Universal Health Care! Are Canadians Stupid?

geocities.com ^ | 2000 | Jack Stewart

[joseph_hardesty]

http://www.geocities.com/stewjackmail/pdf/uhc-canus.pdf

Universal Health Care!

Are Canadians Stupid?

by Jack Stewart, January 2000

(full permission for nonprofit distribution)

IT’S YOUR MONEY!

Government spending for health care in Canada consumes 6.9 percent of the economy (GDP). However, government spending for health care in the United States consumes only 6.6 percent of the economy. *[1]

Before deciding that the U.S. has done a slightly better job of reining in "big government" than Canada, we should examine what each country gets for its money!

1. Government health spending includes costs for a Public Health Service in both countries.

2. In the United States, government health spending also pays for health insurance that primarily covers individual hospital and doctor costs with three government programs; Medicare, Medicaid, and military health benefits. These three programs provide health care through public health spending to about 30% of our population. *[2]

3. In Canada, government health spending also pays for health insurance that primarily covers individual hospital and doctor costs. However, Canada has only one government health insurance program called Universal Health Care. This government program provides health care through public health spending to essentially 100% of the population. *[3] Before I respond to people who are thinking, "What's the catch?" or "You can't get something for nothing.": I want to deal with the people who didn't even understand what I just said. What I just said was, "In Canada government health programs provide health insurance to 100 percent of their population at only a slightly greater economic cost, than government health programs in the United States, but the U.S. programs only insure about 30 percent of our population!"

I can make a slightly simpler statement. Because Canadian Universal Health Care, unlike Medicare in the United States, has; no deductibles, no coinsurance, and only Alberta and British Columbia charge premiums, the following statement is probably accurate. *[4]

Canada, insures 100% of its population using a smaller percentage of its economic resources, than the United States uses to insure 30% of its population!

WHAT'S THE CATCH?

Some people may think that the catch is that the Canadian Universal Health Care system supplies poor service. I will try to provide some significant information dealing with the quality of the Canadian health care system in this section.

Public Opinion

I have heard that Rush Limbaugh has said that "Many Canadians prefer our health care system to theirs." He apparently thought that Canadians' opinions were worth something. I think that a Gallup poll, published in "The Toronto Star" on September 13, 1993, can provide a more accurate understanding of Canadian opinion. 96% of Canadians prefer their own health care system. 2% of Canadians have no opinion.

2% of Canadians prefer the U.S. health care system. While I agree that, since there are 27 million Canadians, even 2% could be considered "many" Canadians, I think the vaster numbers represented by 96% are more significant!

Life Expectancy at Birth

The vital statistic called, “life expectancy at birth," is not a prediction of the future! It is simply the average age of death, for any specific year, after adjusting for age distribution. Adjusting for age distribution simplifies comparisons between different nations, and different years within the same nation. *[5]

Please remember that age distribution is only one of many factors, in addition to health care, that influences life expectancy, such as environment, life style, public safety, and maybe genetics.

Life Expectancy at Birth

United States Canada

1991 75.50 yrs 77.95 yrs

1995 75.79 78.56

1998 76.13 79.16

These years appear to be representative. If you want more, my source was the internet, U.S. Bureau of the Census, "International Data Base". Safety of Surgery and Medical Care Surgery and medical care may be safer in Canada than in the United States. According to data collected by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), in 1989 the incidence of abnormal reactions and misadventures during medical care in Canada was just half that of the U.S. *[6]

Page 2 of 8

Infant Mortality Rate The Infant Mortality Rate (IMR) is just a measure of the number of infants that die within a year of birth. I was able to find comparative data for both Canada and the U.S. prior to the development of the Canadian Universal Health System. Hospital insurance was initiated in most provinces over a period of a few years, and was in place in all provinces by 1961. Medical (Doctors) insurance was started in the early 1970's and in all provinces by the late 1970's.

IMR per 1,000 births

United States Canada

1950 29.2- 40.7-

1953 27.9- 35.9-

1964 25.2- 26.7-

1983 11.20 08.52

1988 10.00 7.60

1995 7.52 5.92

1998 6.44 5.59

Please remember that for life expectancy rates high numbers are good and for infant mortality rates low numbers are good. My source was the Internet, U.S. Bureau of the Census, "International Data Base". Data for the earlier years come from various "Statistical Abstracts of the United States". Years of Disability Free Life, (Late 70's) both sexes *[7]

United States average 60 years per person

Canada average 66 years per person

Diseases of the Circulatory System, including those of the heart. *[8]

Years of Potential Life Lost per 100,000 people (1989)

United States Canada

Males (under 65) 1250 1020

Females (under 65) 538 320

While the above statistics don't totally prove anything about the quality of the Canadian health care system, I would want to see some strong evidence before I considered it to be of poor quality.

Page 3 of 8

IMPOSSIBLE! YOU CAN'T GET SOMETHING FOR NOTHING!

It's not impossible! I agree that you can't get something for nothing, but human effort can increase efficiency and productivity. Canadians do this by partially substituting democratic planning to replace an unregulated free-market system. Anyone, who has studied the issue, knows that unregulated markets can be very inefficient, and unproductive. The previous section of this article, called “What’s the Catch?”, explored, to some extent, the productivity, defined as the delivery of useful services, of the U.S. and Canadian systems. This section will primarily examine the efficiency of both systems.

Hospital Overhead

First: In the United States, fifteen hundred different insurance companies, along with Medicaid, Medicare, and employer-provided plans, pay hospitals, doctors, and laboratories. This multi-payer structure has spawned a complex accounting system. Each "payer"; that is - an insurance company, or government agency, has its own rules and documentation requirements, and tries to shift costs onto other payers.

The result is a stifling administrative burden for American medical professionals and hospitals, and the creation of an army of accountants and administrators to sift through billing paperwork. *[9]

Detailed Medicare records for 6,400 hospitals nationwide, obtained through the Freedom of Information Act, shows that in 1990, 24.8 percent of all hospital spending in the United States went to administration. Canadian hospitals spend little on billing and internal cost tracking, and between 9 and 11 percent of their total budgets on administration, less than half of U.S. spending. *[10]

Physicians' Office Overhead

There are no precise figures for the time and expense, devoted to administration, in physicians' offices. According to one estimate, U.S. doctors averaged spending $330 (US) per capita on billing and office expenses in 1993, or more than 2.3 times the $142 (US) spent by Canadian doctors. *[11] Nearly half of all people employed in U.S. doctors' offices (47 percent) are clerical and secretarial. Much of their time goes to tasks that do not exist in Canada. *[12]

Canadian doctors do not have to keep different kinds of records in their offices for different payers. Nor do they have to send separate bills to individual patients. Like the Canadian hospitals, Canadian doctors get paid for their medically necessary services by a public agency and only have that single agency to deal with for payment. They waste no administrative effort in doctors' offices chasing after patients or their insurance companies for payment. They require no prior approval when ordering or providing specific health care services. No time is wasted discussing with patients the potential costs of treatments and whether they can meet them.

In Canada in 1990 there was one practicing physician for every 448 people. This ratio differed little from that in the United States, where there was a practicing physician for every 432 people. However, the Canadian doctors saw more patients. The average number of physician contacts per person that year was 6.9, compared to 5.5 in the United States. *[13]

Page 4 of 8

Competition vs. Efficiency

The market theory of supply and demand rests on the assumption of readily available choices and information. For the most part, people do not have a choice about when, if, where, or how to get sick or become disabled. After a car accident or a breast cancer diagnosis, few are in a position to shop around, and if they are, seldom have the expertise required to make the appropriate choice. Although competition is frequently viewed as a way of increasing efficiency, it often leads to unnecessary duplication and inefficiency. Competition encourages investment in expensive, sophisticated technologies designed to attract "customers." A 1990 study has demonstrated that hospital costs are higher in areas with more competition. *[14]

As an example, Boston's Massachusetts General Hospital recently opened a new obstetrical service, despite being within three miles of five well-established maternity programs with surplus beds. *[15]

In 1990, Canada had significantly more hospital beds for their population, (6.7 per 1,000 vs. 5.0 per 1,000) than the United States. Not surprisingly, more Canadians per capita were admitted to hospitals, and they also stayed substantially longer than in the United States. Canadian hospital patients averaged three more days of care. However, the United States still pays more per person on hospital services.

This is not only because of the reduced administrative costs of the Canadian system, but because it is the United States, not Canada, that has the most surplus beds! *[16] Besides having a surplus of three hundred thousand hospital beds, the U.S. also has at least five thousand surplus mammography machines. The excess raises the cost per mammogram since most machines are used only part-time. In facilities that operate at low volumes, quality is often lower, since staff may not perform enough mammograms to maintain their competence. Uncontrolled capital spending not only raises costs, but it can also lower quality. *[17]

Gaming the System

The search for profit also has disadvantages in health care. It leads to waste and to inappropriate care. Profits can be derived both from reducing costs and from increasing sales. It is consequently in the interest of for-profit firms to sell as much expensive care as possible, rather than to focus on providing appropriate services as determined on the basis of health care needs. In "Health Care in the United States: The Facts and the Choices," Stephen Ayers describes the dynamic at work when payments to hospitals are tied to diagnosis related groupings (DRG's), a classification or coding system introduced in an effort to control Medicare costs.

"Certain codes paid top dollar, so every effort was made to squeeze patients into the higher paying diagnoses. Cardiac catheterization, bypass surgery, and angioplasty paid particularly well, and the number of hospitals performing these procedures increased dramatically. However, since trauma care paid poorly and many trauma patients were uninsured, the number of trauma centers in the country decreased sharply." *[18]

Page 5 of 8

In Canadian hospitals however, public administration has resulted in global budgets that significantly reduce the incentives to emphasize the most complicated and expensive types of care. Under global budgeting, each hospital receives, from the province, a fixed amount that they can then allocate on the basis of patients' needs, rather than on the basis of revenue maximization. Of course the waste produced by "gaming the system" activity can also occur in a nonprofit system based on piecework incentives.

However, because physicians in Canada are paid a specific wage for their time, there is very little incentive to do so! There are, of course, other reasons that "pure" market solutions are inefficient and unproductive. In a competitive system preventive health care may not pay off for ten years, and the benefits could accrue to another insurer. Also competition means marketing, and marketing means costs.

Private Insurers

Contrary to conventional wisdom, private insurers spend far more on bureaucracy than do government insurance programs. In 1991, more than 13 percent of every premium dollar went to overhead, such as claims processing, marketing, furnishing insurance company offices, executives' salaries, and of course, perks and profits. In contrast, Medicare spent about 2 percent, and Canada's public insurance system takes less than 1 percent of each premium dollar. *[19]

Are Canadian Stupid?

Well, basing my opinion on that Gallup Poll, published in the Toronto Star in 1993, I would say that: Yes, about 2 percent are stupid, and about 2 percent are, unlike you and me, just uneducated. NOTE: This article was extensively re-edited by the Author, July 2002.

FURTHER READING

This article was based on only a small amount of original research. The following two books cover the majority of the points made in this article - and more!

"Universal Health Care: What the United States Can Learn From the Canadian Experience," by Pat & Hugh Armstrong, The New Press, New York, 1998

"The Rational Option for a National Health Program," by John Canham-Clyne, with Steffie Woolhandler, M.D., and David Himmelstein, M.D., The Pamphleteer's Press Inc., Stoney Creek, Connecticut, 1995

Another publication produced in June 1991 by the U.S. General Accounting Office (GAO) titled "Canadian Health Insurance: Lessons for the United States" states on page 6, "[if] the United States were to shift to a system of universal coverage and a single payer, as in Canada, the savings in administration costs would be more than enough to offset the expense of universal coverage."

Page 6 of 8

FOOTNOTES

UHC = "Universal Health Care: What the United States Can Learn From the Canadian Experience," by Pat & Hugh Armstrong, The New Press, New York, 1998 RO = "The Rational Option for a National Health Program," by John Canham-Clyne, with Steffie Woolhandler, M.D., and David Himmelstein, M.D., The Pamphleteer's Press Inc., Stoney Creek, Connecticut, 1995

*[1] (OECD) Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, "Health Data 97" , from UHC, p. 104 Table 6.4 Note: The actual data is from 1995.

*[2] U.S. Census Bureau, "Health Insurance Coverage, 1995" "Highlights" (Washington: U.S. Census Bureau, 1996) from, UHC p.105 footnote 8

*[3] UHC p.105

*[4] "Medicare Deductible, Coinsurance and Premium

Amounts," The Federal Register 61:214 (Nov. 1996), pp. 55002-006 from, UHC p.26 Table 2.1

*[5] Life Expectancy at Birth (for any particular year) is calculated by first, counting the total number of people who die at each year of life, such as under one year of age, and dividing that number by the total population of babies under one year of age. This will give the percentage of individuals that died at that age. As an example, in the U.S., in 1998, 6.44 children out of 1000 died under one year of age. Dividing 6.44 by 1,000 gives, 0.644 percent of children in 1998 dying before one year of age. (See: Infant Mortality Rate in the following paragraphs of my article.) Next do the same calculations for under two years of age, and add that percentage to your previous percent (0.644 in the example). When the total reaches 50 percent that is the (average) Life Expectancy at Birth, for that population or nation in that year.

Source: "Vital Statistics of the United States", Department of Health and Human Services, (National Center for Health Statistics), pub. 1996, section 6.

*[6] OECD, “OECD Health Systems: Facts and Trends 1960 - 1991” (Paris: OECD, 1993), table 3.2.13, f rom UHC, p. 82

*[7] OECD, "OECD Health Systems,” table 3.1.9 from, UHC p. 80 footnote 26 The figures for Canada are from 1978 while those for the United States are from 1980. This is thus likely to underestimate, rather than overestimate, the differences between the two countries in disability free years.

*[8] OECD,” OECD Health Systems,” table 3.2.4. from, UHC p.82 footnote 35

*[9] RO, page 44.

*[10] Woolhandler and Himmelstein, "Administrative Costs" p. 401 from, RO p.44 footnote 38

Page 7 of 8

*[11] Himmelstein and Woodhandler, "National Health Program Book", from UHC, p. 134

*[12 ] RO, page 45.

*[13] UHC, page 36

*[14] Himmelstein and Woodhandler, "National Health Program Book", from UHC, p. 126

*[15] RO, page 23

*[16] Nair, Karim, and Nyers, "Health Care and Health Status: A Canada-United States Statistical Comparison" Health Reports , 4:2 (1992), p. 176 from, UHC p. 35 & 36

*[17] Brown, Kessler, and Reuter, "Is the Supply of Mammography Machines Outstripping Need and Demand? An Economic Analysis," Annals of Internal Medicine 113 (1990), 547; Himmelstein and Woolhandler, Chartbook, p. 59 from, RO p. 23 footnote 11

*[18] Ayers, "Health Care in the United States", pp. 17-18 from, UHC p. 119 footnote 6

*[19] RO, pages 43-44

Page 8 of 8

[joseph_hardesty]

An interesting analytical comparison of Canadian Universal Health Care to the American brand of health care. Looks to me like the Canadian brand beats out our brand in every respect.

[SJSAMPLE]

We can always just ask the hordes of Canadians streaming over the Ambassador Bridge and through the Windsor Tunnel as they come to Detroit for routine testing and invasive surgery. Why do you suppose that is? Hmmmmmmmm.

[TheBigB]

So move to Canada, member since Nov. 6, 2003.

[The Old Hoosier]

the Canadian brand beats out our brand in every respect

Unless you want surgery this year.

[eabinga]

I would like to know, seriously, how much paperwork canadian doctors and hospitals have to file. It seems to me, that generating paperwork is the main activity in the US healthcare system.

[discostu]

Let's see SARS got into Toronto and killed over a hundred people, SARS got into America and killed none. Which country has the superior healthcare system?

Most of those stats are related to a lot more than just healthcare, life expectancy is also a function of diet, driving habits, life style risks and willingness to see doctors in the first place.

When push comes to shove the question is simple: check out the quality of the roads on your next trip, do you reall want those people in charge or your healthcare?

[GWfan]

What a pant load.

[VRWCmember]

Incoming!

Joseph, feel free to participate in the wonderful canadian healthcare system.

Two words: doorknob, @$$

[VRWCmember]

You Might be a Troll if ...

If that post is the best you can come up with ... you might be a troll.

If you like DU ... you might be a troll.

If you have had more than two screen names at Free Republic in one week ... you might be a troll.

If you can't remember the last time you bathed ... you might be a troll.

If you think that U.S. courts should consider the rulings and opinions of the courts of other countries rather than basing their rulings exclusively on the U.S. Constitution and the laws of the U.S. and of its several states ... you might be a troll.

If you think The Guardian is anything other than a socialist rag ... you are probably a troll.

If you think algore really won the Florida election, but the mean old US Supreme Court wouldn't allow the rules for counting ballots to be changed to your liking ... you must be a troll.

If you think the economy would be doing better if Congress hadn't passed those piddly little tax cuts ... you must be a troll.

If you think foreign policy under an algore administration or that of any of the current democrat wannabees would make us safer from attack from our enemies ... you must be a troll.

Hey troll, this viking kitty has a message for you:

[Pete]

First, posting an article like this on your first day is likley to get you labeled a disruptor (even if you are not). Second, I know people who live under this system in Canada. Why don't you mention the 6 month waiting lists to get surgeries? Why don't you mention that if you are over a certain age and you have cancer, they send you home to die? This happened to my Aunt.

They mention that Medicare only has a 2% overhead. That is very misleading. Go out to the private insurance company that the government has contracted with to administer Medicare and see what their overhead is. Not to mention the cost shifting to the private sector by government programs.

Why don't you mention that benefits have been massively scaled back in Canada in recent years because of budget deficits? Finally, why don't you mention that all health care is rationed. Whether economically or by the government. I am very nervous letting the government decide who gets health care and who doesn't.

[joseph_hardesty]

I wrote:

the Canadian brand beats out our brand in every respect

You wrote:

Unless you want surgery this year.

As the above article points out, in a 1992 Gallup poll, the Canadians, who live right next to us, and speak the same language, and have lots of knowledge of our system, preferred their system to our system by 96% to 2%.

If they had such huge problems with not getting adequate care, why on earth would you get such HUGELY slanted number against the US system and for their system?

[goodnesswins]

You know...you're NEW HERE (11/6/03).....and you post something like this on your first day? You really should improve your analytical skills before posting this kind of tripe....

[luckydevi]

Our government has too much control over our healthcare as it is. There is nothing conservative about universal health care.

[unsycophant]

The article you cite is titled "Are Canadians Stupid?". You would probably get more interest by leaving it unaltered, newbie.

[Conspiracy Guy]

What is today? Fools on Parade? Move to or stay in Canada but save your posts for DU.

[goodnesswins]

YOU cite the Canadians as Preferring THEIR system to ours.....LOL....The Canadians have gotten used to having to wait for surgeries, to having their elderly kicked out of hospitals ASAP to make room for others, etc.....sheesh....(I LIVED there, have friends who lived there, I KNOW!)

[eleni121]

We can always just ask the hordes of Canadians streaming over the Ambassador Bridge and through the Windsor Tunnel as they come to Detroit for routine testing and invasive surgery. Why do you suppose that is? Hmmmmmmmm.

Add the Peace Bridge directly funneling Torontonians into the Buffalo NY hospitals for the same reasons.

Friends in Toronto tell us regularly of the incredible waits for routing checkups. So much anecdotal evidence to show how bad Canadian health care really is.

[Pete]

If they had such huge problems with not getting adequate care, why on earth would you get such HUGELY slanted number against the US system and for their system?

The answer is obvious when you realize that in any given year 5% of people generate 50% of the costs. Also, you can expect 70% to 75% of the people in a given year will not have a need to access the health care system. That is why health care polling doesn't work.

[dighton]

Mmmmmmmmmmm, Canadian bacon-flavored kittenchow.

[discostu]

It's an 11 year old poll dude, try grabbing some info from this century.

[hchutch]

Fox Four! Fox Four!

[TruthConquers]

I have relatives in Canada.

I had an uncle who was allowed to be blind for the last six months of life because a simply operation to allow him to see was decided to be not a good use of health care dollars.

I had an other uncle who was dieing and there was no bed for him available at the hospital in Winnipeg. They did not diagnose him until it was too late.

Take your numbers, words of lies, and pray that we never have Canadian health care here.

[Conspiracy Guy]

Go there and live. Problem solved.

[mhking]

When you get some true empirical data that is not cobbled together by someone and tossed haphazardly onto a Geocities site, call me.

Otherwise, go take a flying leap.

[joseph_hardesty]

I post a detailed, footnoted article on one of the most talked-about topics in American politics today, and you call it a "troll"? I'm stunned!

[Nataku X]

I believe that health care spending in America is about 20% of our private spending plus the aforementioned 6.6% government spending. That adds up to about 25% of our total gross income.

The entire socialist world is piggybacking on us.

• End tort reform.
• Make health insurance like car insurance. You don't pay for normal gas fill-ups and the like, you just pay for the big accidents. Same thing with health care.
• Medicare beneficaries should have a $1000 deductible MINIMUM.
• Allow people to import drugs from other countries. Supply & demand will reduce the cost in our country while increasing cost in other countries, thus working against foreign price controls.
• Why the heck do we pay teachers to go through college in exchange for 5 years' work while letting med school students accumulate hundreds of thousands of dollars' debt?

<flame suit on>

[Pkeel]

Of course it does hence the many many Americans in Canadian Hospitals and the total lack of any Canadians in US Hospitals. /sarcasm off

You fools make me sick. The only problem with healthcare is the US inability to force the people who use it as a free service to pay. Our neighbors had 2 children and bragged to us how they never had any intention of paying for either.

[mhking]

[webstersII]

"Unless you want surgery this year."

Here's a pretty radical thought:
Maybe alot of surgery in this country is unnecessary, and the delay in getting surgery for many people in CA is actually saving lives. Those people are forced to look for alternatives and find other ways to treat their health issues through diet and lifestyle choices.

It's just a thought.

I'm donning my asbestos suit now. Flame away.

[Conspiracy Guy]

No. We called you a troll. Go live in Canada.

[BookmanTheJanitor]

CANADIANS HEAD TO MAINE FOR MEDICAL TREATMENT

Normally when you hear about bus trips between Maine and Canada related to health care, it's Mainers going north to buy prescription drugs.

But right about now, a group of Canadians is in Bangor for treatment. Twelve Canadians came south for a similar trip last year. The trip from New Brunswick is sponsored by a Canadian consumer group which says Canada's universal health care system restricts many forms of treatment for Canadians, and forces long waits for tests and procedures such as m-r-i's. The Canadians will be treated in Bangor this afternoon, and then head back to Canada.

http://www.wlbz.com/home/article.asp?id=7459

[webstersII]

"I believe that health care spending in America is about 20% of our private spending plus the
aforementioned 6.6% government spending. "

You're mixing numbers. It said 6.6% of GDP, not gov't spending. It's more like 25-30% of gov't spending.

But I thought the real numbers were more like 14% of GDP.

[from occupied ga]

Canadian Universal Health Care Superior To Our Own Health Care?

no

Are Canadians Stupid?

yes

An interesting analytical comparison of Canadian Universal Health Care

Analytic comparison my a$$ for example

In Canadian hospitals however, public administration has resulted in global budgets that significantly reduce the incentives to emphasize the most complicated and expensive types of care.

Is nothing but an opinion. If "public administration" has led to a reduced cost, then this is the first time in the history of the planet that "public administration" has reduced the cost of anything.

[Pete]

The answer is obvious when you realize that in any given year 5% of people generate 50% of the costs. Also, you can expect 70% to 75% of the people in a given year will not have a need to access the health care system

Let me clarify that. I should say "in a serious way based on claims dollars". That is, they will not have face any serious impediments to service due to the minor nature of their claims. On average, around 25% of the people in a given year will have no claims (i.e. require no medical services). The problem, of course, is that the 25% who do need serious service in a given year is not the same 25% as last year.

[smpc]

In Canada,do they have the same thing we have in Australia re private health care?ie,if you do get private health care insurance,you are exempt from paying medicare fees at tax time?

[Nataku X]

You are right, according to here it is 14.1% of GDP, higher than what this article states. Perhaps he meant 6.6% of the GDP was in public health care spending. In any case the 6.6% figure not being what he claimed to be makes the entire article suspect.

[Grampa Dave]

Since Canada now believes in preemptive surrender and has allowed the US to pay for its defense the past 3 decades, Canada has a little more money for socialized Medicine.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1016070/posts

Mark Steyn: Europeans are Worse than Cockroaches
The Spectator ^ | November 8, 2003 | Mark Steyn

"On 11 September 2001, I wrote that one of the casualties of the day’s events would be the Western alliance: ‘The US taxpayer’s willingness to pay for the defence of Canada and Europe has contributed to the decay of America’s so-called “allies”, freeing them to disband their armed forces, flirt with dictators and gangster states, and essentially convert themselves to semi-non-aligned.’ ‘The West’ was an obsolete concept, because, as I put it later that month, for everyone but America ‘the free world is mostly a free ride’."

"One: Mr Collenette’s response to terrorists is to take it out on their targets. Terrorists are threatening to use SAMs against El Al? No problem, we’ll get rid of El Al. That’s a great message to send. How soon before similar threats are phoned in to similarly jelly-spined jurisdictions in Europe? Pretty soon El Al won’t be flying anywhere. But no matter: Air Canada and Air France and Lufthansa will still be flying to Tel Aviv — at least until a couple of anonymous phone calls are made hinting at fresh targets.


The threats against El Al came via phone calls from the Toronto area from terrorists claiming to have heat-seeking missiles. Police subsequently found a cache of weapons including a German-made shoulder rocket launcher that was smuggled into Canada through the ingenious method of dropping it in the mail and letting the Post Office deliver it. So there are two approaches to this problem: you can crack down on Toronto-based terrorist cells and try to get government agencies not to deliver their rocket launchers; or you can ban El Al. Mr Collenette inclines to the latter. This is a man, by the way, who marked the first anniversary of 11 September by publicly regretting the fall of the Soviet Union because now there is nobody to check America’s ‘bullying’.


Lesson: In the war on terror, the United States believes in pre-emption; Canada, like many other ‘allies’, believes in pre-emptive surrender. These two strategies are incompatible."

[Nataku X]

I could be wrong but I believe that you're not allowed to have any private insurance at all. All health care is public. That way everyone is equal.

I went gambling up there recently and got a Canadian quarter with cutesy-drawn butterflies and balloons on it. I kid you not. LOL!

[VRWCmember]

I post a detailed, footnoted article on one of the most talked-about topics in American politics today, and you call it a "troll"? I'm stunned!

How about a disclaimer:

This article was based on only a small amount of original research. The following two books cover the majority of the points made in this article - and more!

"Universal Health Care: What the United States Can Learn From the Canadian Experience," by Pat & Hugh Armstrong, The New Press, New York, 1998

"The Rational Option for a National Health Program," by John Canham-Clyne, with Steffie Woolhandler, M.D., and David Himmelstein, M.D., The Pamphleteer's Press Inc., Stoney Creek, Connecticut, 1995

So this "detailed, footnoted article" is based on research primarily from a couple of puffed up propaganda pieces for socialized medicine and you are STUNNED that it isn't taken seriously here?

[BookmanTheJanitor]

Oct. 21, 2003. 01:00 AM
TORONTO STAR

Medical waiting times growing, study says
Treatment delayed average of 18 weeks

90% of waits not clinically `reasonable'


MARLENE HABIB
CANADIAN PRESS

Average waiting times across Canada to see a family doctor or specialist to get diagnostic and other essential medical care have increased in the last year and have reached an all-time high over the past decade, suggests a national survey released yesterday.

More than 90 per cent of average waiting times are considered beyond clinically "reasonable," indicates the survey by the Fraser Institute, right-wing think-tank based in Vancouver.

The institute surveyed 2,817 specialists across Canada for its 13th annual waiting-list survey, titled: "Waiting Your Turn: Hospital Waiting Lists in Canada."

The total waiting time — from the moment a patient gets a referral from a family doctor to the time he or she gets treatment — in a dozen specialties such as cancer, heart, eye and orthopedic care rose from 16.5 weeks in 2001-02 to 17.7 weeks in 2003, the survey suggests.

"Canadians are waiting almost 18 weeks for essential medical care," said John Graham, the institute's director of health and pharmaceutical policy research.

"The standard solution — throwing more money at the problem — is just not working."

[SAJ]

Old Hoosier erred: he meant to say this decade

OK, you Canuckistanian clown, what's the waiting period for the elective (but enormously life-enhancing) eye surgery known as intraocular phacoemulsification. In the UK, under their vaunted National Plan, it's 2.5 to 3 years. In the US, in my case at least, it was 11 days.

How long would I have had to stay well worse than legally blind in the Socialist White North?

[joseph_hardesty]

You "accidentally forgot" to mention the introductory paragraph to the news story you cited. I will be glad to reproduce it here:

"Normally when you hear about bus trips between Maine and Canada related to health care, it's Mainers going north to buy prescription drugs."

You are welcome!

[mitchbert]

The central problem with our (Canadian) system is the lack of a private alternative for those who wish to avail themselves of it. This requires folks who don't want to wait for service to go to the States and pay for it if they can. Wait times are caused by several issues but two of them are the backlog created by folks with no opportunity to opt out of the public system, thereby opening up space for others, and the shortage of beds due to limited government resources to build new facilities. That being said, long waits are not universal. Personally, I had a situation this year where I needed to see my doctor for an unpleasant but certainly non-life threatening condition. I saw him the same day I called him. I saw a specialist two hours later, and was in outpatient surgery the following day. And I'm no one of importance; the trick is I have a long term family physician and don't rely on walk in clinincs or emergency rooms for my medical care (far too many do). Cancer patients are another matter in many cases, though, as limited facilities do create unacceptable waits. Still, my family has had some experience with cancer in the past while, and treatment was timely and appropriate. This is harder for people in small towns and remote areas, though to be sure.

Discostu, I would argue that the reason SARS didn't spread widely outside Toronto was specifically because it was first detected in Toronto. We have some excellent research and teaching hospitals up here and once the initial spread happened (a situation that was caused by sloppy procedure and unfamiliarity with the disease, not specific to a socialized system) there was a full court press effort to stop the spread, and in fact it didn't move out of the group affected by the original spread. Had this disease surfaced in a small town with limited facilities and few specialists in infectious diseases it could have got out of hand really quickly. What do you think would have happened if the first breakout of the virus had been in the barrios of LA? Illegals get sick, won't go the hospital out of fear or ignorance, can you say rapidly spreading pandemic? North America is very lucky it happened here first. YOu want to blame somebody? Blame the vile communist Chinese for sitting on this problem for months out of their stupid oriental misplaced "pride and fear of loss of face." And before anyone thinks I'm simply blindly defending our system here, I'm not. There are serious issues with it, but I one of my closest friends is a Doctor of Immunology at Sunnybrook Health Sciences (where you want to be if you're REALLY sick or injured in Toronto) and she was on the inside of the SARS crisis (also working currently on West Nile).

Our system is far from perfect, and I have have many family members who are American physicians (surgeons, actually); in many ways the U.S. system is vastly superior to the Canadian system, the health of research and discoveries being only one proof of that. The one big advantage the Canuck system has is that a major illness won't cost you everything you have, and the medical community can bring the full weight of available treatment technology to bear on anyone who needs it. Still, never forget what P.J. O'Roarke says about government run medical care: "If you think health care is expensive now, just wait until it's 'free'."

[mitchbert]

In Canada,do they have the same thing we have in Australia re private health care?ie,if you do get private health care insurance,you are exempt from paying medicare fees at tax time?

No, everyone gets dinged on their tax bill. As well, many folks, myself included, carry supplamental coverage (though an employer/employee copayment arrangement) that insures me for things the gov't system doesn't, like dental, drugs, long term disability pay assistance, etc. Our system is far from universal in fact.

[BookmanTheJanitor]

WTF? I just posted the article (including the part you said I forgot) & source. If you got a problem with the article or with reading comprehension, that's too bad.

[smpc]

So there are no private hospitals there?

[jla]

So are you an American or Canadian?
And what's your point in posting this?

[hobbes1]

I won't say you're an idiot but.....


Here's something that is far too obvious for the author to have omitted from consideration.


Immigration. We have a far greater number of people streaming cross our borders that Canada does not have, and that skews all of the Health numbers.


Go back to DU.

[Scenic Sounds]

Increasingly, the traditional connection between employment and health insurance in this country is being severed. Private employers seem to want out of the health insurance business. Should this trend continue, I think that it is more or less inevitable that some sort of national health care system will emerge here. If people can't continue to get health insurance at work, I'm afraid that they will get it at the ballot box. ;-)

[weegee]

Just another smarmy lib.

Please don't feed the trolls.