http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/news/state/7254764.htm
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Posted on 11/10/2003 7:29:44 PM PST by Tumbleweed_Connection
You didn't answer the question: Which God does the AL Const. refer to? Post the part of the Constitution that says it will give preference to no particular "faith" - I'll bet it doesn't use that word. This country was founded (states too) on biblical principles (bible of judeo-Christianity). I can cite hundreds of quotes that prove it - care to take up the challenge? I would love to bury you in a sea of quotes.
You ignore history and original intent. You would love nothing better than to have secular-humanism (read - atheism) as the national religion - which is precisely what the federal courts are trying to do in concert with those cretins from the ACLU. When the Consitution speaks of no established religion, it is speaking of Christian denominations, not different "faiths". The founders of the U.S. and State Constitutions would not have dreamed of even considering any other "faith" since America and all of the States were overwhelmingly (over 98%) Christian in their faith and culture.
A lie. You obviously haven't read them. Try doing a search with the words "Hindoo" or "Mohametan" and maybe you'll learn something.
You are right about one thing. It doesn't say "faith" - it is a bit more broad - "any religious sect, society, denomination, or mode of worship".
You continue with your crap attacks and your ascription of views to me. You don't know what you are talking about, as usual. You just continue to spew lies. Good day.
A lie? hahaha. I can back up my assertions - you obviously can't!
I don't have to do a search. I have read what our founders wrote about Mohamedans. Whenever the founders spoke of Mohamedans - it was in a negative light. Remember the Barbary Pirates? Furthermore, our founders mostly were of english/scottish descent with some germans and other northern Europeans. They were protestant (calvinist) Christians (238 founders out of 250 were Christians). Now, if you want to go to into a debate about it, I am armed to the teeth with quotes. Just say the word.
You are right about one thing. It doesn't say "faith" - it is a bit more broad - "any religious sect, society, denomination, or mode of worship".
Do you know what a "sect" is? This is speaking of Christianity you dolt.
Exmarine, I've posted to you before quotes from Founders explicity stating that the religion clauses in the Constitution apply to non-Christian faiths. I'm not going to waste time repeating myself to an idiot with closed ears and a closed mind. Good day.
I am the one with the FACTS - you are the one with the secular-humanist revisionism. Go ahead - Run away you revisionist secular-humanist blackguard.
You are a twister of truth. The religion clauses of the Constitution apply to Christianity. For example, Viriginia had established episcopalian religion in 1662 (following King Charles' lead) and this had to be abrogates later by Patrick Henry, etc. The only religion that could have possibly been established in any state or colony was Christianity.
By extension, the same freedom to worship extended to all faiths (Christianity gave them that freedom since true Christianity is non-coercive faith, and it is impossible for one man to dictate the moral beliefs of another - that is between each man and God), but the possibility of any faith other than Christianity being established as a state religion was beyond the realm of possibility. The founders were Christians (95% of them) but they were non-sectarian - know what that means? If you say the founders were speaking of other faiths, then post the quotes now. I don't recall seeing any such quotes. When the founders spoke of "religion" - they meant Christianity; when they spoke of "Providence" - they meant the Christian God actively moving in the affairs of mankind. I am ready to debate this with you and I am ready to bury you - let's go lugsoul!!! Let's see who has their history straight!
Mode of worship - liturgy, ceremony - Christian reference. You are the brainwashed spiritually blind enemy of every freedom-loving American.
From now on, whenever I see you chiming in on these forums about separation of church and state issues, I am going to aggressively go after you and do everything I can to rip your position to pieces. I am going to make you back up every assertion, every revisionist lie with EVIDENCE. So, unless you want to be embarrassed, you better have your ducks in a row in the future. You are the enemy of the 1st Amendment.
Of course, the Founders were so STUPID that they thought the word RELIGION meant ONLY THEIR RELIGION. Why can't everyone see that with your clarity?
As Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom:
"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."
Not the Constitution, I'm sure you'll say. He is a Founder, though - wouldn't you agree? As for the Constitution, let's go straight to the heart of it - a ratifying convention. From North Carolina, the good Mr. Iredell:
"A very remarkable instance also happened in England, about forty years ago, of a person who was admitted to take an oath according to the rites of his own country, though he was a heathen. He was an East Indian, who had a great suit in chancery, and his answer upon oath to a bill filed against him was absolutely necessary. Not believing either in the Old or New Testament, he could not be sworn in the accustomed manner, but was sworn according to the form of the Gentoo religion, which he professed, by touching the foot of a priest. It appeared that, according to the tenets of this religion, its members believed in a Supreme Being, and in a future state of rewards and punishments. It was accordingly held by the judges, upon great consideration, that the oath ought to be received; they considering that it was probable those of that religion were equally bound in conscience by an oath according to their form of swearing, as they themselves were by one of theirs; and that it would be a reproach to the justice of the country, if a man, merely because he was of a different religion from their own, should be denied redress of an injury he had sustained."
Hmmm - it seems Mr. Iredell is talking about a man of the Hindu religion. How can that be if such is NOT a religion?
Okay, what say Governor Johnston?
"True religion is derived from a much higher source than human laws. When any attempt is made, by any government, to restrain men's consciences, no good consequence can possibly follow. It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans, pagans, &c., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President, or other high office, but in one of two cases. First, if the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves. Another case is, if any persons of such descriptions should, notwithstanding their religion, acquire the confidence and esteem of the people of America by their good conduct and practice of virtue, they may be chosen."
I really don't give a rat's ass what you have to say about these quotes. There are dozens more - I've even posted them to you before. You'll ignore them now just as you did then. But they conclusively show that you don't know what you are talking about, and that your view that "religion" and "Christianity" were interchangeable in the minds of the Founders is certainly and inarguably false.
I have no need to waste time with an idiot. I'll not post to you again.
Hey don't run - I am armed with all the facts and quotes and I am ready to embarrass you. Name at least 15 Non-Christians from amongst the founders. Jefferson was not a Christian even though he called himself one (but he had nothing to do with the 1st amendment and did not attend the Const. Convention either). I'll help you: Jefferson, Franklin, Ethan Allen, Thomas Payne, Henry Dearborn. Now, name 10 more. I guarantee you can't do it. 95% were Christians - you would be hard-pressed to find a church today with that percentage of Christians.
Run away you revisionist dolt.
You don't get off that easy. Is this the best you got? If America ever "lays aside the Christian religion it may happen" - no contradiction there: You can kiss this republic good-bye pal! That is exactly what the founders said. Adams said the Constitution was written for "a moral and religous people and is inadequate for the govt of any other." Washington said in his farewell address and religion was THE basis for morality and by "religion" he was not referring to hindus or mohamedans! How do I know? His writings prove his beliefs beyond a shadow of a doubt!
Jefferson's quote does not contradict what I said at all. Johnston's quote doesn't either really. It is clear that our founders got their ideas of Law from Blackstone, Puffendorf, Grotious, and Vattel - all Christian thinkers who said the source of Law is ultimately divine biblical law. John Jay said that ONLY Christians should be elected to office. A project was conducted in the 1970s wherein 15,000 of the founders writings from 1760-1805 were examined to see where they got their ideas for government (i.e. who they quoted most often). The top 3 were Blackstone, Locke, and Montesquieu - all Christian thinkers. It's no secret that the D of I is Locke's ideas in many respects! Locke was a PURITAN. Also, 32% of all direct quotes during this period were from the BIBLE. Need the reference for the study?
You can also read Alexis de Toqueville who toured this country in early 1800s. He said that in America the notions of liberty and Christianity were inseparable! This was a neutral observer. He observed that America was a nation founded on the Christian religion. I would note that Mohamedans have no virtue as history clearly tells us - they are violent and warlike and this worldview is not conducive to freedom. Look at any muslim country and that is plain to see. Only in Christianity is there freedom. In secular humanism, one finds mass graves - Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, Kim Il Sung - so much for your religion!
The only thing you prove with your posts is how deranged you are.
Now, you said that the Founders didn't recognize non-Christian religions. I proved conclusively that they did. Oh, and on your "abandoning the Christian faith" comment, you need to brush up on your reading skills. Seems things have gone a bit downhill since summa cum laude.
That's it. I'm done with you. You are discredited, your posts mean nothing, and I have no time to respond to your braying at the moon. FUEM.
http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/news/state/7254764.htm
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