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Lutherans in Chandler (AZ) offer church to Muslims
AZ Republic ^ | Edythe Jensen

Posted on 10/31/2003 10:31:18 AM PST by hsmomx3

Edited on 05/07/2004 5:21:45 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

CHANDLER - Holy Trinity Lutheran Church quietly has shared its sanctuary with Muslims for more than a year. Saturday it will be the site of a Ramadan dinner to raise money for construction of a mosque.

"We are thankful for them," Muslim Arif Kazmi said of the Lutherans. "They are very nice people; we are knowing more about each other."


(Excerpt) Read more at azcentral.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; US: Arizona
KEYWORDS: az; christians; lutherans; muslims
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1 posted on 10/31/2003 10:31:19 AM PST by hsmomx3
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To: hsmomx3
That's all really nice and all.

But what I want to know is, has this group of muslims denounced terrorism? Do they denounce the Oldest Terrorist, Yasser Arafat?

Would they accept the offer of the use of a Jewish building?

If so, then, welcome to America.

2 posted on 10/31/2003 10:37:40 AM PST by narby
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To: hsmomx3
Holy Trinity is an ELCA Lutheran church, so don't be surprised if they rent the building out to the local GLAAD contingent when the Muslims aren't busy with it.

(ELCA: Egregiously Liberal Christian Apostates)

3 posted on 10/31/2003 10:40:35 AM PST by niteowl77 (If you haven't prayed for our troops, please start; if you stopped, then do some catching up.)
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To: hsmomx3
"We are thankful for them," Muslim Arif Kazmi said of the Lutherans. "We will kill them last."
4 posted on 10/31/2003 10:44:15 AM PST by Kenton
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To: hsmomx3
"We questioned what does it mean for us? What will people think of it?" he said. "We decided that hospitality is an important thing to promote. We try to foster a feeling that this is community space, God's space."

Did they ever ask what God would want. Hospitality is nice, but I can't see turning a place that is dedicated to God over to a religion that denies His Son.

5 posted on 10/31/2003 10:45:03 AM PST by DannyTN (Note left on my door by a pack of neighborhood dogs.)
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To: Kenton
I think these Lutherans know that if they just submit to islam, they reduce their chances of being killed at all.
6 posted on 10/31/2003 10:45:19 AM PST by FITZ
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To: edskid
(ELCA: Egregiously Liberal Christian Apostates)

Thanks, I've been trying to find a suitable acronym for some time. ;-D

Seems that the LCMS is attempting to "stay on track" for the time being.

7 posted on 10/31/2003 10:46:24 AM PST by GingisK
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To: hsmomx3
Muslims are nothing if not grateful
8 posted on 10/31/2003 10:55:55 AM PST by aynrandfreak
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To: GingisK
The MO Synod will do fine as long as they demand accountability from their leadership. The ELCA had deferred to the perfumed princes in the Twin Cities for so long that they didn't realize it was out of control until it was too late. Local pastors were unwilling to blow the whistle, and thus the sheep have "done got sheared."
9 posted on 10/31/2003 11:05:43 AM PST by niteowl77 (If you haven't prayed for our troops, please start; if you stopped, then do some catching up.)
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To: All
Additional note: some of the hate literature from "official" ELCA peace and love organizations involved in the Middle East make Yasser Arafat sound moderate. That they suck up to Islam is not surprising; that they still have congregations is surprising.
10 posted on 10/31/2003 11:10:49 AM PST by niteowl77 (If you haven't prayed for our troops, please start; if you stopped, then do some catching up.)
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To: FITZ
Either that, or the Lutherans just found out that their gift building was built over a hazardous waste dump.

Hey, it took me more than half a century to become so cynical. And being a FReeper provided me with a boost that best could be described as a quantum leap.

Thanks to all... 8~)

11 posted on 10/31/2003 11:18:21 AM PST by tracer
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To: hsmomx3
This wasn't a barf alert?
12 posted on 10/31/2003 11:31:36 AM PST by Digger
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To: DannyTN
"We decided that hospitality is...important..."

That's what the local Holiday Inn is for. Letting these heathens in to worship their false god defiles this church. Can you imagine them allowing Christians to share space in their new mosque?
13 posted on 10/31/2003 11:34:02 AM PST by beelzepug ("As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly!!!")
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To: hsmomx3
Maybe they've been smoking Jimson weed.
14 posted on 10/31/2003 11:34:06 AM PST by sheik yerbouty
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To: hsmomx3
I suppose if you feed the alligator, he is going to wait until last to eat you?
15 posted on 10/31/2003 11:45:07 AM PST by Gritty
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To: narby
"Do they denounce the Oldest Terrorist, Yasser Arafat?"

No, that would be the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) himself.
16 posted on 10/31/2003 11:49:18 AM PST by fishtank
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To: beelzepug
If it's an ELCA church, the building was defiled a long time ago.

Ichabod!
17 posted on 10/31/2003 11:50:28 AM PST by fishtank
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To: hsmomx3
So you make God share space with Allah, sad...
18 posted on 10/31/2003 11:52:01 AM PST by N3WBI3
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To: edskid
The MO Synod will do fine as long as they demand accountability from their leadership. The ELCA had deferred to the perfumed princes in the Twin Cities for so long that they didn't realize it was out of control until it was too late. Local pastors were unwilling to blow the whistle, and thus the sheep have "done got sheared."

There are whole congregations of ELCA breaking away. Some of my family is involved in such an undertaking. There's another synod forming. One name is Word Alone but there are other names, too. I don't really understand it all.

There are complications such as property and pastors' pensions.

Me? I saw the light and got out of ELCA and went to Mo. Synod 12 years ago.

19 posted on 10/31/2003 11:56:26 AM PST by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: N3WBI3
So you make God share space with Allah

Both Christians and Muslims worship the same God.

From the Catholic Church Catechism:

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

20 posted on 10/31/2003 12:02:12 PM PST by george wythe
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To: george wythe
Both Christians and Muslims worship the same God.

John 4:24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth." (Jesus Speaking)

John 14:6-7 "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through me. If you had known me, you would have known My Father also.'"

John 1:18 "No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."

(John 3:16) "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."

The same God?

21 posted on 10/31/2003 1:22:56 PM PST by nonsporting
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To: hsmomx3
["We are very community-minded and open to dialog," he said.]

loosely translated:

"Business is business."
22 posted on 10/31/2003 1:25:14 PM PST by Gman
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To: nonsporting
The same God?

Yes.

The Scriptures you quoted actually prove the point.

FYI, the Bible is part of the sacred writings of Muslims.

Just because the Muslims have an additional book, like the Mormons, does not mean that they reject the Bible.

23 posted on 10/31/2003 1:28:33 PM PST by george wythe
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To: hsmomx3
dumb and dumber
24 posted on 10/31/2003 1:29:21 PM PST by pointsal
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To: george wythe
...does not mean that they reject the Bible...

If they reject Jesus as part of the Triune God, they reject the Bible. They do, in fact, regard Jesus as "a prophet", but not God. My conclusion is that Christians and Muslims share the same God only as a point of propaganda.

25 posted on 10/31/2003 1:57:10 PM PST by GingisK
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To: GingisK
Thank you for sharing your opinion.

I agree with the Catholic Church Catechism, Muslims and Christians worship the same God.

26 posted on 10/31/2003 1:59:13 PM PST by george wythe
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To: beelzepug
"Can you imagine them allowing Christians to share space in their new mosque? "

No, but then I can't imagine Christians wanting to worship in a mosque either, except to pray for the lost souls that meet there.

27 posted on 10/31/2003 2:24:07 PM PST by DannyTN (Note left on my door by a pack of neighborhood dogs.)
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To: george wythe
The God of Abraham, the God of the Jews and Christians doesn't require people to stand out on their roofs and worship the moon rising or fast during ramadan --- islam is a moon based religion, and mohammed's purpose was to lead people who were already Christian or Jewish away from God and back to the ancient arab religion that worshiped the moon god. The crescent moon is the symbol for islam --- the God of Abraham never had any moon symbolizing Him.
28 posted on 10/31/2003 3:18:03 PM PST by FITZ
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To: DannyTN
Did they ever ask what God would want.

Probably prayed, and looked at the bible.

Hospitality is nice, but I can't see turning a place that is dedicated to God over to a religion that denies His Son.

A church isn't a building. It's the people.

29 posted on 10/31/2003 3:23:28 PM PST by Protagoras (Hating Democrats doesn't make you a conservative.)
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To: george wythe
"Both Christians and Muslims worship the same God."

Really?

I've also heard that Islam is a religion of peace.

Do you believe that, too?

30 posted on 10/31/2003 3:28:20 PM PST by fishtank
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To: Protagoras
"Probably prayed, and looked at the bible."

Perhaps, but I don't remember anything in the bible telling people to provide support for false religions. I agree wholeheartedly that they should show the muslims love. But it is in support of their religion where I draw the line.

In fact, the following scripture appears to say the same also.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

31 posted on 10/31/2003 4:10:34 PM PST by DannyTN (Note left on my door by a pack of neighborhood dogs.)
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To: george wythe
"Just because the Muslims have an additional book, like the Mormons, does not mean that they reject the Bible."

True, but just because their additional book simulateously tells them that the prior scriptures are true and that Jews should look to their scriptures and Christians to theirs. But then it goes on to contracdict some of the most important parts of those scriptures and calls them corrupt.

So just because their additional book tells them to accept the prior scriptures, doesn't mean they do. And doesn't mean they ever spend time studying them.

32 posted on 10/31/2003 4:18:00 PM PST by DannyTN (Note left on my door by a pack of neighborhood dogs.)
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To: george wythe
"I agree with the Catholic Church Catechism, Muslims and Christians worship the same God."

Even if they do worship the same God, their rejection of the Son of God makes their religion evil. That rejection will lead Islam's followers to destruction.

33 posted on 10/31/2003 4:20:14 PM PST by DannyTN (Note left on my door by a pack of neighborhood dogs.)
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To: hsmomx3
I am an ELCA member, who is Evangelical Catholic/Evangelical Orthodox and totally disagrees with the revisionist agenda being pushed by the ELCA's mis-leaders. (I have posted about that on FR.)

Our ELCA congregation provides space in our building for a Jewish congregation on Saturday morning and another Christian congregation on Sunday afternoon after we are finshed with our services and Sunday School. That is all well and good.

However, most muslim congregations in the US are run by Wahhabis and other islamists (also known as islamofascists), and most US mosque buildings are financed by islamist Middle East donors. The same donors usuallly provide the mosque with an islamist imam, if they do not already have one. (Moderate muslims are my source on this).

The imams and other mosque officials go on to lie about being "the religion of peace", and collect as many Christian and Jewish dupes and shills in the community as they can who parrot that line. However, their REAL goals are conversion of Christians, Jews, and other Americans to islam, financing islamist activities (including foreign jihads and "jihad in America"), and working toward an islamofascist America!!!

I hope that this ELCA congregation in Chandler, Arizona, has checked out their muslim guests VERY WELL. The ELCA--including some at the highest levels of our church body--is a PRIME SOURCE for the kind of islamist dupes and shills who are (often unwittingly) paving the way for the islamization of America!!!!
34 posted on 11/01/2003 1:24:55 PM PST by Honorary Serb
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To: FITZ
Good comments, FITZ.

The God's of Christianity and Islam are indeed different.

The Christian God is a personal God with which one can have a personal relationship.

The God of Islam is not a personal god.

And he does not have a son. And as Islam denies Jesus being the Son of God and says he really did not die on the cross, there is no reconciliation.

But Islam would have us believe otherwise although their own writings prove them wrong.
35 posted on 11/01/2003 1:51:00 PM PST by Syncro
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To: hsmomx3
Without the use of the Lutheran facility, the Muslims would have had to pay high
commercial rental rates for worship space, further delaying mosque construction.


Why pay high commercial rates when a band of liberal nutburgers will give you
a facility...and you can send the saved $$$ to Muslim "charities"...

OK, I'm being cynical.
And realistic, given the track record...
36 posted on 11/01/2003 1:55:09 PM PST by VOA
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To: hsmomx3
CHANDLER - Holy Trinity Lutheran Church quietly has shared its sanctuary with Muslims for more than a year. Saturday it will be the site of a Ramadan dinner to raise money for construction of a mosque.

That temple / church is now defiled ... and the muslims will try to steal it in enough time.

37 posted on 11/01/2003 2:44:52 PM PST by Centurion2000 (Virtue untested is innocence)
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To: george wythe
FYI, the Bible is part of the sacred writings of Muslims.

Bullshit ..... the koran and the hadish are their only holy books .... and both steal from the Bible.

38 posted on 11/01/2003 2:49:19 PM PST by Centurion2000 (Virtue untested is innocence)
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To: george wythe
Just because the Muslims have an additional book, like the Mormons, does not mean
that they reject the Bible.


Yes...but...
there is one reason the Muslims make nervous and Mormons don't.
The Mormons don't have a passage like "Kill the Christians and the Jews wherever
you may find them" in their sacred texts.

Well, at least I hope they don't...
39 posted on 11/01/2003 3:00:31 PM PST by VOA
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To: george wythe
Muslims and Christians worship the same God

Then why are Muslims ordered to kill those who are not of their faith and Christians must refrain from killing? Seems like if the same God were worshiped the rules would be the same.

40 posted on 11/02/2003 2:44:29 PM PST by GingisK
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To: DannyTN
their additional book simulateously tells them that the prior scriptures are true and that Jews should look to their scriptures and Christians to theirs. But then it goes on to contracdict some of the most important parts of those scriptures and calls them corrupt.

That has been experience also when talking to Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientist, etc.

When the Scriptures disagree with their theology, they pull out the "Scriptures are corrupt in that particular verse" game.

Even most Protestants play a similar game by rejecting some of the 73 books of the Bible accepted by Catholic and Orthodox Christians.

Singling out the Muslims for playing the cafeteria game with the Bible is not very convincing.

The Catholic Church, therefore, recognizes that Protestants, Jews, and Muslims worship the same God as Catholic and Orthodox Christians.

I agree with the Catholic Church Catechism.

41 posted on 11/03/2003 10:55:58 AM PST by george wythe
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To: FITZ
doesn't require people to stand out on their roofs and worship the moon rising

Ummm....how do we decide when to celebrate Easter?

42 posted on 11/03/2003 11:02:30 AM PST by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: george wythe
"Even most Protestants play a similar game by rejecting some of the 73 books of the Bible accepted by Catholic and Orthodox Christians. "

I don't think this is in the same league. Prior to "canonization" of New Testament scriptures by either Protestants or Catholics, some of the books studied were thought to be good but not at the same level of inspiration as the apostolic works.

Protestants merely canonized the works that were clearly apostolic in origin. That the Catholics later canonized the apocrapha, including some books that were not apostolic or whose origins were in doubt, should not be construed as Protestants picking and choosing to suit themselves.

43 posted on 11/03/2003 11:07:29 AM PST by DannyTN (Note left on my door by a pack of neighborhood dogs.)
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To: DannyTN
I strongly disagree with your Protestant version of Church history, but I still think that you worship the same God as me.

Protestants, Muslims, Jews, Catholic and Orthodox Christian worship the same God.

44 posted on 11/03/2003 11:18:10 AM PST by george wythe
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To: george wythe
Go to Saudi Arabia (or any other Muslim country for that matter) and proclaim; "God is a Spirit!".

See how fast they chop your head off.

Proclaim "God has a Son, Jesus Christ!" and they might behead your family too.
45 posted on 11/03/2003 11:22:17 AM PST by Guillermo (Go 'Dawgs, Sic 'Em!)
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To: Guillermo
I'm not here to defend the peculiar theology of religions not in communion with the Roman Catholic Church.

I just posted the official Catholic position.

Since Protestants and Catholic have never agreed on certain theological issues for centuries, there is nothing I can say to convince you.

You can always demonize any religion by selecting quoting and biased reporting of its beliefs.

46 posted on 11/03/2003 11:34:53 AM PST by george wythe
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To: george wythe
Demonizing? lol, settle down.

Listen, If I claim a stone is the same God as the Chrisitan God, it does not make it so.
47 posted on 11/03/2003 11:36:19 AM PST by Guillermo (Go 'Dawgs, Sic 'Em!)
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To: edskid
Holy Trinity is an ELCA Lutheran church,

I knew it couldn't have been Missouri Synod, they are pretty solid.

48 posted on 11/03/2003 11:39:38 AM PST by NeoCaveman (Ohio, vote no on Issue 1)
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To: george wythe
The same God? Yes.

The quotes clearly show that the truth claims made by Jesus declare the God of the Bible to be unique and cannot be confused with the Muslim Allah, inspite of any ecumenical desire to equate the two. Jesus said "...God must be worship'd in spirit and in truth." Truth. If the worship is not "in truth", then it's a different object of worship.

What is in a name? We use the English word for God "God", not the Greek work "Theos" or the Latin "Deus" or Hebrew "Jehovah". Yet, all these different words refer to the same object, God. In contrast the Mormons refer to god using the same word "god", but it is clear that they are refering to a different object, one who produced a spirit child "Jesus" as well as his spirit brother "Lucifer". In their theology God the father and Jesus are not the same God but different gods.

Muslim's reject that Jesus is God. (John 1) How can Muslims worship God when they deny Him?

49 posted on 11/03/2003 1:17:28 PM PST by nonsporting
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To: nonsporting
Debates among Christians about the Trinity are not new. When the Arians controlled the Christian Church, the Trinity was considered apostate.

Eventually, the Arians lost control of the Church, and Trinitarians declared the Arians to be the apostates.

Since Christians cannot agree to how many books are in the Bible, it's not surprising that they also disagree about the Trinity.

Today, Arians, Unitarians, and several American non-trinitarian sects are a minority among the Christian community.

One more time, I'm not here to defend the quirky theology of religions not in communion with the Roman Catholic Church.

I have posted the official Catholic position, and I stand by it: both Christians and Muslims worship the same God.

If you want to argue theological quirks, you can go to the religion forum on this website. There are plenty of interesting threads there.

50 posted on 11/03/2003 1:38:03 PM PST by george wythe
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