Posted on 11/14/2003 11:20:34 PM PST by ETERNAL WARMING
Hmm... you just signed up today, taking on the namesake of your hero.
Where's my can of Troll-Be-Gone??
Is it now? I see. Well, it doesn't help Christains gain converts and prevent back sliding without trying to seal that back door. You would likely judge me cynical, but people who lived prior to Christianity's popularization would not be slighted with a trip to a place like Hell merely because of when they were alive.
The posture that it takes being a good solid Christian only to guarantee a fruitful afterlife - where one gets all the rewards denied them in life that makes up for being say infirmed, destitute, or tragically dying young - is too pat, to full of mechanisms of assimulation into a very tight mindset of what society should be like for me.
People are by and large too materialistic and convenience minded, taught to be good workers at their jobs and decidedly are not encouraged to be critical thinkers. The control and channeling involved with particular aspects of Christianity is a big turnoff to me.
I didn't become Wicca on a whim or without quite abit of of process. I am duly grateful for all the good things I learned having been raised Catholic, but I came clean after always going through the motions at something I had no belief in or faith for. There was no way I could not leave that church and explore religions in general much better to satisfy the questions I had and wanted answers to.
I feel much better about having done so too. I am glad, truly I am that your religion works for you and so many others.
But the point I an trying to make is we have freedom of religion that levels the playing field because the same thing that works for you in your religion works for others in theirs.
Ultimately what happens when I die will happen. I will never do anything but seriously doubt what anything another mortal human being tells me will happen and why it will happen after death will not be colored by need for cultural assimulation, and by their own personal fears and self interest.
You never replyed to my #43 (above). This is something I'm very curious about.
Blessing animals on a particular day to honor a patron saint for example. Or in how they use holy water and incense.
I was not offended, but I noted how fast offense can be enabled. It seemed to me the lack of a commonality of understanding of elements of my religion could easily press hot buttons here.
I would far prefer to go into this realm on a thread in the Religion forum because this part of the topic of God/Goddess, spirits, and ritual and communication with those levels beyond our level as sentient animals.
Now as far as piercing goes, the giving up part of the body in renewal is done in many religions. You likely would find the flesh ripping of the Sun Dance horrifying. But I understand the power it involks and why they do that particular religious service the way that they do.
God force and spirits ar all around us. Humans have been working out protocols and forms of ritual and communication with unseen spiritual force as long as there has been primates like us. Other intelligent mammals to much the same. Of that I have no doubt.
As a member of my faith for example I see recognition of the power of eagles in the use of them even here on Free Republic.
They are raptors that represents many human traits. I can see what values and traits seen as being important in a person by those traits imposed upon such a sacred animal. The eagle is seen as courageous, swift, and strong. He has great foresight and knows everything. Native American religions says that "In an eagle there is all the wisdom of the world."
It is important to respect and honor the higher levels of God - as you would call her - and have respect for spiritual force.
I would say my last post had part of the answer to your question in it as I put some of my perspective of my amazement at some of the aspects of Christianity, how it is used in our culture and what it represents.
It was meant to mirror the mirth and amusement I saw posted in the aftermath of that ritual laid bare of context and understanding of what believers and participants get out of it and why they do it.
Christians are very spiritual people and I respect that religion. Respect is a very powerful incantation in and of itself. That is why respect for religious diversity was involked by the Founding Fathers.
Many of our ceremonies celebrates renewal and the spiritual rebirth of participants and their relatives as well as the regeneration of the living earth in all her parts. We use many tools in the world to unlock and free positive and good aspects of ourselves and the spiritual force we are surrounded by. Across the board, many religious rituals of all faiths involve sacrifice and supplication to insure harmony between all living beings and the unseen.
I would add too that as in any human religion, we have those who would use Wicca religion in ways that are exploitive and silly. But that is no more shocking a truth than how some use Christianity for self benefit and to exploit, and some Christains are incredibly unselfish and give far more to others then they take for themselves.
Christains have many sects and groups whose rituals, dogma and understanding of things vary from one another. The same is true in Wicca.
Believe me, some Wicca practitioners I avoid as much as some Christians might cross the street to avoid say someone like Jim Bakker.
Hope that answers some of your question.
I'll ignore the ad hominem attack and assure you that even though I am atheist, I know what a prayer is. I was raised Catholic and Jewish...odd combination, which is probably why I eschewed religion. Both religions involve a great deal of prayer, as you probably are already aware.
What I have italicized above to me is not a prayer. Doesn't sound like a prayer, unless she's worshipping Councilwoman Jane Doe.
OK.
I sorry about the confusion about GOD that has arisen from differing points of view in your childhood.
That's ok...I'm not.
I would hope that you are really NOT atheistic, but merely agnostic. I was, at one time, so thoughly confused that I threw up my hands and figured I'd NEVER understand--too many things seemingly contradictory: I cannot resolve them.
I don't believe in God, but normally I'm not silly enough to say that God doesn't exist, because I can't prove that he/she doesn't. The religious can't prove that he/she does. It's up to the individual what they want to believe. I did try. Being raised Catholic and Jewish can be very confusing. I'd say my upbringing was about 70% Catholic and 30% Jewish. I didn't have a bat mitzvah...I was confirmed as Catholic instead. We didn't go to synagogue AND mass every week. We usually went to mass but went to synagogue infrequently. In college I dropped Catholicism and became a practicing Jew (I did not have to convert...I am considered Jewish by Jewish people) but eventually dropped Judaism as well. When I dropped Catholicism I did not believe that Jesus was the savior and was skeptical that he had ever existed, but as a Jew I figured out that I didn't really believe in god either. Believing in god is a pre-requisite to being a Jew!
I had NO formal 'church' upbringing. What I knew about God and Christ was absorbed from society.
That's often how it goes. I had many conversations with priests and rabbis and friends about god, but I never discussed it with my family.
The councilwoman illustration was to show that anything said about her mentor did NOT force anyone within earshot to feel the same: therefore anything she might say about GOD surely would affect the audience similarly.
There is a difference, though. Complimenting a mentor is not the same thing as opening a meeting of pubicly elected officials with a prayer. These elected officials are supposed to represent all of their constituents, not just Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Wiccan ones. I don't think prayer of any sort has a place in a meeting like that. I don't really care what people do in their free time; if a publicly elected official wants to go to church/synagogue/whatever in their free time, it is their right to do so. However, their idea of religion should not enter into a meeting held by publicly elected officials. Period. Church and state should be kept separate.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.