Historical Perspective: Intelligence and the 1944 Election [Title Not in Original]

U.S.S. Clueless ^ | 11/5/03 | Den Beste

[TastyManatees]

A terrific piece by Den Beste illustrates how previous generations of opposition presidential candidates have placed country before party when it came to wartime intelligence. Clearly, Beste put a lot of work into this and deserves credit for putting things into clear historical perspective.

I cannot recommend this piece enough. Please read it and remember it.

Tasty Manatees

[TastyManatees]

I'm on a roll. Moderator, can you please pull the tags out of the title? My apologies, I must still be asleep.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

Interesting piece.

[JohnGalt]

Only in 1944, that country was the Soviet Union, not the United States.

[jamaksin]

Thank you for the timely reminder.

On the topic of the Striking Force (nee Kido Butai) maintaining strict radio silence (i.e., all frequencies at all times) ... a myth known then and known now.

On the topic of code breaking of the Japanese Navy's operational code (viz., Naval Code D, five-numeral code, five-digit code, ... or similar; the terminology and its variants of JN25 being a red-herring in 1941), it might be seen as odd that none of the materials on this effort have ever been released ... not from the Americans, nor the British, nor the Dutch, ... while a plethora of German ENGIMA/ULTRA documents have been so released, beginning in in the 1970's ... very curious that.

Even more curious ... not even all of the intercepted Japanese diplomatic traffic (aka PURPLE/MAGIC) has been released ... another oddity.

[LS]

The whole "code-breaking/FDR conspiracy" overlooks the fact that Pearl should have been on alert the minute a Japanese midget sub was sunk . . . but was not. Moreover, the "war alert" message had already been received a couple of days earlier by Kimmel and Short, who had NO torpedo nets up; NO long-range recon patrols out; NO air-recon (they had some b-17s there); and didn't keep the radar on at all times. The neglect of those commanders doomed the 7th fleet, not some mysterious codes that we "intercepted."

BTW, "Purple" was the diplomatic code, and everyone knew war was coming. Most thought the "Purple" intercept meant an immiment attack on Singapore. There is a great discussion of this by the code-breakers themselves, the vets, at the Naval History sites. I am regularly in touch with several of these aging vets. One of the more interesting new developments is a radio tracking of FALSE Japanese signals sent out that indicated the fleet was moving south, toward Singapore.

[TastyManatees]

You hit the nail on the head. Even in 1944, there were a lot of people who believed that our intelligence apparatus could not have failed so miserably, and that Roosevelt had to have known about the Pearl Harbor attack.

However, whether he did or didn't, no matter how reasonable an inquiry would have been, Americans at the time rightly recognized that it didn't matter. The country was at war with a determined enemy and political investigations into the matter would only aid that enemy in dividing Americans, draining support for the effort, and killing our servicemen.

Jay Rockefeller has a hard time with that concept.

Tasty Manatees

[jamaksin]

Agreed ... especially on Senator Rockefeller.

[I'd add, however, that the public vindication of Admiral Kimmel and General Short are ... far too long overdue. As that, ispo facto, means that the United States government to forced to say that it has lied ... as it has knowingly in the past ... so be it.]

[jamaksin]

Larry,

So glad to hear from you again ... and that you are still out there in America's heartland.

I wonder why, when FDR makes that well-known comment ... "This means war." ... in the present of Lt. Schulz and Harry "the Hop" Hopkins ... that a FLASH IMMEDIATE message was not quickly sent to all commands. Very curious that ... just as Rochefort's comments in the Hewitt Inquiry regarding radio deception ... very odd, that.

I'd suggest that you might want to review Gannon's "Pearl Harbor Betrayed" from 2001 - brush up on what resources were available at Pearl Harbor ... also a certain letter on page 282 of that text may be worth a quick scan.

Again, glad that you are back.

[LS]

Ahhh, the discredited Joseph. Tell me, how did those exchanges with the Pearl veterans go? I understand from them you got torched. They don't really appreciate being thought of as incompetent or treasonous, by the way.

[jamaksin]

Larry,

An exchange ... nonesuch from/to this quarter. But many thanks for the concern ...

Oh, those questions, still stand.

[LS]

You forget the real questions, and there are only two. All the rest are smokescreens. Care to answer them now?

Were the codebreakers and cryptologists---the vets who are still alive---traitors who received and interpreted material and, in your words, "covered up" for FDR?

Or were they incompetent and didn't realize what they had?

Please answer this question. You ducked it in the other exchange. It's real simple. Which is it?

[jamaksin]

Larry,

Are you are not neglecting the sequence of questions ... recall that mine were first ...

That AKAGI message would be a good start ... Please advise.

And recall - even dialectically, also whose oath and whose honor?

[GreenLanternCorps]

Pearl Harbor should have been on alert and in some respects was, however you should remember, that:

-Pearl at the time was deemed to shallow for torpedoes

-Both Kimmel and Short were short on long range patrol aircraft. They did not have enough planes and crews to maintain a 24/7 patrol in a 180 degree radius let alone a 360 degree radius.

- The general consensus was a Japanese move on the Dutch East Indies, the Philippines, and Singapore/Malaya, The US was engaged in a major build up in the Philippines to prepare for this eventuality.

On December 7th/8th (the international date line really can confuse things!) 1941 the Japanese:

Attacked Pearl Harbor

Invaded Thailand from French Indo-China

Bombed Hong Kong

Seized Guam

Attacked Wake Island

Bombed the Philippines

Invaded Malaya

Pearl Harbor or no Pearl Harbor, Japan wanted war in 1941.

[LS]

Oh, I agree. But remember, DESPITE the shallowness of Pearl, nets were deemed SOP for the navy in hostile waters, and in that situation, Pearl was hostile.

I certainly agree---this is the point of my post---that EVERYONE, including all the codebreakers, thought that the real J. offensive was south. Modern Americans do not grasp the phenomenal ambitious nature of the Japanese offensive in the Pacific, essentially striking three major targets simultaneously as you point out.

My only point was that commanders on a "war footing," which K. and S. should have been, would have found a way to get recon aircraft up and to at least show some FREAKING concern.

[LS]

I won't answer your fraudulent questions about details---which have been blasted out of the water by the actual VETS themselves at the codebreaking sites---until you answer my very simple question that goes to your motivation:

Were the codebreakers traitors? Or were they incompetent? Which is your position?

[jamaksin]

Thank you for your comments here - it is appreciated that an awareness and interest in this topic persists.

Also, especially thanks for the prescient remarks regarding torpedeos. The US Navy was fully aware of the success at Taranto and decided that torpedeos nets were not urgently needed at Pearl Harbor ...

On wanted war versus say national survival because of the total oil embargo, losses in China, ... many facets of that aspect to consider.

Again, many thanks.

[jamaksin]

Larry,

Just how is a question regarding the AKAGI message "fraudulent?"

To repeat, the question, Why have none of the source materials used to develop this COMSUM14 of Novemebr 30, 1941 " ... AKAGI heard on tactical circuits ..." even after a myriad of FOIA requests ... ever been released?

How, specifically, how is that a "fraudulent" question? Many thanks here.

[headsonpikes]

Thanks for posting.

[Doctor Stochastic]

One of the recent issues (maybe the fall issue) of Cryptologia has a long article debunking the idea that the US allowed Pearl Harbor to happen. The Cryptologia articles has lots of interviews and notes from the actual participants. (Churchill didn't "allow" Coventry to be bombed either.)