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Terri's Fight - (Daily Thread/Updates) November 8 -10
Various | November 7, 2003 | sweetliberty

Posted on 11/07/2003 7:54:47 PM PST by sweetliberty

TERRI'S FIGHT
(Thread 6 - November 8-10, 2003)
(Link back to thread 5 - Nov. 5-7)

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Contained in Thread 4:

Link to article on Michael Schiavo from hometown newspaper, information on death by starvation and dehydration, information on hospice eligibility and hospice and medicare/medicaid fraud, e-mail address for Judge Greer, transcript of Larry King Live interview with Michael Schiavo and George Felos, Terri's address at the hospice and the address for the foundation, to send cards for Terri's birthday (December 3), transcript of O'Reilly interview with Kate Adamson, e-mail addresses for Florida legislature, transcript of Abrams Report interview with George Felos and Pam Anderson, transcription of Terri's bone scan, legalese for dummies version of Gov. Bush's motion to dismiss Sciavo's suit against the Constitutionality of Terri's Law, link to FatherOfLiberty's research on HBOT (Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy), links to ACLJ involvement in Schiavo case and Father Rob Johansen's daily update.

There are four other relevant posts that I want to highlight here in case anyone missed them or didn't get pinged. These are a general Terri thread troll alert, an especially thoughtful post about the sincere effort that FReepers are making in Terri's behalf, the Father's Love Letter , and remarks made by Jim Robinson on this issue and reposted here by lonevoice.

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Click on pic for Terri's website

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This thread serves as a place for posting all new general information and references, along with links following Terri's case, plus information on cable news and talk radio shows dealing with the issue, court cases and press releases. This is also the place to post contact information, prayers and general discussion.

If you have something that qualifies as BREAKING NEWS or FRONT PAGE NEWS, please post it on a separate thread in that category in order to give it maximum exposure and then post a link to the article/thread here so that it will be included in the next update of links. Also, if you post links to articles from original sources and there is also a thread on FR, please link to the FR thread. Many original links become corrupt over time and we want to be able to access the information at will.

There was a tremendous amount of information posted on the previous thread. For anyone who hasn't been following the daily threads, links to relevant posts and information from the previous thread are contained in the body of the present one. I have found that very helpful in trying to find something later. You people are doing a spectacular job of getting information out and also in helping to keep all of us updated here. What a great joint effort. This fight, to me, illustrates beautifully what Free Republic is about and what it means to be a FReeper. Way to go FRiends. Keep up the good work!

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Latest threads On Terri's Case

Pro-Life Group Questions 'Quality of Life' Premise in Schiavo Case

Judge Lets Parents Challenge Custody of Terri Schiavo

Dean blasts governor over Schiavo case

Husband Must Defend His Guardianship of Terri Schiavo

Judge Bans Terri Schiavo's Parents From Legal Battle

Dean 'Appalled' That Florida Lawmakers Saved Schiavo

A Woman's Life Versus an Inept Press (Nat Hentoff on Terri Schiavo

Terri Schiavo Case: Gov. Bush Asks To Meet New Guardian

Terri Schiavo Case: Creditable Witnesses & the 1st Guardian

Judge Rejects Bush Effort in Schiavo Case

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TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; Government; News/Current Events; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: attorneyfromhell; buttout; daily; euthanasia; florida; forcesofevil; georgefelos; guardianfromhell; hino; merchantsofdeath; michaelschiavo; righttolife; schiavo; schiavothread; schindler; terri; terrischiavo; terrischindler
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To: daylate-dollarshort
Till death us do part

A total of nine neurologists have also stated that Terri Schiavo is not in PVS. "It is obvious to me that Ms. Schiavo is a viable human being who is at least semi-responsive to her environment," physician Richard Neubauer stated in a May 2001 affidavit. Dr. Neubauer is a recognized expert in hyperbaric oxygen therapy, a type of treatment he believes might improve Terri's condition. "She is not brain dead nor is she in a persistent vegetative state."

301 posted on 11/08/2003 12:48:02 PM PST by nicmarlo
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To: daylate-dollarshort
Entire article reposted - sorry for the length:

What if There Is Something Going On in There?
By CARL ZIMMER

Published: September 28, 2003


Daniel Rios is 24 years old, with wavy black hair, a thick mustache and a glassy stare that seems to look both at you and through you. One day almost four years ago, while he was taking a shower, a blood vessel ruptured in his brain, and he collapsed on the bathroom floor. After emergency surgery, he lay in a coma for three weeks. When he finally opened his eyes, he could not speak or move his body; his head simply lolled. In the months that followed, the doctors monitoring him at the Center for Head Injuries at the J.F.K. Johnson Rehabilitation Institute in Edison, N.J., saw few signs that he had any meaningful mental life. Sometimes he looked as if he were crying. Other times his eyes would follow a mirror passed before his face. On his best days he was able to close his eyes on command. But those days were rare. For the most part he lay unresponsive, adrift in a neurological twilight.

One morning just over a year after his accident, Rios was taken to the Sloan Kettering Institute on Manhattan's East Side. There, in a dim room, a group of researchers placed a mask over his eyes, fixed headphones over his ears and guided his head into the bore of an M.R.I. machine. A 40-second loop of a recording made by Rios's sister Maria played through the headphones: she told him that she was there with him, that she loved him. As the sound entered his ears, the M.R.I. machine scanned his brain, mapping changes in activity. Several hours afterward, two researchers, Nicholas D. Schiff and Joy Hirsch, took a look at the images from the scan. They hadn't been sure what to expect -- Rios was among the first people in his condition to have his brain activity measured in this way -- but they certainly weren't expecting what they saw. ''We just stared at these images,'' recalls Schiff, an expert in consciousness disorders at Weill Medical College of Cornell University. ''There didn't seem to be anything missing.''

As the tape of his sister's voice played, several distinct clusters of neurons in Rios's brain had fired in a manner virtually identical to that of a healthy subject. Some clusters that became active were those known to help process spoken language, others to recall memories. Was Rios recognizing his sister's voice, remembering her? ''You couldn't tell the difference between these parts of his brain and the brain of one of my graduate students,'' says Hirsch, an expert in brain imaging at Columbia University. Even the visual centers of Rios's brain had come alive, despite the fact that his eyes were covered. It was as if his sister's words awakened his mind's eye.

To the medical world, Rios and the hundreds of thousands of other Americans who suffer from impaired consciousness present a mystery. Traditionally, there have essentially been only two ways to classify them: as comatose (eyes closed and responses limited to basic reflexes) or vegetative (eyes opening and closing in a cycle of sleeping and waking but without any sign of awareness). In either case, it has been assumed that they have no high-level thought. But Schiff, Hirsch and a small group of like-minded researchers are studying people like Rios and finding that the truth is far more complicated. Their evidence suggests that even after an injury that leaves a brain badly damaged, even after months or years with little sign of consciousness, people may still be capable of complex mental activity. ''If I say, 'Touch your nose,' and you touch your nose, and then I say 'Touch your nose' six more times, and you don't do it, how do we account for the one time you did?'' asks Joseph T. Giacino, a neuropsychologist who collaborates with Schiff and Hirsch.

Last year in the journal Neurology, Giacino and 10 co-authors accounted for that touch of the nose -- and other enigmatic hints of awareness they have observed -- by proposing a new category of consciousness: the minimally conscious state. By their reckoning, a vast number of people who might once have been considered vegetative actually have hidden reserves of mental activity. And as the study of Rios suggests, brain scans may be able to help scientists eavesdrop on their inner world. ''It's free speech for people who have no speech,'' Hirsch says.


The implications of this research, both for medical ethics and practical policy, are potentially huge. Traumatic brain injuries are a significant health problem in the United States, but the study and treatment of them are clouded with a sense of hopelessness, a feeling that consciousness is too mysterious to be understood. When faced with patients in a vegetative state, doctors can do little more than wait to see if they wake up. No treatment has ever been definitively shown to help patients recover consciousness, and doctors can't predict which patients will emerge from a vegetative state and which won't. If patients don't show signs of recovery in a few weeks, they usually wind up at home with their families or in nursing homes, and they rarely see a neurologist again. In 1976, in a famous court case, the parents of Karen Ann Quinlan, a woman who had been in a vegetative state for about a year, won the right to take her off a ventilator (after which she lived until 1985). ''There's a point where people give up'' and discontinue aggressive treatment, says Joseph J. Fins, chief of the division of medical ethics at Weill Medical College. ''The question is, Are we giving up too soon on the ones who might become more functional?'' Schiff and his colleagues say that the answer, in too many cases, may be yes.

A coma is what people tend to think of when they think of impaired consciousness. But most comas don't last long. After a few weeks, those who manage to survive a brain injury either wake up or shift to a vegetative state. Last year, Pedro Almodovar's movie ''Talk to Her'' introduced many viewers to the vegetative state, centering its story on two women suffering from brain injuries. Their peaceful slumber, unfortunately, doesn't capture the reality of the condition. People in vegetative states may keep their eyes open for much of the day, sometimes appearing to fix their gaze on you. They may startle their loved ones with an occasional groan or sob. Their limbs may curl up in spasms or swing around in constant motion. Some people eventually leave the vegetative state and regain consciousness, while others live for decades without showing any sign of awareness.

Nine years ago, when he was a young resident at New York Presbyterian Hospital, Schiff began working under Fred Plum, one of the neurologists who first recognized the ''persistent vegetative state'' in 1972. By the early 90's, technology was becoming powerful enough to offer a glimpse of what was happening in the vegetative brain, and Plum put Schiff in charge of a project to scan vegetative patients. After a long, often frustrating struggle to find patients to study, filling out reams of paperwork and coping with suspicion and indifference, Schiff and his colleagues published their results last year in the journal Brain.

Their findings were remarkable. Among other tests they conducted, they used a technology known as positron emission tomography (PET) to estimate how much energy the brains of their subjects were using. One subject, a 49-year-old woman who had been in a vegetative state for 25 years, would say something every few days -- often a curse word. Overall, the woman's brain was using less energy than the brain of someone under deep anesthesia, but some regions of her brain were running at close to normal, including the neural network that produces language. Those regions were still producing words, long after the woman's consciousness disappeared. Another subject was a 42-year-old man who had been in a vegetative state for seven years; he would groan and clench his teeth when he was touched or heard a loud noise but appeared to be soothed on occasion by his mother's voice or soft music. Schiff discovered that one area still functioning in the man's brain was associated with listening to music and recognizing a voice's emotional inflections. And in the truly exceptional case of one 25-year-old man who exhibited no physical responses at all, Schiff found that the patient's brain used almost as much energy as that of a conscious person.

The results of the study offered hints about the nature of consciousness. High-level thought -- like language and memory -- occurs in networks of neurons located at the surface of the brain in a thin layer of tissue called the cortex. These networks also form loops, however, that dip deep within the brain, where they converge and then return to the surface. According to a theory proposed by Rodolfo Llinas of New York University, a special set of neurons deep in the brain synchronizes the activity of the loops of higher thought. The harmony of all the different thought processes gives rise to a coherence that we call consciousness. Schiff and his colleagues say they suspect that when a number of these loops or the region that synchronizes them is damaged, the brain slips into a vegetative state. Yet even after extensive brain damage, they argue, some of the loops may still function, though in isolation -- like fragments of mind.

In searching for subjects for his study, Schiff discovered the Center for Head Injuries in Edison, where Rios is treated. Neuropsychologists there have specialized in tracking how patients recover from brain injuries, moving from comas toward consciousness. Joseph Giacino, the lead author of the Neurology paper that defined the minimally conscious state, is the center's associate director of neuropsychology. He is one of the few doctors who focus on both the study and the long-term treatment of patients with impaired consciousness. ''You come in in a coma, and you can get your treatment all the way to when you're back at work and you still need some follow-up,'' he explained to me on a visit to the center in July.

Giacino has spent the past 15 years developing ways to measure objectively how people recover from comas. It's not enough for a father to declare that his daughter is understanding everything he says; a turn of the head or a squeeze of the hand can just as easily be an unconscious reflex as an act of will. And pessimism can be just as misleading as optimism: if a doctor overlooks a legitimate sign of consciousness, he may peg a patient as a hopeless case.

At Giacino's center, patients repeatedly go through the same standardized battery of tests. They are asked to look at objects -- a plastic banana, for example -- and identify them. They are shown a hairbrush and asked how to use it. They answer with a glance at cards marked ''yes'' and ''no,'' with a thumbs-up or, when possible, with their voices. Giacino records whether his patients can communicate and whether they communicate reliably. ''If I ask you, 'Are you a man?' and you say yes, and a few questions later I ask you if you're a woman, and you say yes, you're not a reliable communicator,'' he says. Adding up the results of his tests, Giacino gives each of his patients a score indicating a diagnosis somewhere on a spectrum between coma and consciousness.

Over months and years of administering and readministering his tests to patients as often as every week, Giacino is able to chart patients' scores in fascinating graphs. Some are straightforward climbs to consciousness, others level off at less-than-conscious plateaus. Still others form a series of conscious peaks and vegetative valleys. These variegated landscapes were Giacino's inspiration for the minimally conscious state, which describes patients who show signs of awareness but are still far from full consciousness.

Giacino works hard to tease out hints of awareness in a patient. Sometimes he can actually coax patients into consciousness by working his fingers deep into their muscles. Neurologists have found that the stimulation of the nerve endings in the muscles can be powerful enough to arouse activity in networks of neurons in the brain. Giacino has a particular knack for the technique, and after a few seconds of muscle work, he can get some minimally conscious patients to speak. Some tell him their names, others tell him to leave them alone. As soon as he removes his hands, they slip away again.

Marie Conniff has seen Giacino work this transformation many times. On New Year's Day in 1998, her son Scott was on duty as a New York policeman when a drunken driver rammed his car. Today, Scott sits in a wheelchair, his gaze often drifting across the room. Sometimes he laughs, sometimes he growls like a bear. He gives hard kicks to a big orange beach ball hanging from the ceiling. When Giacino begins to work her son's muscles, Conniff finds herself startled at how well Giacino can bring Scott back, in the look on his face, the clarity of his movements. ''I see a lot of what I had before he got hurt,'' she told me.

Conniff raises a profound question: Is a part of her son still there? Schiff began to gather some clues to this question when he switched from studying vegetative patients to people in minimally conscious states. He and Giacino selected a few patients at the Center for Head Injuries whom Giacino had identified as minimally conscious. They arranged for the patients to have PET scans to measure their brain metabolism, as Schiff had done in his earlier study on vegetative patients. But they also collaborated with Joy Hirsch to probe their subjects' brains with M.R.I. scanners, which can measure moment-by-moment changes in brain activity.

Rios provided some of the first astonishing results of this second project. And when the researchers ran the same study on another minimally conscious patient, they got even better results. ''It certainly raises the question that there's more 'there' there than we've been giving them credit for,'' says Joseph Fins, who has been exploring the ethical dimension of Schiff's new research. ''It's very suggestive that there's consciousness.''

Schiff is reluctant to declare prematurely that these images are pictures of consciousness, but he and his colleagues are considering two important clues. One is the overall metabolism of Rios's brain. While undergoing an M.R.I., Rios's brain became active in response to sounds and touch in much the same manner as a conscious brain. But when the researchers took a PET scan of his brain at rest, they got a very different picture. A healthy brain burns a lot of calories even when not processing any particular information from its senses. Rios's brain at rest used about as much energy as someone in a pure vegetative state.

The other clue emerged when the scientists played Rios the tape of his sister's voice backward. When uninjured people hear backward voices, the regions of their brains that control language become more active than when they listen to recordings played forward. Their brains instantly recognize that the signal is unusual and respond by working harder to decode it. But when Rios heard his sister's voice played in reverse, his brain barely responded at all.

Schiff says he suspects that Rios's brain works very differently not only from a vegetative brain but also from an uninjured one. Rios still has a healthy number of loops of higher thought that the scans suggest may be able to work in harmony when he hears his sister's voice. But for some reason, it appears that these loops shut down in the absence of familiar stimuli. His brain doesn't seem to have the strength, as it were, to reflect continually on itself and its surroundings the way a healthy brain does, ready to engage the world in an instant. An ambiguous signal isn't enough to provoke him.

It's hard not to speculate about what it's like -- if that's even a meaningful notion here -- to inhabit this sort of mind. You wake up every morning but feel as if you're under a deep anesthesia. Images enter your eyes, and sounds enter your ears, but most of them reverberate through your brain without triggering any awareness. From time to time, you join the outside world at the sight of a familiar face or at the words of a loved one. Memories and meaning emerge. But as soon as that face or those words disappear, you sink back into darkness. Perhaps you can't even tell you're sinking -- perhaps your awareness leaps from one isolated moment to the next.

Still, there are plenty of neurologists who doubt whether any of this research on the minimally conscious state has any real significance. Alan D. Shewmon, chief of pediatric neurology at the Olive View-U.C.L.A. Medical Center in Los Angeles, has called Giacino's category ''an inaccurate name for an invalid concept.'' He argues that there is no scientific way to draw a line between full consciousness and minimal consciousness, and says he worries that the definition is so broad that it easily encompasses people who are conscious but suffer from other neurological disorders that impair their ability to communicate.

Schiff and Giacino say that as more of their studies on people like Rios are published, they will silence their critics. By understanding the biology underlying the minimally conscious state, they say, it may also be possible to help people in this condition expand their moments of awareness. Drugs that boost the brain's supply of certain neurotransmitters, for instance, might be able to keep their networks turned on longer. Schiff says he hopes that within a decade researchers will be able to experiment with implanted electrodes that act like pacemakers for consciousness. By emitting regular pulses of electricity, they could keep the brain's networks active and synchronized. ''What's got me still willing to do all this is that you could help someone on the borderline to cross over,'' Schiff says. ''To live on their own at home, to have fun, to have a life.''

n the years since Karen Ann Quinlan's parents had her taken off her ventilator, courts have also acknowledged the rights of families to remove feeding tubes from vegetative patients. And as research on the minimally conscious state has emerged, the courts have been asked, in recent cases, to judge whether the category describes a life that's always worth living.

On one visit to the Center for Head Injuries this summer, I was privileged to witness firsthand why Schiff and Giacino can be so hopeful about a seemingly hopeless condition. I joined Schiff, Giacino, Fins and some of their colleagues as they made rounds, and at noon we reached Rios's room. More than three and a half years had passed since he collapsed in his shower, and he was still considered to be in a minimally conscious state. Physical therapists had been regularly working Rios's limbs, and his sister had been caring for him at home on some weekends. Even with this attention, the statistical odds were against his ever reaching a higher level of consciousness. ''He hasn't crossed that line,'' Giacino said before we went into the room.

Rios sat in a wheelchair, his hands curled to his chest, his left eye drifting. He wore a broad, unchanging smile. Over the years, his walls had become crowded with photographs, prayers and a map of Puerto Rico.

The doctors introduced themselves to Rios. ''Do you remember me?'' Schiff asked. ''I'm Dr. Schiff from New York. I saw you with your sister Maria a couple times.'' Rios continued to smile.

Giacino stepped close in front of Rios. ''So, Dan, if it's O.K. with you, we want to do a bit of examination.''

With his right eye, Rios was able to track a mirror that Giacino moved in front of his face. ''Dan, look toward my voice,'' Giacino said, stepping to Rios's left side. Rios's eye moved left. ''Now look away.'' He looked away. Giacino showed Rios cards marked ''yes'' and ''no.'' ''Now look at the card marked 'no.''' Rios looked at the card marked ''no.''

The other doctors buzzed with excitement. ''This is three years out,'' Schiff said. Giacino switched the cards and asked Rios to look at the card that said ''yes.'' Rios looked at the card. Giacino did the test a third time, and Rios got it right again.

''That's a hundred percent,'' Schiff said. ''Let's ask him some questions.''

''Dan, are you in a bathtub right now?'' Giacino asked.

Rios looked at the ''no'' card.

''Are the lights on?''

Yes.

''He said yes, he mouthed it,'' Fins said.

''Do you feel sad right now?'' Giacino asked.

Yes.

''Do you feel happy right now?''

Yes.

''He has both feelings,'' Schiff offered.

''At the same time,'' Fins added. ''He's in the moment.''

''Let me take it back down a level,'' Giacino said. He didn't want to rely on interpretations to pinpoint Rios's level of awareness. He asked Rios if his name was Bill. No. Giacino switched the cards between his hands. ''Is your name Jason?'' No. ''Is your name Dan?'' Yes.

''Ask him if I'm happy or sad,'' Schiff asked. He put on a giant pout.

''Is Dr. Schiff happy?'' No.

Schiff broke into a grin. Rios broke into his grin again. ''I'd say he's emerged now,'' Schiff said.

''O.K.,'' Giacino said. ''I'm going to take it up a level.'' He wrote words on two new cards: ''happy'' and ''sad.'' He held them up in front of Rios, and before he could ask a question, Rios looked at ''happy.'' He moved his lips, silently saying the word.

''Yeah, that's it!'' Schiff said.

''Well, maybe,'' Giacino said. He kept his eyes on Rios. ''I'm going to ask you to look at the word that I say. Dan, look at the word that says 'sad.''' Rios looked at ''sad.'' Giacino asked him twice more; twice more, Rios looked the right way.

''That's it,'' Giacino said. ''He's reading.''

He turned back to Rios. ''How are you feeling inside? Look at the card how you're feeling.''

Rios mouthed, ''Happy.''

By all measures, Rios had officially emerged from the minimally conscious state. As the doctors said goodbye to him, filing out of the room into the hallway, Schiff was already wondering aloud if Rios should be brought back to the lab for study. He wanted to know what had happened to Rios's brain, how his neural networks had reorganized themselves into something closer to full consciousness. ''I was just thinking we should try to redo all those studies,'' Schiff said. ''He's got to be different.''

''He was pushing us to go to a higher level,'' Fins said. ''He's aware of himself, he's happy, but it took a lot of skill to see it. If he ended up in a nursing home and started doing things like this, no one would have noticed.''

Carl Zimmer is the author of ''Evolution: The Triumph of an Idea'' and the coming ''Soul Made Flesh.''

All I'm saying is that we really don't know what is going on in the mind of someone supposedly in a PVS. And I believe I read somewhere, no, I don't remember exactly where, that brain scans showed that Karen Ann Quinlin (sp?) had no cerebral cortex left, yet during her autopsy, well, surprise, surprise, it turns out that she did.

You will continue to believe what ever you wish as will I. I just don't have the faith in "experts" that you have.
302 posted on 11/08/2003 12:50:53 PM PST by KosmicKitty (There are no atheists in the foxholes!!)
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To: sweetliberty
I'm sure you saw this, but I plead ignorance, completely: Terri snatched from hospital

Posted: October 23, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern

Attorney Patricia Anderson's greatest fear was realized yesterday when she learned that Michael Schiavo had removed his wife Terri Schindler-Schiavo from Morton Plant Hospital in Clearwater, Fla., where she was taken to have her feeding tube reinstalled, and returned clandestinely to the Woodside Facility of the Hospice of the Florida Sun Coast in Pinellas Park where she has been a patient for over three years.

303 posted on 11/08/2003 12:51:30 PM PST by nicmarlo
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To: sweetliberty
You are doing a wonderful job of organizing all this!
304 posted on 11/08/2003 12:54:00 PM PST by sfRummygirl (SAVE TERRI SHINDLER SCHIAVO...www.terrisfight.org)
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To: No More Gore Anymore
I think that Felos and Schiavo are personally much too preoccupied to be trolling websites with the kind of efforts you are suggesting. I do not doubt, however, that they have "eyes" here and other places that are making a lot of noise. Some of those people may take it upon themselves to run interference, but I honestly think we need to be objective about it. Yes, there are definitely some trolls here, and there have been a few who have been seeming to make an effort to divert us from our purpose, but if we spend too much time paying attention to them and getting others to pay attention to them, they have basically succeeded at ciphoning off energy we could better use to other ends.

As far as email and telephone campaigns, I think we each need to make our own personal decisions as to who WE are inclined to contact. We should weigh the information put out there and never go off half-cocked just because someone else says it's a good idea. Look at the suggestion on it's own merit, and do what you think is the right thing to do. We are not all called to respond to EVERYTHING.

I believe in trusting a person until they give me a reason not to, and to always try to extend the benefit of the doubt. Some people can mean well, but make a lot of mistakes in their zealousness. Those who are honestly up to no good are generally outed pretty quickly. Even those who are actively working at being deceptive slip up and often contradict themselves or are caught in subtle lies. Never underestimate the skill of a group of dedicated FReepers. We have a finely tuned BS detector. Very little deception gets by that kind of scrutiny.

305 posted on 11/08/2003 12:55:54 PM PST by sweetliberty ("Having the right to do a thing is not at all the same thing as being right in doing it.")
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To: nicmarlo
In other words, this Wolfson, who is Terri's Guardian Ad Litem, is connected to the Hospice that is warehousing Terri?
That sure sounds like conflict of interest to me.
Are Terri's lawyers aware of this?
306 posted on 11/08/2003 12:57:43 PM PST by mickie
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To: nicmarlo; pc93
"See this link wherein someone has done a lot of research regarding him, Hospice Florida Suncoast, and other information about this case, here Life Ribbon:"

That is our own PC93 who has put up those pages and launched the life ribbon campaign. He has done a great deal here to keep us informed and provide e-mail addresses for us. The life ribbon banner is also at the top of this thread. He has also been at the vigil part of the time.

307 posted on 11/08/2003 12:59:31 PM PST by sweetliberty ("Having the right to do a thing is not at all the same thing as being right in doing it.")
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To: nicmarlo
Agree, this mean the K.W. letter/statement to the Not so st.pete times is MORE TRUE, the picture and puzzle is
becoming more and MORE clear.

MS, had more than 3...., getting that 4th,5th,6th,++++
is important.....I like the PA idea ...

Also note the dates...The two former GIRLfriends said MS
changed after case in 92...
Terri was taken-down by _______ on FEB of 1990....
So, between Feb 1990 and 1992....MS had 2 girlfriends in that 2 year gap, maybe MORE !! more pc's of the puzzle falling into place just fine...
308 posted on 11/08/2003 12:59:49 PM PST by Orlando (* Dec. 3rd is Theresa M. SCHINDLER Birthday * Don't call her Schiavo anymore,please.)
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To: patriot40068
It would be interesting to know if Brashers had to get a restraining order to keep Michael from stalking her. Just another side thought.

I'm still looking for an earlier article where she was refusing to testify.... she said she wasn't afraid of Michael just afraid he would stalk her again.

I don't believe a person would stalk another without intent to either do bodily harm or intimidate in another way. I've been in a stalking situation and I believe the reason they couldn't get her to testify was because she was afraid of Michael.

309 posted on 11/08/2003 12:59:52 PM PST by Krodg
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To: Lone Voice in the hinterlands
Here's a silly question....where are the hinterlands?
310 posted on 11/08/2003 1:00:16 PM PST by sfRummygirl (SAVE TERRI SHINDLER SCHIAVO...www.terrisfight.org)
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To: sweetliberty
Yes, me too please. Add to ping list.
311 posted on 11/08/2003 1:01:26 PM PST by sfRummygirl (SAVE TERRI SHINDLER SCHIAVO...www.terrisfight.org)
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To: Ohioan from Florida
Hey, now, some of us natural blondes are not bimbos.....(please ignore my last night gopher postings)....
312 posted on 11/08/2003 1:03:51 PM PST by sfRummygirl (SAVE TERRI SHINDLER SCHIAVO...www.terrisfight.org)
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To: nicmarlo
I know you came back a bit late on this. There were a lot of us following this case "play by play" once the order came down for the feeding tube to be removed. The live action on this site was astounding. I'm sorry that you missed it. This was one of the long threads at that point:

TERRI SCHIAVO MISSING - REMOVED FROM HOSPITAL W/O FAMILY'S CONSENT [Update: She's back at Hospice]

313 posted on 11/08/2003 1:05:17 PM PST by sweetliberty ("Having the right to do a thing is not at all the same thing as being right in doing it.")
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To: Wampus SC
Fellow cheapskate!
314 posted on 11/08/2003 1:06:26 PM PST by sfRummygirl (SAVE TERRI SHINDLER SCHIAVO...www.terrisfight.org)
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To: Coral Snake
HA-HA! I like that.
315 posted on 11/08/2003 1:07:16 PM PST by sfRummygirl (SAVE TERRI SHINDLER SCHIAVO...www.terrisfight.org)
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To: sweetliberty
Regarding Trolls and Terri threads.

Aren't these the same type people that stand vigils outside execution chambers (unfortunately on the wrong side of the barbed wire) holding candles, chanting whatever in the hope of sparing a murderers life?

The same type people who spout platitudes of how everyone should be given an equal chance?

The same ones who regularly chant that they are always out to "help" the poor, the down-troden, the helpless?

Those people?

316 posted on 11/08/2003 1:08:23 PM PST by Budge ( <>< .)
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To: No More Gore Anymore
Bingo.
317 posted on 11/08/2003 1:09:09 PM PST by sfRummygirl (SAVE TERRI SHINDLER SCHIAVO...www.terrisfight.org)
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To: sfRummygirl
Hmmm, I could have sworn you were already on it. My apologies, and you are now.
318 posted on 11/08/2003 1:09:11 PM PST by sweetliberty ("Having the right to do a thing is not at all the same thing as being right in doing it.")
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To: Budge
"The same type people who spout platitudes of how everyone should be given an equal chance?"

Be fair now Budge. I'm sure that if Terri dies and Michael is eventually prosecuted for murder, that they will be there for him when he is on death row.

319 posted on 11/08/2003 1:11:26 PM PST by sweetliberty ("Having the right to do a thing is not at all the same thing as being right in doing it.")
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To: KosmicKitty

Having had other friends die of terminal illnesses, I know that Felos has his cause and effect mixed up. You stop eating because your body is dying. You don't stop eating to
make your body die.

Yes, you said it.
320 posted on 11/08/2003 1:17:28 PM PST by sfRummygirl (SAVE TERRI SHINDLER SCHIAVO...www.terrisfight.org)
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To: KosmicKitty
Re Post #302
WOW! That's all I can say, WOW!!!

God bless those doctors and nurses. Think how happy that young man's family is right now.

Many people have reported that they have experienced terri reacting to them. I do believe it is possible that she is minimully conscience. I can't understand her husband's wish to "kill" her. Wht a diffrence her life might be like today if her settlement mney ws spent on this type of re-hab instead of lawyers fees.

Thank you so much for posting it. From time to time if it seems appropriate please re-post this. People need to know this and you can't count on everyone hunting through all the threads to find this.

Many many thanks for posting this.
321 posted on 11/08/2003 1:17:49 PM PST by Lone Voice in the hinterlands
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To: Orlando
We now have the fuel (Data) from the May,2001 news article
that MS HAD two children....now add the 3rd on Oct 31st, 2003 (+/-) on date of birth...

So, that makes 3 children from TWO women.....

We need to put this out to the public, and media..
It's important....

The question now...is MS paying child support on the 1st child ?, and when was the first child borned ? 13-14 yrs ago.....which might explain the fights, and the talk from Terri about Divorce, just before that night in Feb 25th of
1990.....

This is becoming more and MORE a attempted murder case, by the minute....
322 posted on 11/08/2003 1:18:29 PM PST by Orlando (* Dec. 3rd is Theresa M. SCHINDLER Birthday * Don't call her Schiavo anymore,please.)
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To: lonevoice
"Radio host, George Noory, wants to do a 1-hour interview with Dr. William Hammesfahr, the neurologist who has testified on Terri's behalf."

Is this the guy that is on Coast to Coast? I never listen to it anymore. Have you looked to see if Dr. Hammersfahr has a website? I'm sure he probably does, and that might be a better place to make direct contact with him. Something you might want to consider, though, is that if this is coast to coast, many people would consider them to on the fringe, and given that Felos has made a concentrated effort to discredit Dr. Hammersfahr by casting him as a "quack," it might not be in his, or Terri's, best interest to be on a program that people might see in that light. Just a thought. Use your own judgement.

323 posted on 11/08/2003 1:21:08 PM PST by sweetliberty ("Having the right to do a thing is not at all the same thing as being right in doing it.")
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To: sweetliberty
here are some fax machines in washington, dc, you can send to via these e-mails:

remote-printer.AARP_Media_Relations@12024342588.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.ABA_Commission_on_Mental_and_Physical_Disability_LaW@12026621032.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.BarbaraArnwine_Lawyers_Committee_for_Civil_Rights@12027830857.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.Dick_Cheney@12024562710.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.Disability_Rights_Section_Civil_Rights_Division_US_DOJ@12023071198.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.George_W_Bush_The_White_House@12024562461.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.George_W_Bush_The_White_House@12024562883.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.Honorable_Barbara_Mikulski@12022248858.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.Honorable_Bill_Frist@12022281264.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.Honorable_Edward_Kennedy@12022242417.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.Honorable_Jack_Reed@12022244680.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.Honorable_Jeff_Bingaman@12022242852.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.Honorable_Jeff_Sessions@12022243149.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.Honorable_Judd_Gregg@12022244952.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.Honorable_Michael_Enzi@12022280359.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.Honorable_Sam_Brownback@12022281265.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.Honorable_Susan_Collins@12022242693.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.Honorable_Tom_Harkin@12022249369.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.House_Representative_Corrine_Brown@12022252256.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.House_Representative_Henry_Hyde@12022251166.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.HumanRightsWatch_WomensRightsProject@12023710124.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.John_Wodatch@12023071198.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.June_Hirsch@12024780854.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.Karen_Keenan@12023932245.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.Kenneth_McIntyre@12028320659.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.Legislative_Office_Amnesty_Int@12025467142.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.Log_Cabin_Republicans@12023475224.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.NAPAS_Board_of_Directors@12024089520.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.Nan_Aron@12028226068.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.National_Council_on_Disability@12022722022.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.Robert_Bernstein@12022230409.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.Romaine_Thomas@12024347710.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.US_Dept_Health_and_Human_Services_Office_of_Asst_Secretary@12024015770.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.US_Senator_Bob_Graham@12022242237.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.US_Senator_John_Werner@12022246295.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.Women_Law_and_Development_Int@12024637480.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.dredf_Defense_Fund_Iinc@12027757465.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.dredf_Government_Affairs@12028332116.iddd.tpc.int,
remote-printer.john_ashcroft@12025141009.iddd.tpc.int
324 posted on 11/08/2003 1:22:17 PM PST by pc93 (Please visit http://bellsouthpwp.net/p/c/pc93/terri_schindler_life_ribbon_campaign.htm)
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To: daylate-dollarshort
While I see your point in posting this article, I also think it is worth noting that as a young married adult, it is possible to say things casually under certain circumstances that when push came to shove one wouldn't want to be held to as if they were sworn statements. For instance, if the idea that Terri was bulimic were true, then it would probably also be true that she would be trying her best to fit in. I know that I have, especially in the first 10 years of marriage, tried to "fit in" with my husband's family during gatherings. If someone held a particularly strong view, I usually nodded my head in agreement so as not to make waves, so to speak. I generally tried to agree with the things they said, even if it wasn't something I might REALLY choose for myself. I think the case could be made that the possibility exists, and therefore cannot be discounted, that this may have been Terri's situation.

How many times have you ever uttered the words, "That will never happen to me," and then that very thing does? When it's a matter of life and death, I think it is wrong to hold someone accountable for something they said in conversation as if it were a sworn statement or a document. That's why people are always warned to read things before they sign them. Since Terri had NOTHING written, this case should never have been handled in this manner, and Michael should have never been given this much authority over Terri without her having had a guardian-ad-litem in the court for her at all times. This is just wrong.
325 posted on 11/08/2003 1:28:18 PM PST by Ohioan from Florida
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To: nicmarlo
I asked a troll on another thread to PROVE their statement that Terri has no cerebral cortex and to NOT use the one presented by Flea felos on LKL.

Guess what? I was ignored.

Surprise, surprise, surprise!

326 posted on 11/08/2003 1:31:17 PM PST by Budge ( <>< .)
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To: daylate-dollarshort
Go away, troll.
327 posted on 11/08/2003 1:31:20 PM PST by sfRummygirl (SAVE TERRI SHINDLER SCHIAVO...www.terrisfight.org)
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To: mickie
Yes, I think I read somewhere that Terri's parents (and her attorney) know all about Wolfson's affiliation with the Hospice...they're not happy about Wolfson's appointment.
328 posted on 11/08/2003 1:33:08 PM PST by nicmarlo
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To: sweetliberty; pc93
That is our own PC93

Hah! great work, PC! thanks for bringing me up to date about this and your other posts, sweetliberty.....I'll be looking at them later.

329 posted on 11/08/2003 1:36:02 PM PST by nicmarlo
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To: sfRummygirl
The Hinterlands? It is not a specific geographic area like the Rocky Mountians or anything like that. Here is the dictionalry definition.

1 : a region lying inland from a coast
2 a : a region remote from urban areas b : a region lying beyond major metropolitan or cultural centers

The middle of the state of New York could be considered the Hinterlands if it was rural in nature. I think of it not only geographically but state of mind as well. And plus probably values.


330 posted on 11/08/2003 1:36:29 PM PST by Lone Voice in the hinterlands
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To: sweetliberty
And I'm very sad to say, one of the idiots who posted that he agrees with dean, and admires him on this issue, actually is a real freeper. I met him at a rally meeting. Not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but nonetheless, a freeper.
Yuk.
331 posted on 11/08/2003 1:37:13 PM PST by sfRummygirl (SAVE TERRI SHINDLER SCHIAVO...www.terrisfight.org)
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To: KosmicKitty
I took the time to read your post. Definitely, worth it.
332 posted on 11/08/2003 1:37:27 PM PST by FR_addict
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To: Budge
I asked a troll on another thread to PROVE their statement that Terri has no cerebral cortex and to NOT use the one presented by Flea felos on LKL.

Very good, Budge. Yes, trolls like to rely on the death doctor's evidence. (That's the neurologist they're using as their expert witness.)

333 posted on 11/08/2003 1:37:39 PM PST by nicmarlo
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To: sweetliberty
No need to explain. I don't have a big ego and have no need for self-gratification.
334 posted on 11/08/2003 1:40:03 PM PST by Krodg
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To: No More Gore Anymore
There are definitely two classes of trolls. You are right. I noticed that a few were banned, too. I am 100% positive that at least one or two are linked with felos or MS.
335 posted on 11/08/2003 1:40:22 PM PST by sfRummygirl (SAVE TERRI SHINDLER SCHIAVO...www.terrisfight.org)
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To: atruelady; sweetliberty; JustPiper; spokeshave; deannadurbin; tuckrdout
>>Poor Terri didn't even have the benefit of a morphine I.V. drip. They just gave her shots regularly.


BINGO! If they regularly give Terri MORPHINE or similar
painkillers for WHATEVER EXCUSE, she WILL get addicted.

THEN, whenever an important medical test is approaching,
REMOVE her morphine the day before, and GUARANTEE that Terri
will test out badly!
336 posted on 11/08/2003 1:40:44 PM PST by Future Useless Eater (Freedom_Loving_Engineer)
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To: sweetliberty
I disagree, It's important to get this information(s)
out to the public, and let's not forget C2C have over 10 million listeners worldwide, the media is working aginst
us, so it's important to get the word out any way we can...

Cops/and many law enforcement officals and military, people
just to name a few love listening. This event in Clearwater
effects everybody in this planet.

I know of Doctors, RNs, LPNs,EMTs, Fire,lawyers,truck drivers,factory workers, etc..etc..profesors, scientists,etc...elcted-officals listen in too.....and judges...the more LIGHT we SHINE the better....

It's important that the WORLD knows...The truth

While you sleep at night, we are out-here protecting YOU
and working at nights....It's the Number 1 show at nights..
WORLDWIDE ....
337 posted on 11/08/2003 1:40:49 PM PST by Orlando (* Dec. 3rd is Theresa M. SCHINDLER Birthday * Don't call her Schiavo anymore,please.)
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To: Lone Voice in the hinterlands
I gotta go get some housework done. I'll catch up on this message board later tonight. It is so darn addicting but here in the Hinterlands I am far away from Terri and I have to try and keep up my own life as well. It will be hard becasue I know as I clean I will be thinking of that article about what was it called partial consciensness and it will probably take me longer to get my work done. That article weighs heavy on my heart, I appreciate the person who posted it.
338 posted on 11/08/2003 1:41:01 PM PST by Lone Voice in the hinterlands
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To: Lone Voice in the hinterlands
Oh! (blush) thank you. I never heard that before.
I miss upstate New York. Grew up going to frost valley, I did.
339 posted on 11/08/2003 1:46:14 PM PST by sfRummygirl (SAVE TERRI SHINDLER SCHIAVO...www.terrisfight.org)
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To: Lone Voice in the hinterlands; All
What if Geaorge is paying Michael? Say george is writing a book and he is paying Michael Schiavo as a source. In this way Michael gets the money out of terri's account, over to Felos, adn Felos funnels some back to Michael.
____________________________________________________
I have felt this all along - not to mention the fact (and it's been mentioned by others) that the original $700,000 trust fund, invested even very conservatively in 1993, would have yielded additional major gains. Where is THAT money? I thought Trustees have to provide an annual report to the court (public?) each year regarding what goes in and out of the trust. I assume NGFBHINO is the Trustee, as well as Guardian. And there has to be SOME Broker/Dealer (Merrill Lynch, Raymond James, e.g.) managing the funds in the trust.
340 posted on 11/08/2003 1:46:52 PM PST by Dasaji (Today's witchcraft is tomorrow's technology.)
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To: Orlando
You might be right. I don't have a strong opinion about Coast to Coast one way or the other. I used to listen to it a lot. They have a lot of good information, but also a lot of real whacko stuff, as well as everything between the two extremes. I only posted that for the purpose of suggesting a possible reason that Hammersfahr might be reluctant to do it.
341 posted on 11/08/2003 1:46:53 PM PST by sweetliberty ("Having the right to do a thing is not at all the same thing as being right in doing it.")
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To: sweetliberty
I'll be a vigiling tonight over in Pinellas Park Hospice Woodside.
342 posted on 11/08/2003 1:49:19 PM PST by pc93 (Please visit http://bellsouthpwp.net/p/c/pc93/terri_schindler_life_ribbon_campaign.htm)
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To: sweetliberty; All
I would like to say, when I was about 2, I ate a full bottle of adult aspirins, went into convulsions, and later a coma. I was given last rites. My uncle said, although it was against hospital rules, he and other relatives were allowed in my room to say "good bye" to me. I have only a couple of memories from my hospital stay:

1. There was a light in the hospital hallway. My door was open. But the light from the hallway DID NOT come into the room; it DID NOT illuminate ANYTHING in my room, it was pitch black. This memory came to me in my dreams, almost every night, until I was about 30, when I began to think about my "dream." I asked my uncle if he knew whether or not I died, even for a few minutes. He said no, he doesn't recall that occurring, but it's possible. I told him about my memory with the bright light in the hallway/dark hospital room. To me, this was real, not just something I made up in a dream. It may have occurred while I was in a coma, therefore, I was still able to sense/see light/dark. My mother died when I was 12, so I could never ask her about this.

2. I thought there was a net over my hospital crib, because I remember feeling something like that. My uncle said there was no net, but there was an oxygen tent I was in. I assume I was still in a coma when the oxygen tent was over me. I assume when I came out of a coma four days later and was "aware" of things, it wouldn't have been necessary to continue to be in need of an oxygen tent. (But that's just my opinion.)

And so, even though I was written off by the priests and the doctors, my parents didn't have them remove the feeding tubes that must have been connected to my body.

343 posted on 11/08/2003 1:52:30 PM PST by nicmarlo
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To: KosmicKitty
Thank you for this post. This is very important that people see this.
344 posted on 11/08/2003 1:53:38 PM PST by sfRummygirl (SAVE TERRI SHINDLER SCHIAVO...www.terrisfight.org)
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To: Orlando
It needs a lie detector---and he won't take that test.
What's one little perjury to a blind biased judge?
345 posted on 11/08/2003 1:54:55 PM PST by Graymatter
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To: sweetliberty
I agree some nights are far-out-there, I agree...

Speaking of WHACKO, this event in Clearwater with MS
and Felo$ is whacko.

There is alot of power when you have 10 million ++
people praying and sending the light to Terri.

It's important to keep the night shift informed,
and involved with this horror story in Clearwater....

It effects us all....day and night....

The problem is the day shift is not well informed, we need
to work on that more.....
346 posted on 11/08/2003 1:57:36 PM PST by Orlando (* Dec. 3rd is Theresa M. SCHINDLER Birthday * Don't call her Schiavo anymore,please.)
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To: daylate-dollarshort
"This clearly showed a void in Terri's skull where her cerebral cortex should have been."

Could be the EXPERIMENTAL ELECTRO-BRAIN SURGERY complete with IMPLATED CORTEX ELECTRODE ....according to MS on Larry King caused this.....?

347 posted on 11/08/2003 1:59:06 PM PST by spokeshave (Cancel the San Jose Merc and the one way truck to Nevada)
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To: sweetliberty
I agree with you about everything except this one thing. Michael and Felos have been here, and will be again. I know with 99% certainity. I can't tell you how just now, I will sometime, but trust me... they know what is going on here, they hope for us to stop, they are disruptive. My only point is they are slick, so those freeples who don't get to follow every nook and cranny of Terri threads , I fear they make easier targets than those of us who do. I see no harm in sending out a FR suspected troll warning and letting them decide for themselves wheter a person can be trusted.

This is a war, freerepublic.com is at the forefront, these people go to sites and try to disrupt the work being done, they know where to go, and they have been watching for a while, they are not dumb so they know what freeps want to hear and how to play us, they already have disrupted things here, and they will do it more.. we need to keep reminding ourselves of that.

348 posted on 11/08/2003 1:59:25 PM PST by Diva Betsy Ross ((were it not for the brave, there would be no land of the free -))
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To: nicmarlo
Keep in mind, too, nic, that even at the time of Terri's injury, withholding nourishment and hydration was NOT standard procedure. It just wasn't done and was NOT looked at being on par with being on a ventilator or other artificial means of life supposrt. When looked at in that light, one could clearly surmise that even IF Terri had said she wouldn't want to be kept alive "like that" she couldn't have meant by a feeding tube, because that was still illegal.
349 posted on 11/08/2003 2:00:14 PM PST by sweetliberty ("Having the right to do a thing is not at all the same thing as being right in doing it.")
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To: Krodg
I'm weary from feeding trolls. We give them substance and they spew forth garbage..
350 posted on 11/08/2003 2:00:17 PM PST by Krodg
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