Posted on 11/14/2003 11:20:34 PM PST by ETERNAL WARMING
We are all connected at some level, and by enough people caring for others we are caught by others when we need it in the same manner we stop another's fall.
Good and evil are two faces of a coin. The coin does not exist if either face is missing. This is simplistic an answer, but often it is difficult to explain how we value our bad experiances, enemies, our failings because we learn from them, and gain appreciation for the good we wouldn't have if the bad were not there.
Evil will always exist as will good. They are to reliant on each other for either to go away. We work to strive for good amd to promote blessings, but we do not agree that the fight between the two broad concepts will ever come to a head with one vanquishing the other.
At some level they make the other half of that duality exist.
I of course do not concur that this is a de facto theocratic Republic. Christianity is an important player in life in these United States, but it is not the corner stone.
I have criticism of what the blindnesses and greeds many use Christianity and other religions - including mine - to justify and to enrich themselves at the expense of others; but I prefer not to go there.
I am not here to witness for my faith, or to anger others by creating misunderstanding or fears I am out to attack any faith.
I have talked on political boards for many years, and I know all to well that interlocutors need to know one another better and need to lay better foundation for a discussion like this to articulate some things I would like to say and to learn from others when they respond to my words, or I to theirs.
My immediate point here was to identify my viewpoint and religion so that down the road perhaps we could go there. It gave me some feeling of tension to be forthright about my faith here.
I am well aware it would have been far safer simply not to reveal my faith. But ultimately we do not learn or advance merely by being what on the surface appears to be the safe road.
Thanks for your imput and how you view there to be a paradox that prevents other religions from existing in the United States on the same level as Christianity.
I would like to explore that more in the future, but I have to get back to work soon today, and for now I feel I have done what I am comfortable in doing now in presenting my immediate take on this issue as a Wicca practioner.
I just disagree that we need to pay homage to all religions on the government level. Christainity is the corner stone to understanding the government and why it was set up the way it was. BTW, I do believe that a person does not need to be a Christan to be a good American, but we need to recognize our Christan roots here. You have them even though you are not a Christain.
Isaiah 55:10-11
10. As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11. so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
What are people doing praying at a legislative meeting anyway?
I had an out of body experience several years ago after an injury that left me near death. When I woke up out of the coma it was at the forefront of my mind very powerfully.
I knew very much after it that we exist after the mortal shell passes on. I have no doubt now at all on that point.
It made me more fearless and I worry much less about inevitable body death than I once did.
I have like many people had the temptation to posture as Christain for personal gain socially and economically. But I just cannot live so shallowly. I simply do not buy that faith.
It doesn't fit my world view, and though I have indeed suffered from shunning and animosity because I was not of a dominant faith I must follow what I believe.
If I die and suddenly am shown that Christianity, Islam, or any other faith is closer to the reality of things then my strongly held beliefs, I don't think that is something that ultimately would harm me - or any other not of the after death proven faith in a simular situation.
I refuse to believe the Goddess, the one who exists at the highest level of being would be so petty and malicious.
I seldom see a non Christain perspective offered in situations like we see in the story in this thread, so I wanted to share with you and others mine.
I did so in the spirit of enjoying reading the perspective on this from others from the Christain point of view and wishing to share mine.
I hope Roy does well in the aftermath of this, and I do truly respect his strenght of faith and resolve to act on belief and not posture merely for his personal gain.
I still think quite respectfully he is wrong.
Just so that last post is not so confusing because of the context of how I ended it I am obliged to post this to explain that. Apologies.
SURELY you KNOW the answer.......
Just LISTEN to what they pray!
2 Timothy 41. In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge:
2. Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.
3. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
4. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
I don't see the point of public servants beginning a meeting with a prayer unless they're trying to prove how "Christian" they are. Call me crazy, but I don't think that religion and public office mix very well.
Luke 18:9-14
9. To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable:
10. "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: `God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector.
12. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'
13. "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, `God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'
14. "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
Thanks for the interesting post. But I have given my position on religion a great deal of study and serious thought. FR is not the forum to go into detail in reference to this. Thank you for caring, and sharing, but I sleep well at night, thank you.
And this sort of posturing on refusal to believe due to deep convictions and faith found in another religion is prevalent in many many other faiths, not just Christianity.
It is a key element in the growth of member aspect of major religions. It is nothing new or uncommon at all.
Thabks again for sharing.
You are incorrect. The entire concept of a constitutional republic would be impossible without Christianity (or a religion just like it). Primitive animism does not have the philosophical basis to enable a concept like natural law to develop. Despite the term, a philosophy based on "natural" law requires certain underlying assumptions (the inherently sinful nature of man, the role of tradition and reason in preserving society, the primacy of human solutions to problems...there was a reason why many of the Founding Fathers had Deistic tendencies, etc.). No primarily animistic society has ever developed a political or social system of sufficient intellectual complexity or grounded in the both the rights of the individual and in a common law. It required the combination of the monotheistic tradition of Christianity and the polytheistic germanic pagans to produce an intellectual strain to spawn the ideology of our Founding Fathers. I am amazed at how easily people think they can just discount the cicrumstances and intellectual traditions that established this nation, and how they feel that they can just replace what has worked with whatever they feel like, and have the outcome be the same...
It sound an awful lot like you are telling me I am, not asking.
I am Bicycle Thug. I can't post for him and advocate what he advocated because I paid very close attention to recent writings explaining in detail what a troll and trolling is, why Jim Robinson excludes levels of discussion and diolog, and what the mission statement of this site is.
And I live with it and accept that.
Now, you most certainly may think as you wish. You will anyways. But I refuse to dislike you, or begrudge you if your post is but the visible part of an iceberg moving slowly in line to take out the hull of the suspected S.S. Stink Weasel plowing the waves onward towards port. I will not be manipulated to be a proxy poster for him, or get into whatever running battle you have with him.
Thank you for sharing, but with respect a bit of advice; don't rent out space in your head to that guy Lurker.
There are far more important things in the world to worry about the him or what he is or isn't doing right now.
*GASP* I surely hope that is not indicative of you being his spokesman now. I am not divorced from the good elements of Christianity I learned in my youth, and my faith supports ethical behavior that promotes respect and love for all humanity and the thin layer of precious life on this blue pearl of a planet set in the black of space so otherwise empty.
If there is indeed a devil, I'm not giving him much to work on to leverage my soul out from under me.
Seeking spiritual enlightenment, living life responsibly and preparing for death is not a Christain monopoly. I am not damned merely for finding a different path than you.
Ugh! generic prayer, the mystery meat in the sandwich of religion. I still prefer everyone getting the shot at offering their prayer at the commencement of business.
Look at the second part of this sentence for the core of the intent of the founding fathers:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof... "
The Founding Fathers wanted free expression of religion in both the public and private domains. Equal standing is how they saw the best way to keep one faith from trumping another. The Constitution has it's checks and balances here as well as in how power is shared by the three branches of government.
All religions should be allowed expression as long as said expression and the given status of any religion doesn't trump any other. For those who say, "What about the Muslims and other religions? Should they be allowed to publicly express their faith and belief in their concept of God?" Of course they should. All religions are to be celebrated and publicly honored by sharing expressions of faith. It's really not that hard.
The United States is is meant to abide by the concept of religious toleration.
It actually goes beyond toleration; it's really about love for your fellow man. That at it's heart is what freedom of religion is about.
To try to jockey or leverage one faith above or better than another in out matrix or law government and social custom invites conflict and fratricide.
The Founders knew this, and that is exactly why they wrote up what they did about religion in the U.S. Constitution.
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