senate votes for judicial confirmations constitutional?)
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