Posted on 11/06/2003 7:31:54 PM PST by republicanwizard
Not really. But I'm curious, how did Mayor Brown learn of the 'plot'? I wonder who told him? Was it Lamon? I believe that according to his account only he and Lincoln were privy to the plan. Are you suggesting that Lamon told Brown, an ardent foe of the administration?
Why? You couldn't - and didn't - refute it then.
If not, then demonstrate how the matter has been settled. The burden is yours
But I'm curious, how did Mayor Brown learn of the 'plot'?
Word travels quickly. The fact remains that he knew of a plot to arrest Taney though and went to Taney's court to warn him.
I believe that according to his account only he and Lincoln were privy to the plan.
I believe you are incorrect and others were in the room.
Are you suggesting that Lamon told Brown
I don't know who told Brown because Brown didn't say. I do know that Brown knew of the plot though because he said so in written detail.
It was not just foreign countries that needed to be convinced by selecting more moderate leaders: there was also the Upper South, the Border States, Northern Democrats and conservatives and those in the CSA who weren't in favor of secession. I don't know how radical or moderate the convention or Congress that selected Davis was. It does tend to happen in revolutions that the most radical agitators who make the revolution are passed over when heads of government are chosen. It may be that cooler heads prevailed at Montgomery. Then again, it may be that pragmatic grounds motivated even some of the more passionate and enthusiastic secessionists to choose someone who was perceived as being more moderate.
It looks like Stephens, an old Whig, did oppose secession, but here we have Jefferson Davis's November 10, 1860 letter to Robert Toombs, written a few days after the election. Davis urges on purely practical grounds that the cotton states coordinate their actions, so that no state secede too early before it was clear that others would support it. Some arguments for caution and deliberation in late 1860 may just have been delaying tactics until Southern political leaders got all their ducks in a row, not indications of indecision, deep reflection or emotional torment. Doubtless, Davis felt regrets on leaving the Union, but he was also able to think quite cooly about what he and his state were doing.
BZZZT! Wrong. Lincoln did not stop at simply taking the forts as his quote suggested he would do. Rather, he marched armies into the southern states in hostility against their people and used those armies to coerce obedience. And that, by Lincoln's very own definition, is an invasion.
He took no hostile actions against any southern state prior to the southern initiation of hostilities at Sumter.
Yes he did. He dispatched the fleet a week before Fort Sumter to provoke a military conflict.
I bet you think it "lives" and "breaths" as well. Most Democrats do, you know.
You can find my post on the subject here:
This is not my ancestor, but it was easy to find here:Estes, Ziptchniah; Present Post Office address: Motes, Alabama, born 20 Sep 1836 at Decatur in De Kalb County, Georgia; first entered the service as Private on 28 Sep 1861 at Bowden, Georgia in 2nd Georgia Battery, Company B and continued until Apr 1862, when I was discharged at Brunswick, Georgia. Re-enlisted as Private on 10 May 1862 at Brunswick, Georgia in 56th Georgia Regiment Infantry, Company B and continued until 4 Jul 1863 when I was captured at Vicksburg, Mississippi, was soon exchanged. Re-enlisted as Private in Sep 1863 at Stone Mountain, Georgia in 56th Georgia Infantry, Company B and continued until 1 May 1865 when I was paroled at Augusta, Georgia.Hamrick, George Washington first entered the service as Private on 16 May 1861, continued until Dec 1861, when discharged and re-enlisted as Private on 1 Feb 1862, captured 19 May 1864.Hurley, George W., entered the service as 2nd Lieutenant on 20 Dec 1861, discharged 1 May 1862 because of illness, re-enlisted as Private in Oct 1862.
Millican, Thomas Jefferson, first entered service on 1 Jul 1861, discharged 30 Aug 1862, re-enlisted as private, Feb 1865 discharged because of illness.
Tingle, Francis Marion, first entered the service 20 Sep 1862, 16 May 1863 captured and exchanged. Re-enlisted on 4 Jul 1863 until discharged Nov 1864 [struck by lightning]. Re-enlisted in Dec 1864.
And another here, Michael W. Harvey Auburn, private Apr 1861 discharged 16 Sep 1861, re-enlisted as private Oct 1861 until discharged Aug 1862. Re-enlisted as private Jan 1862.
Robert Yancey Jones Opelika, Fall 1861 had Typhoid fever and discharged. Re-enlisted in Fall of 1861 until the end of the six months for which said troops were enlisted and discharged. Re-enlisted in Spring 1862.
I guess more than one man was eager to defend his country from the invaders.
the organization is NOT the old and good NAACP, but rather a leftist,racebaiting shadow of the old. nobody but LIBERALS & statists need apply.
free dixie,sw
See post 19. Your hero had the same mindset about quelling the opposition. He had as little disregard for the First Amendment as you do. Shame shame.
actually ... we are not that far from it now
You are exactly right
Preston [Confederate Superindendent of Conscription] had barely begun work before he discovered two very serious impediments. First, he found that the volunteer system had, because of the activities of army recruiting officers, degenerated into a system of avoiding service. Men in large numbers - 'indeed large majorities in some localities" - held back from volunteering unitl they could dodge the enrolling officers no longer; then they accepted 'offers of recruiting who tender them rewards and extended furloughs for the chance of getting their names on their rolls. thus delaying the volunteer beyond the conscript." He had seen "furloughs of ninety given by recruiting officers to men who held certificates six months old that they belonged to certain companies companies, and who had never been in the field." In other instances men escaped after enrollment and joined companies from which it was difficult to reclaim them. (O.R. ser IV, vol II, 694.) The next, and the more serious impediment was the extensive aggregation of conscripts and deserters in inaccessible places.
The reports that came to Preston's office in August convinced him that the task of arresting deserters and renegade conscripts would be a difficult one. Armed bands of conscripts and deserters were reported from all the States in his jurisdiction. From Virginia, relatively free up to this time from desertion and skulking, came the report that in a dozen or more of the upper counties even the best citizens were becoming demoralized and disloyalty was widespread.
Deserters had become defiant. When asked by enrolling officers for their authority to be away from their commands they would merely "pat their guns and say, 'This is my furlough.'" and the officers turned away as "peacefully as possible.' (O.R. ser IV, vol II, 721) From the hitherto loyal South Carolina came the unwelcomed news that there was a "most lamentable and fearful condition of affairs in the mountains of Greenville, Pickens, and Spartanburg [counties]." Commandant C. D. Melton wrote that there were few families in this section which had 'not ahusband, a son, a brother, a kinsman, a deserter in the mountains," and it was no longer a reproach to be known as a deserter. Conscripts and deserters had organized and taken up headquarters in the mountain fortresses, or in cottages converted into blockhouses, from which they sallied forth in force to harvest the crops, or to do the less irksome labor of plundering their yet loyal neighbors. It was dangerous for an officer of the law to approach them or for a neighbor to tell tales them. (O.R. ser IV, vol II, 771,769, 773, 774,784).
In North Carolina, according to Inspector George W. Lay, conditions had gone from bad to worse. Not merely the Western part now, but the central portion as well, was reported to be on verge of desperate action. Under the leadership of W. W. Holden, editor of the Standard, and "Tory" of the first water, it seemed that these conditions it seemed that these sections might soon espouse the cause of peace. (O.R. ser I, vol LI Pt II , 739, 740 Conscripts and deserters were organized and holding themselves for defense by regular drills, and in one place 500 of them were intrenched in a camp. In another place, in Cherokee County, they had assumed a sort of military occupation of a town. Enrolling officers were shot on sight and the country round about was subject to pillage and all sorts of violence. (O.R. ser IV, vol II, 783) Requests were made troops from the army to relieve the orderly and helpless citizens of this scourge (O.R. ser I, vol XXIX PT II, 676; ser IV, vol II 733). The Governors of North Carolina and South Carolina took joint action against the affiliated bands along the boundary line between their States, (O.R. ser IV, vol II, 741, 765. See page 795 for Governor Vance's proclamation of September 7th warning those those who were opposing the military laws that they would be punished as traitors) and President recommended that a general officer should be stationed there with a brigade.
Estes, Ziptchniah; Present Post Office address: Motes, Alabama, born 20 Sep 1836 at Decatur in De Kalb County, Georgia; first entered the service as Private on 28 Sep 1861 at Bowden, Georgia in 2nd Georgia Battery, Company B and continued until Apr 1862, when I was discharged at Brunswick, Georgia.
6 months enlistment in the state of Georgia. Soft spot.
Re-enlisted as Private on 10 May 1862 at Brunswick, Georgia in 56th Georgia Regiment Infantry, Company B and continued until 4 Jul 1863 when I was captured at Vicksburg, Mississippi, was soon exchanged.
Conscripted in April with 30 day deadline to volunteer of be used to fill regiments elsewhere, most notably under Lee. Chose to 'volunteer' locally, but the unit got sent against Grant at Vicksburg and shamefully trounced twice.
Re-enlisted as Private in Sep 1863 at Stone Mountain, Georgia in 56th Georgia Infantry, Company B and continued until 1 May 1865 when I was paroled at Augusta, Georgia.
Upon parole was immediately liable to conscription. Chose to volunteer with ahead of conscript deadline, or maybe had a volunteer furlough of 90 days. Did you ever read Hood's comments on this unit. Tsk.
Hamrick, George Washington first entered the service as Private on 16 May 1861, continued until Dec 1861, when discharged and re-enlisted as Private on 1 Feb 1862, captured 19 May 1864.
Conscripted in April 1862. You did'nt include his unit, it obviously can't be the one above, or he would have been captured at Vicksburg unless he deserted somewhere.
Hurley, George W., entered the service as 2nd Lieutenant on 20 Dec 1861, discharged 1 May 1862 because of illness, re-enlisted as Private in Oct 1862.
Conscripted by national act in April 1862. Liable for conscription upon recovery, chose to 'volunteer to avoid service in Virginia.
Millican, Thomas Jefferson, first entered service on 1 Jul 1861, discharged 30 Aug 1862, re-enlisted as private, Feb 1865 discharged because of illness.
Conscripted by National Conscription act of April, 1862. Conscripted again by second national act, but delayed entry with furlough or some other means.
Tingle, Francis Marion, first entered the service 20 Sep 1862, 16 May 1863 captured and exchanged. Re-enlisted on 4 Jul 1863 until discharged Nov 1864 [struck by lightning]. Re-enlisted in Dec 1864.
Conscripted by National Act, April 1862. Delayed entry by fout months. Probably he 30 day delay and then a 90 day furlough. Nice move. Upon release he was automatically reconscripted. Give three weeks for release, 30 days to delay volunteering and it works out just about right.
Michael W. Harvey Auburn, private Apr 1861 discharged 16 Sep 1861, re-enlisted as private Oct 1861 until discharged Aug 1862. Re-enlisted as private Jan 1862.
Sounds not too healthy. Conscripted by the National Act in April, 1862.
Robert Yancey Jones Opelika, Fall 1861 had Typhoid fever and discharged. Re-enlisted in Fall of 1861 until the end of the six months for which said troops were enlisted and discharged. Re-enlisted in Spring 1862.
Sent home for illness. Conscripted in April 1862 and chose to volunteer to avoid service with a strange regiment which most likely would have been one with a high turnover of casualties. Smart boy.
The greatest tragedy in our countries history.
So in other words, rather than admitting that your "rule" about conscription was overly broad, factually inaccurate, and historically unsubstantiated, you respond by coming up with an excuse for every violation of it. Then again, I suppose that is how history "works" to somebody who believes Congress was passing a wartime revenue measure over a year before the shots were even fired, eh Mortin?
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